2030 - what does this mean for kits ?
Discussion
Hi,
I've been pondering this since the announcement a while back.
" no more petrol or diesel vehicles are to be produced from 2030 " in the UK at least.
What does ths mean for kits ? are they finished unless hybrid or electric after this date ?
I am in the process of building a low volume production vehicle that arrived with me as a kit of all original parts from the factory( albeit not mass produced ) that never went through an IVA.
Each vehicle had its own IVA on completion exactly like the kits.
Are we all in the race to finish our beloved projects before 2030 ?
I've been pondering this since the announcement a while back.
" no more petrol or diesel vehicles are to be produced from 2030 " in the UK at least.
What does ths mean for kits ? are they finished unless hybrid or electric after this date ?
I am in the process of building a low volume production vehicle that arrived with me as a kit of all original parts from the factory( albeit not mass produced ) that never went through an IVA.
Each vehicle had its own IVA on completion exactly like the kits.
Are we all in the race to finish our beloved projects before 2030 ?
It may change between now and then, but I seem to remember that IVA isn't configured to test electric vehicles (nothing with a voltage above 42v I think) so if you can't register a kit with an ICE engine, and you can't register one with electric propulsion, then yes that's the end of the kit industry, rebodies aside.
Lots of time between now and 2030 but on the face of it I'd be surprised if legislators felt the kit market deserved an exemption. It's a shrinking industry already, not a great leap to expect that there won't be that many manufacturers left by 2030 to shout up and try to protect their interests.
Lots of time between now and 2030 but on the face of it I'd be surprised if legislators felt the kit market deserved an exemption. It's a shrinking industry already, not a great leap to expect that there won't be that many manufacturers left by 2030 to shout up and try to protect their interests.
There's always been low volume or individual exemptions which allow kit cars (and even those making short run production cars) to exist. All the requirements for airbags, ESP, emissions controls, etc either don't exist or are tied to the age of donor components.
I'm not expecting it to be any different in 2030, although I am hoping for a proper route to IVA something interesting and electric.
I'm not expecting it to be any different in 2030, although I am hoping for a proper route to IVA something interesting and electric.
We have been discussing this in other forums and currently (having talked to a number of kit producers) no one has been communicated with yet. As it stands currently, as of 2030 you will not be able to road register a kit with an IC engine and at this point in time you can't submit an electric vehicle for an IVA test (in the official jargon, they are 'outside scope').
With less than 9 years remaining there needs to be some clarification on this.
As a previous poster has stated, one can only hope that there will be some exemptions but I wouldn't hold your breath.
This will become a political 'hot potato' as no one in power seems to want to talk about how they are going to deal with the falling drop in revenue from road tax, the billions that will be lost in fuel tax & VAT and how the 100's of thousands of cars in towns and cities that are parked by the side of the road are going to be charged.
The whole scenario has long way to go!
With less than 9 years remaining there needs to be some clarification on this.
As a previous poster has stated, one can only hope that there will be some exemptions but I wouldn't hold your breath.
This will become a political 'hot potato' as no one in power seems to want to talk about how they are going to deal with the falling drop in revenue from road tax, the billions that will be lost in fuel tax & VAT and how the 100's of thousands of cars in towns and cities that are parked by the side of the road are going to be charged.
The whole scenario has long way to go!
[quote=Steve Dean
This will become a political 'hot potato' as no one in power seems to want to talk about how they are going to deal with the falling drop in revenue from road tax, the billions that will be lost in fuel tax & VAT and how the 100's of thousands of cars in towns and cities that are parked by the side of the road are going to be charged.
The whole scenario has long way to go!
[/quote]
Agree with the above - this could cause problems for both urban areas (no charging facility = no car) and rural areas (demand on limited local supply cables). As for the VED, this will just be gathered by either an annual tax, a tax at point of sale, or maybe even 'special' high-cost electricity (some sort of knowledge that the car is being charged c/f oven being used?) I'll be surprised if it's not possible - I can't even refill the ink or remove the cartridge from my inkjet printer without the ink police being aware
This will become a political 'hot potato' as no one in power seems to want to talk about how they are going to deal with the falling drop in revenue from road tax, the billions that will be lost in fuel tax & VAT and how the 100's of thousands of cars in towns and cities that are parked by the side of the road are going to be charged.
The whole scenario has long way to go!
[/quote]
Agree with the above - this could cause problems for both urban areas (no charging facility = no car) and rural areas (demand on limited local supply cables). As for the VED, this will just be gathered by either an annual tax, a tax at point of sale, or maybe even 'special' high-cost electricity (some sort of knowledge that the car is being charged c/f oven being used?) I'll be surprised if it's not possible - I can't even refill the ink or remove the cartridge from my inkjet printer without the ink police being aware
Nah, there will be an exemption under a certain amount of units. The industry is worth a fair bit vs the environmental impact being very low.
Expect to see a lot of ICE coachbuilt cars on a shared platform come to market as well.
The sky won’t simply fall in! But if it gives you something to worry about for the next 9 years then worry away.
Politically the average joe doesn’t even know what a kit car is so no one will notice.
Expect to see a lot of ICE coachbuilt cars on a shared platform come to market as well.
The sky won’t simply fall in! But if it gives you something to worry about for the next 9 years then worry away.
Politically the average joe doesn’t even know what a kit car is so no one will notice.
Bertrum said:
Nah, there will be an exemption under a certain amount of units. The industry is worth a fair bit vs the environmental impact being very low.
Expect to see a lot of ICE coachbuilt cars on a shared platform come to market as well.
The sky won’t simply fall in! But if it gives you something to worry about for the next 9 years then worry away.
Politically the average joe doesn’t even know what a kit car is so no one will notice.
I'd like to think you're right (and it's certainly not keeping me awake at night as I haven't had a dog in the game for 18 years now, just an ongoing interest) butExpect to see a lot of ICE coachbuilt cars on a shared platform come to market as well.
The sky won’t simply fall in! But if it gives you something to worry about for the next 9 years then worry away.
Politically the average joe doesn’t even know what a kit car is so no one will notice.
- the kit industry continues to get smaller, employ fewer people, turn over less money and consequently is less and less influential
- the main demographic who remain interested in kit cars is ageing, and while younger kit builders are out there they are increasingly a minority
- there's more interest in rebodies now than there has been for decades due to IVA, which in turn reduces the number of kit manufacturers who are affected by a ban on new ICE engines
Yes being small can mean flying under the radar, but in order to fly under the radar you need to be able to take off, which means get the exemptions, which you're less likely to get if you're small.
Banning ICE is about being seen to be doing something, not about tackling the main emitters (population numbers, planes, shipping). So how likely is it that legislators will happily allow loopholes for "high performance" "toy" cars for "wealthy" people to still have ICE engines? (you can imagine the headlines). Doesn't fit the narratives of reducing emissions, improving air quality and reducing speeds / accidents / deaths.
And it's nice to think that there could be some rolling chassis / ICE engine manufacturers out there gagging to make a platform for kit manufacturers to put a body on, but to me that's likely to be high-end products at eyewatering cost, not 5000 units p/a of a last-gen MX5 on a crash-tested homologated chassis and fit your choice of GRP body, some toggle switches and half an acre of chequer plate.
Would it even be possible to register a car on the road in 2035 say, unless you have forward looking radar and collision avoidance systems fitted? The way it's going, I think it's unlikely.
If a market remains, if an exemption could be obtained, if it would be possible to buy a low cost low volume ICE platform and coachbuild it, road register it etc, that's great and I'm all for it - but I don't think it's a goer.
FNG said:
///but
- the kit industry continues to get smaller, employ fewer people, turn over less money and consequently is less and less influential
- the main demographic who remain interested in kit cars is ageing, and while younger kit builders are out there they are increasingly a minority
- there's more interest in rebodies now than there has been for decades due to IVA, which in turn reduces the number of kit manufacturers who are affected by a ban on new ICE engines
A couple of further points:- the kit industry continues to get smaller, employ fewer people, turn over less money and consequently is less and less influential
- the main demographic who remain interested in kit cars is ageing, and while younger kit builders are out there they are increasingly a minority
- there's more interest in rebodies now than there has been for decades due to IVA, which in turn reduces the number of kit manufacturers who are affected by a ban on new ICE engines
- From a Government perspective, banning ICE kit cars does not necessarily mean banning kit cars. The IVA regs can easily be re-written to accommodate EV's. It's simply a matter of kit car manufacturers developing products that are compliant with the new rules.
- As I have mentioned on the Caterham trhead, there is an organisation specifically set up to support niche vehicle manufacturers (Niche Vehicle Network), who has been pushing the LZEV agenda for years. It has free membership, and companies like Caterham, Westfield, Ariel and Morgan are all members. Substantial govvernment funding has been made available for member companies to undertake research and product development related to LZEV technologies and lightweighting. Frankly, anyone who couldn't be bothered to join this organisation, or to take advantage of the funding available, has only themselves to blame.
Equus said:
- From a Government perspective, banning ICE kit cars does not necessarily mean banning kit cars. The IVA regs can easily be re-written to accommodate EV's. It's simply a matter of kit car manufacturers developing products that are compliant with the new rules.
I was having a little look at the regulations today and it doesn’t actually say they are going to ban ICE just that the emissions need to be zero.
The assumption is that this is via electrification. When actually biofuels achieve the same thing. I can understand that this would be a confusing message to the casual punter, but with the right investment from the likes of Porsche into biofuels they could provide the lifeline required.
The assumption is that this is via electrification. When actually biofuels achieve the same thing. I can understand that this would be a confusing message to the casual punter, but with the right investment from the likes of Porsche into biofuels they could provide the lifeline required.
Fastpedeller said:
Equus said:
Actually, they don't.
Biofuels are not zero emissions.
Electric isn't either.Biofuels are not zero emissions.
You're confusing zero emissions with zero carbon footprint.
EV's certainly have a carbon footprint in terms of embodied energy, and may have a carbon footprint in terms of the energy they use in running (unless the electricity they use is generated by zero carbon means - which our grid electricity increasingly is), but they have zero emissions (ie. they emit no exhaust gases at point of use).
The exhaust from biofuels is about 4 times cleaner than that of fossil fuels, but it does still contain pollutants.
Equus said:
FNG said:
///but
- the kit industry continues to get smaller, employ fewer people, turn over less money and consequently is less and less influential
- the main demographic who remain interested in kit cars is ageing, and while younger kit builders are out there they are increasingly a minority
- there's more interest in rebodies now than there has been for decades due to IVA, which in turn reduces the number of kit manufacturers who are affected by a ban on new ICE engines
A couple of further points:- the kit industry continues to get smaller, employ fewer people, turn over less money and consequently is less and less influential
- the main demographic who remain interested in kit cars is ageing, and while younger kit builders are out there they are increasingly a minority
- there's more interest in rebodies now than there has been for decades due to IVA, which in turn reduces the number of kit manufacturers who are affected by a ban on new ICE engines
- From a Government perspective, banning ICE kit cars does not necessarily mean banning kit cars. The IVA regs can easily be re-written to accommodate EV's. It's simply a matter of kit car manufacturers developing products that are compliant with the new rules.
- As I have mentioned on the Caterham trhead, there is an organisation specifically set up to support niche vehicle manufacturers (Niche Vehicle Network), who has been pushing the LZEV agenda for years. It has free membership, and companies like Caterham, Westfield, Ariel and Morgan are all members. Substantial govvernment funding has been made available for member companies to undertake research and product development related to LZEV technologies and lightweighting. Frankly, anyone who couldn't be bothered to join this organisation, or to take advantage of the funding available, has only themselves to blame.
It's a not inconsiderable investment to get up and running with EV powertrains and at the moment a product wouldn't be registerable. So unless fully funded by government grants, I doubt the smaller guys can afford the time and investment to develop an EV car when it's unsaleable and they don't know whether they're developing a low volume production car or a home build kit car.
Edited by FNG on Friday 5th March 09:54
Taking the point above about petrol risks vs EV.
As someone who lost a car to fire last year when working on the fuel tank, due to a bolt shearing, I know very well there's a risk - but I was unscathed and in many or probably most similar instances, you'd expect to get away with it or perhaps lose your eyebrows - accepting there are much worse outcomes too.
But if you make a mistake with 400v, it's highly likely to kill you. And if you have an accident that ruptures a battery enough that it runs away, the fire spreads much quicker than a fuel fire - plus the large volume of hot gas released under massive pressure can kill you more readily than a petrol fire too.
Many / most ICE vehicle accidents don't result in tank rupture let alone conflagration let alone loss of life due to fire. The additional risk can't be overstated but it's often underestimated.
As someone who lost a car to fire last year when working on the fuel tank, due to a bolt shearing, I know very well there's a risk - but I was unscathed and in many or probably most similar instances, you'd expect to get away with it or perhaps lose your eyebrows - accepting there are much worse outcomes too.
But if you make a mistake with 400v, it's highly likely to kill you. And if you have an accident that ruptures a battery enough that it runs away, the fire spreads much quicker than a fuel fire - plus the large volume of hot gas released under massive pressure can kill you more readily than a petrol fire too.
Many / most ICE vehicle accidents don't result in tank rupture let alone conflagration let alone loss of life due to fire. The additional risk can't be overstated but it's often underestimated.
FNG said:
I'm pleased to see that funding is avaiable but your list contains the big players.
I'm a member of NVN too. Pretty much anyone can join (provided they are involved with appropriate business activities). Membership is free, and the funding is available to anyone who puts together an appropriate application.I listed Morgan, Westfield, Caterham and Ariel because those are companies everyone knows. I could equally have listed a bunch of companies that you'd never heard of (including the one I joined under the auspices of).
Fair enough, good to hear and thanks for the reply.
It's something I would like to get to know more about, if I'm honest - I work on EV installations and fuel cell development and it's all interesting for the kit / low volume industry, which is where my heart is - I just don't have a company operating in that field, if that's the terms of membership.
It's something I would like to get to know more about, if I'm honest - I work on EV installations and fuel cell development and it's all interesting for the kit / low volume industry, which is where my heart is - I just don't have a company operating in that field, if that's the terms of membership.
FNG said:
Fair enough, good to hear and thanks for the reply.
It's something I would like to get to know more about, if I'm honest - I work on EV installations and fuel cell development and it's all interesting for the kit / low volume industry, which is where my heart is - I just don't have a company operating in that field, if that's the terms of membership.
You will be aware, I'm sure, of products like the Swindon Powertrain 'crate' EV packages?It's something I would like to get to know more about, if I'm honest - I work on EV installations and fuel cell development and it's all interesting for the kit / low volume industry, which is where my heart is - I just don't have a company operating in that field, if that's the terms of membership.
I suspect that these will be the future for a lot of specialist vehicle manufacturers.
I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to package these in such a way that they're pretty idiot-proof, with the equivalent of RCD's to isolate the incompetent and incautious from high voltages.
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