Neighbour and retaining garden wall
Discussion
Hi guys
Bit of a long one so bail out now if you’re not sure about the TLDR.
My mother in law lives in a bungalow. Next door is another bungalow. These two bungalows border a row of houses that are some 100m or so away at the other end of their gardens. These two bungalows have a retaining wall across their boundaries which is the whole width of the other house’s garden, holding back about 5ft ish of height change. Mother in law has been in the property since 1999 with no issues.
If it matters, the row of houses were built in the mid fifties and the bungalows at the back in 1962.
One particular house changed owners about 2 years ago and soon after moving in, they ripped out a bunch of bushes at the bottom of their garden, which were along the boundary wall, covering it.
Fast forward to now and the owner of this house has decided that the wall is dangerous. Could fall over at any minute. And have gone and got themselves a quote to fix it. Of course mr builder also thinks the wall needs replacing ASAP. They have sent a copy of the quote, it reads:
Remove existing ‘leaning’ wall
Dig new foundations
Build replacement wall from hollow blocks
Reinforce with steel rebar and infill with concrete
Backfill with 20mm gravel and install land drain
Build to 2ft higher than existing wall
Buold new decorative brick facade in front of concrete
Use decorative concrete cappings
£9950
A picture of the wall in question. Apologies for the poor quality but it’s the best I can do without trespassing on neighbours land.
The house who has got the quote has offered to pay 1/3 of the bill. Requesting 1/3 from the two bungalows. The justification here is that they are prepared to contribute because they wish for the facade and cappings to look nice and not be simple block work.
For what it’s worth Access is required over mother in laws driveway to build this. The other properties don’t have access for the equipment.
I guess my first question is, normally with retaining walls the person who’s land is retained is responsible? Given the older houses were built a decade before the bungalows, is it possible that they are responsible and somebody is playing games?
Mother in law has no idea where her deeds are. She’s calling the solicitor tmr hoping they have a copy so we can be 100% sure of boundary responsibility.
Second question, the wall looks fine to me! s
t pictures but anyone comment?
Third question, my mother in law is potless. Owns the house but is a class assistant on minimum wage, about to become a pensioner next year. This money is coming out of my pocket not hers. So, given she’s hard up, what if she just says no and leaves it? Any redress for the neighbour to force her?
Bit of a long one so bail out now if you’re not sure about the TLDR.
My mother in law lives in a bungalow. Next door is another bungalow. These two bungalows border a row of houses that are some 100m or so away at the other end of their gardens. These two bungalows have a retaining wall across their boundaries which is the whole width of the other house’s garden, holding back about 5ft ish of height change. Mother in law has been in the property since 1999 with no issues.
If it matters, the row of houses were built in the mid fifties and the bungalows at the back in 1962.
One particular house changed owners about 2 years ago and soon after moving in, they ripped out a bunch of bushes at the bottom of their garden, which were along the boundary wall, covering it.
Fast forward to now and the owner of this house has decided that the wall is dangerous. Could fall over at any minute. And have gone and got themselves a quote to fix it. Of course mr builder also thinks the wall needs replacing ASAP. They have sent a copy of the quote, it reads:
Remove existing ‘leaning’ wall
Dig new foundations
Build replacement wall from hollow blocks
Reinforce with steel rebar and infill with concrete
Backfill with 20mm gravel and install land drain
Build to 2ft higher than existing wall
Buold new decorative brick facade in front of concrete
Use decorative concrete cappings
£9950
A picture of the wall in question. Apologies for the poor quality but it’s the best I can do without trespassing on neighbours land.
The house who has got the quote has offered to pay 1/3 of the bill. Requesting 1/3 from the two bungalows. The justification here is that they are prepared to contribute because they wish for the facade and cappings to look nice and not be simple block work.
For what it’s worth Access is required over mother in laws driveway to build this. The other properties don’t have access for the equipment.
I guess my first question is, normally with retaining walls the person who’s land is retained is responsible? Given the older houses were built a decade before the bungalows, is it possible that they are responsible and somebody is playing games?
Mother in law has no idea where her deeds are. She’s calling the solicitor tmr hoping they have a copy so we can be 100% sure of boundary responsibility.
Second question, the wall looks fine to me! s
t pictures but anyone comment?Third question, my mother in law is potless. Owns the house but is a class assistant on minimum wage, about to become a pensioner next year. This money is coming out of my pocket not hers. So, given she’s hard up, what if she just says no and leaves it? Any redress for the neighbour to force her?
Edited by eltax91 on Thursday 4th March 21:13
Firstly there’s no rush so make them wait until you’ve checked out whatever you want. Secondly that shed is on the piss. Thirdly if they want to change it tell them they’re welcome to if they pay for the whole thing! But make sure you agree what the size and look of it or you’ll come back to a 6ft concrete block wall!
I am not a lawyer
I am not a lawyer
CoolHands said:
Firstly there’s no rush so make them wait until you’ve checked out whatever you want. Secondly that she’d is on the poss. Thirdly if they want to change it tell them they’re welcome to if they pay for the hole thing! But make sure you agree what the size and look of it or you’ll come back to a 6ft concrete block wall!
I am not a lawyer
Beauty here is that mother in law lives on the right of this fence. On top of you like. She can’t see the wall at all, unless you lean/ climb over the hedge I am not a lawyer
Assuming the shed is in the garden of one of the bungalows, I would be very tempted to poddle next door with a socially distanced bottle and agree that the firm response to the house owner will be a polite "we will not be contributing, thankyou".
Also not a surveyor, but the top slabs aside, that looks perfectly straight. The issue with getting into the why's and wherefore's of the walls attitude is that it invites further conversation around paying for it. Straight bat, "not from my wallet sunshine".
If house owner is desperate to change a wall they can't even see, then you can have conversations about how they think they're going to get access to do the work, as I suspect hanging by the ankles from a crane on the house lawn isnt going to fly, even for ten grand.
Third thoughts - is the house owner a vulnerable person? Someone is applying pressure - if its not your mum and her neighbour, it might be the builder.
Also not a surveyor, but the top slabs aside, that looks perfectly straight. The issue with getting into the why's and wherefore's of the walls attitude is that it invites further conversation around paying for it. Straight bat, "not from my wallet sunshine".
If house owner is desperate to change a wall they can't even see, then you can have conversations about how they think they're going to get access to do the work, as I suspect hanging by the ankles from a crane on the house lawn isnt going to fly, even for ten grand.
Third thoughts - is the house owner a vulnerable person? Someone is applying pressure - if its not your mum and her neighbour, it might be the builder.
Looks like someone wants a new higher wall and doesn’t want to pay £10k for it.
Angles are a bit funny but apart from the dodgy top slab thingies, it doesn’t seem too bad.
Tell them you’ll need to measure the movement of the wall over a period of time to assess how dangerous it actually is. 30 years should do it. Send them regular reports that it’s still standing.
Angles are a bit funny but apart from the dodgy top slab thingies, it doesn’t seem too bad.
Tell them you’ll need to measure the movement of the wall over a period of time to assess how dangerous it actually is. 30 years should do it. Send them regular reports that it’s still standing.
Thanks all. To be clear, the two bungalows are to the right of the picture. Behind the elevated fences. The length of the wall is about 50/50 split between two bungalows.
House who removed the trees is to the left. Owns the shed at the bottom on the garden. Removed trees which exposed the ‘ugly’ wall.
They site some cracking and mortar breakup of the 60+ years old wall and some bulging as the reason why the wall needs doing.
I was trying to tell my other in law earlier that the access to replace is fine, but the cost is £3333.
House who removed the trees is to the left. Owns the shed at the bottom on the garden. Removed trees which exposed the ‘ugly’ wall.
They site some cracking and mortar breakup of the 60+ years old wall and some bulging as the reason why the wall needs doing.
I was trying to tell my other in law earlier that the access to replace is fine, but the cost is £3333.
I wouldn't be agreeing to pay anything before seeing who's boundary it is. It's unusual for a later house to gain a boundary of an existing property, but the ownership may have stayed with the field that was there before your house I suppose.
I'd advise them to get more quotes. Good call with the bottle of wine approach from another poster.
Perhaps suggest that in return for access to do the works they should waive your m-i-l's contribution.
If the wall is "falling down" then make sure that they know they will also be reinstating your M-i-L's fence should it move during the works and they might want to make sure the builder is aware of this. Also if they use her garden for access thatthe garden is reinstated to its prior condition.
If necessary measure to each post from another permanent feature in her garden before work commences - if it ever does.
I'd advise them to get more quotes. Good call with the bottle of wine approach from another poster.
Perhaps suggest that in return for access to do the works they should waive your m-i-l's contribution.
If the wall is "falling down" then make sure that they know they will also be reinstating your M-i-L's fence should it move during the works and they might want to make sure the builder is aware of this. Also if they use her garden for access thatthe garden is reinstated to its prior condition.
If necessary measure to each post from another permanent feature in her garden before work commences - if it ever does.
If anything they should be paying half of a purely functional retaining wall of the same height, given the proportion of wall they border, any increase in height and decorative facing is down to them as they get to enjoy it.
Even that assumes it is a shared border, it is entirely possible the wall was built so their property could have a flatter garden on an originally sloping site.
Even that assumes it is a shared border, it is entirely possible the wall was built so their property could have a flatter garden on an originally sloping site.
Lots of assumptions here but
- assume land registry boundary runs down between the left wall and the right fence.
- so the wall is on the land of the house. And the fence is on the land of the bungalows.
- then that wall is responsibility of house (and fence is responsibility of the bungalows)
I can't see any reason for your MIL to help. It is not her land. It is not her wall. She cannot see the wall. The wall is functional???
No doubt Equus or similar will be along soon to tell me I'm talking utter bks or maybe even say I'm right.
- assume land registry boundary runs down between the left wall and the right fence.
- so the wall is on the land of the house. And the fence is on the land of the bungalows.
- then that wall is responsibility of house (and fence is responsibility of the bungalows)
I can't see any reason for your MIL to help. It is not her land. It is not her wall. She cannot see the wall. The wall is functional???
No doubt Equus or similar will be along soon to tell me I'm talking utter b
ks or maybe even say I'm right.Edited by CharlesElliott on Thursday 4th March 22:24
Thanks chaps. Trying to visualise this for you.
Mother in law = yellow
Other bungalow = purple
House that is 5ft lower and asking for wall = green
Wall in question = red
Mother in Le doesn’t know what the actual boundary is. But she ‘thinks’ she remembers it’s the wall. The wall runs her entire boundary, albeit through changes of angle, bordering lots of other gardens
Mother in law = yellow
Other bungalow = purple
House that is 5ft lower and asking for wall = green
Wall in question = red
Mother in Le doesn’t know what the actual boundary is. But she ‘thinks’ she remembers it’s the wall. The wall runs her entire boundary, albeit through changes of angle, bordering lots of other gardens
From the photos, only problem I can see is the copes could do with resetting, the wall itself looks fine - brick faces look OK, no mortar joints falling apart, no massive lean or collapse.
I'd be politely suggesting if they want a shiny new wall, pay for it themselves.
eta -
That's not 5ft tall, it is was it would be 2/3rd the height of that shed. Being generous, 10 courses-ish, call it 900mm.
They want a new shiny wall, and the neighbours to foot the bill...
Build to 2ft higher than existing wall
Build new decorative brick facade in front of concrete
Use decorative concrete cappings
I'd be politely suggesting if they want a shiny new wall, pay for it themselves.
eta -
That's not 5ft tall, it is was it would be 2/3rd the height of that shed. Being generous, 10 courses-ish, call it 900mm.
They want a new shiny wall, and the neighbours to foot the bill...
Build to 2ft higher than existing wall
Build new decorative brick facade in front of concrete
Use decorative concrete cappings
Edited by shtu on Thursday 4th March 22:32
Edited by shtu on Thursday 4th March 22:34
eltax91 said:
Thanks chaps. Trying to visualise this for you.
Mother in law = yellow
Other bungalow = purple
House that is 5ft lower and asking for wall = green
Wall in question = red
Mother in Le doesn’t know what the actual boundary is. But she ‘thinks’ she remembers it’s the wall. The wall runs her entire boundary, albeit through changes of angle, bordering lots of other gardens
With the retaining wall bordering 5 other properties lower than your MiL & the other bungalow, wouldn't it make sense that before they were built, the 2 bungalows plots were raised to level off by use of the retaining wall being built, there by the probability being that the wall was built on the 2 bungalows land, so it is your MiL's?Mother in law = yellow
Other bungalow = purple
House that is 5ft lower and asking for wall = green
Wall in question = red
Mother in Le doesn’t know what the actual boundary is. But she ‘thinks’ she remembers it’s the wall. The wall runs her entire boundary, albeit through changes of angle, bordering lots of other gardens
Dromedary66 said:
I wouldn't be paying for that wall. Preposterous.
If you're worried maybe worth spending £3 for the title plan, although they don't always have the boundary owners marked.
She’s got a copy of the land registry title. Just a red line on an extremely zoomed out scale. No way to know if the boundary is the fence or the wall (mother in law believes from 22 years ago remembering it’s the wall) and no ‘T’ markings on the document. If you're worried maybe worth spending £3 for the title plan, although they don't always have the boundary owners marked.
Solicitors being contacted first thing to see if they have the original documents
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