TVR Zolder Continental Meeting 2020
Discussion
Terminator said:
The limit was 95db last time I went John; I was black flagged in the Aston and was not amused.
Neither was the noise marshall when I told him I was black/green colour blind, hence my carrying on for a further three laps before I came in
Zolder changed its limit to 98 dB nowNeither was the noise marshall when I told him I was black/green colour blind, hence my carrying on for a further three laps before I came in
The sensors are apparently at the start of the back straight (coming off a 85 degree right hander) and just after the top of the 2nd hill, which is a left hander kink. I would have thought they would be at the end of the straights, before the breaking zone, where you should be at maximum rpm, rather than accelerating in third gear at (I am guessing) probably 4750-5250 rpm going upwards?
In UK we usually measure dB using a sound meter on a 50 cm distance stick pointing at one exhaust (so it will pick up some noise from the other exhaust) on a static car, revved to that circa 5000rpm.
The Zolder limit is 98dB drive by.
Sound dB is governed by Inverse Square Law, which roughly suggests that sound decreases by 6dB each time you double the measuring distance. I do not know which side of the track the sensors are on, but I guess they must be at least 100cm from the track edge, maybe 200cm. So if your car is 110dB in UK; at Zolder it will be 104dB at 100cm and 98dBb at 200cm and that assumes you are right at the track edge; if you haven't got the racing line right, you could be 400cm (92dB) away from the sensor……..
That's the theory, but remember I am a second hand car salesman, so I am really thick! And I don't know exactly where the sensors are in relation to the circuit tarmac. Don't trust my maths above. And "drive by" is going to pick noise up from the tyres, the induction, the screaming passenger etc.
I have done Zolder in lots of different standard exhausted TVRs over the years no problem. Or like John Simpson says, if you know where to lift off...…...
In UK we usually measure dB using a sound meter on a 50 cm distance stick pointing at one exhaust (so it will pick up some noise from the other exhaust) on a static car, revved to that circa 5000rpm.
The Zolder limit is 98dB drive by.
Sound dB is governed by Inverse Square Law, which roughly suggests that sound decreases by 6dB each time you double the measuring distance. I do not know which side of the track the sensors are on, but I guess they must be at least 100cm from the track edge, maybe 200cm. So if your car is 110dB in UK; at Zolder it will be 104dB at 100cm and 98dBb at 200cm and that assumes you are right at the track edge; if you haven't got the racing line right, you could be 400cm (92dB) away from the sensor……..
That's the theory, but remember I am a second hand car salesman, so I am really thick! And I don't know exactly where the sensors are in relation to the circuit tarmac. Don't trust my maths above. And "drive by" is going to pick noise up from the tyres, the induction, the screaming passenger etc.
I have done Zolder in lots of different standard exhausted TVRs over the years no problem. Or like John Simpson says, if you know where to lift off...…...
Personally, I'm more concerned about the 'timing' element of things. This certainly invalidates my TDay insurance.
Furthermore, the people I have spoken to about this event - it had been on my list of 'to do's' - all appeared pathalogical about how dangerous TDays are. Someone 'will' crash into my car, no repsect, no rules etc...... Yet, when I ask them what were the driver briefing / rules are for the Zolder meet they are non-existant. You're free to 'throw it up the inside'. Overtake how ever you like irregardless of what the car infront might be doing.
Not putting me off, but I do have some concerns - whereas I don't on TDays.
Furthermore, the people I have spoken to about this event - it had been on my list of 'to do's' - all appeared pathalogical about how dangerous TDays are. Someone 'will' crash into my car, no repsect, no rules etc...... Yet, when I ask them what were the driver briefing / rules are for the Zolder meet they are non-existant. You're free to 'throw it up the inside'. Overtake how ever you like irregardless of what the car infront might be doing.
Not putting me off, but I do have some concerns - whereas I don't on TDays.
Hi Ginkent - You are right. If you can get noise tested before you go is probably the way forward. If you have just changed the back box to a sports back box, buy/borrow a secondhand standard back box, especially if you think you might do more track days, as the noise rules are only going one way. At Zolder, you see Tuscan/Sagaris owners turning up and switching their end cans (but it's obviously fairly easy on those cars). I have however asked the TVRCCNL to clarify their track refunds policy for people who get black flagged for this next event (info to follow).
Hi MkIfan - There is a joining booklet giving track driving/overtaking instructions. (Yes, which I guess people don't read properly.) Cars are tested (unlike UK) before the trackday and there, they are pretty keep on engine mounts/fuel lines etc. If you come and see rotten driving on track, let the TVRCCNL know and they will do something about it.
Hi MkIfan - There is a joining booklet giving track driving/overtaking instructions. (Yes, which I guess people don't read properly.) Cars are tested (unlike UK) before the trackday and there, they are pretty keep on engine mounts/fuel lines etc. If you come and see rotten driving on track, let the TVRCCNL know and they will do something about it.
Drivers' briefing - to judge by Cadwell Park track behaviour on track, a good few weren't listening to the briefing, but it is still better than no briefing.
The problem with rules that are only adhered to by a select few is that those who do adhere are not expecting those who don't to do what they do - hence vastly increasing the risk of a collision.
Let me explain - if the booklet says "only overtake on the left and not in the braking zone" and I see a car approaching fast, I will expect him to overtake on the left, and then only if I am not about to take my racing line into the corner. It gets dangerous if I think he will go to the left, and accordingly move right to let him through, only to veer straight into his path as he tries to overtake me on the right.
The only bad driving accident I have seen involving two cars was where some total tosser in £50 worth of MGZT decided to overtake in the hairpin at Cadwell Park. He then couldn't make the corner and he virtually destroyed the £40,000 Lotus Exige who hadn't expected his manouver. Two car accidents on track days are very rare - that one, and a Cerbera running out of brakes at Cadwell in 2018, are the only two I have seen in 7 years of track days.
Track day insurance - UK drivers need to make very sure that the meeting is covered by their TD insurance. Track day insurance tends to need the event to be organised and run by a member of the ATDO. Well, mine does.
Noise limits - it is impossible to know if your car will pas 98dB(A) drive by. As explained above, it all depends on the positioning of the microphones in relation to the edge of the track.
Bedford Autodrome will have been driven by a number of us. The noise limits there are 101dB(A) static and 87.5 dB(A) drive by. I have failed the static before now, as my car until recently was always marginal. A damp cool morning could easily see me fail even 105dB(A). But I never failed the drive by. At Bedford, the microphones are well away from the track and clearly visible. Only an idiot would drive past them on the rev limiter and on that side of the track, when a higher gear and a different line was available.
So on the face of it, it should be easy to avoid breaking a 98dB(A) limit, but if the microphone was say right on the pit wall, on the same side of the track as the racing line, then it could be possible. The 105 dB(A) static test is at 3/4 max revs at 0.5 metres from the tail pipe. If the drive by meter was only 2 metres from your tail pipe, then if you were right on the limiter I can see you could trigger the 98 dB(A) drive by test even though the limit is not too far below the static limit.
Can anyone who has been to Zolder recently please update us with the position of the noise microphones, in terms of distance from the racing line?
I am keen to come, but would like a little more information about who is marshalling the day (Zolder track day team or Joe Public from TVRCCNL), and whether the club would consider organising a proper driver briefing and track day rules? If there are to be no rules (as some TDOs do at Spa), then I would prefer it if that can be communicated to all drivers.
The problem with rules that are only adhered to by a select few is that those who do adhere are not expecting those who don't to do what they do - hence vastly increasing the risk of a collision.
Let me explain - if the booklet says "only overtake on the left and not in the braking zone" and I see a car approaching fast, I will expect him to overtake on the left, and then only if I am not about to take my racing line into the corner. It gets dangerous if I think he will go to the left, and accordingly move right to let him through, only to veer straight into his path as he tries to overtake me on the right.
The only bad driving accident I have seen involving two cars was where some total tosser in £50 worth of MGZT decided to overtake in the hairpin at Cadwell Park. He then couldn't make the corner and he virtually destroyed the £40,000 Lotus Exige who hadn't expected his manouver. Two car accidents on track days are very rare - that one, and a Cerbera running out of brakes at Cadwell in 2018, are the only two I have seen in 7 years of track days.
Track day insurance - UK drivers need to make very sure that the meeting is covered by their TD insurance. Track day insurance tends to need the event to be organised and run by a member of the ATDO. Well, mine does.
Noise limits - it is impossible to know if your car will pas 98dB(A) drive by. As explained above, it all depends on the positioning of the microphones in relation to the edge of the track.
Bedford Autodrome will have been driven by a number of us. The noise limits there are 101dB(A) static and 87.5 dB(A) drive by. I have failed the static before now, as my car until recently was always marginal. A damp cool morning could easily see me fail even 105dB(A). But I never failed the drive by. At Bedford, the microphones are well away from the track and clearly visible. Only an idiot would drive past them on the rev limiter and on that side of the track, when a higher gear and a different line was available.
So on the face of it, it should be easy to avoid breaking a 98dB(A) limit, but if the microphone was say right on the pit wall, on the same side of the track as the racing line, then it could be possible. The 105 dB(A) static test is at 3/4 max revs at 0.5 metres from the tail pipe. If the drive by meter was only 2 metres from your tail pipe, then if you were right on the limiter I can see you could trigger the 98 dB(A) drive by test even though the limit is not too far below the static limit.
Can anyone who has been to Zolder recently please update us with the position of the noise microphones, in terms of distance from the racing line?
I am keen to come, but would like a little more information about who is marshalling the day (Zolder track day team or Joe Public from TVRCCNL), and whether the club would consider organising a proper driver briefing and track day rules? If there are to be no rules (as some TDOs do at Spa), then I would prefer it if that can be communicated to all drivers.
Hi QBee - It's not as bad as your post suggests, certainly a lot better driving standards than The Nurburgring.
If there were a formal drivers' briefing, you would need to do it in Flemish, French, German and English, so it would take up too much time. However, there is a Welcome to Zolder (sort of briefing) and an Introduction to Zolder (ducks and drakes) from 0830-1000 which newbies are meant to do. The track day then starts properly from 1000 hrs, which is when most regulars turn up.
The track is marshalled by the Zolder circuit; the TVRCCNL run the pit lane; so same as Cadwell TVRCCGB.
If there were a formal drivers' briefing, you would need to do it in Flemish, French, German and English, so it would take up too much time. However, there is a Welcome to Zolder (sort of briefing) and an Introduction to Zolder (ducks and drakes) from 0830-1000 which newbies are meant to do. The track day then starts properly from 1000 hrs, which is when most regulars turn up.
The track is marshalled by the Zolder circuit; the TVRCCNL run the pit lane; so same as Cadwell TVRCCGB.
Been going to the event since 1986, missed a few but not many.
Driving standard - far better than any parade laps at Spa or LeMans. Never not driven on track because I was concerned about the driving standards, or the lack of constraints on overtaking locations. - don’t confuse the two. I do think timing throughout the day should be dropped in favour of fastest lap sessions that you can be part of or otherwise (safer and can helps with insurance)
Actually I know one chap who is a regular at Zolder who wouldn’t go near a uk track day. Go figure ...
Driving standard - far better than any parade laps at Spa or LeMans. Never not driven on track because I was concerned about the driving standards, or the lack of constraints on overtaking locations. - don’t confuse the two. I do think timing throughout the day should be dropped in favour of fastest lap sessions that you can be part of or otherwise (safer and can helps with insurance)
Actually I know one chap who is a regular at Zolder who wouldn’t go near a uk track day. Go figure ...
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 24th June 17:00
Thanks guys - at least my post prompted some positive replies. Trev’s does worry me however. I have never done a track day uninsured, and never had to claim. Sod’s law this will be the one I risk and wish i hadn’t. I will think about it some more, as I want to do every track I can before I hang up the helmet.
QBee said:
Thanks guys - at least my post prompted some positive replies. Trev’s does worry me however. I have never done a track day uninsured, and never had to claim. Sod’s law this will be the one I risk and wish i hadn’t. I will think about it some more, as I want to do every track I can before I hang up the helmet.
The track is a fabulous old F1 circuit to drive.The weekend is so much more than just another track day
TVRMs said:
QBee said:
Thanks guys - at least my post prompted some positive replies. Trev’s does worry me however. I have never done a track day uninsured, and never had to claim. Sod’s law this will be the one I risk and wish i hadn’t. I will think about it some more, as I want to do every track I can before I hang up the helmet.
The track is a fabulous old F1 circuit to drive.The weekend is so much more than just another track day
The only one I enjoyed on my own in recent years was one I did at Cadwell because it was my birthday present.
A dozen MX5s turned up and took me under their wing.
I have to say a well driven MX5 is huge fun - amazingly chuckable and with a 2.5 turbo up front, reasonably quick.
I will give it some thought - I had forgotten it was an old F1 track.
TVRMs said:
The track is a fabulous old F1 circuit to drive.
The weekend is so much more than just another track day
Oh yeah! The social side of it is quite unique I think. The driving is fabulous, you can take it easy or really go for it. And it s never crowded, plenty of space for all.The weekend is so much more than just another track day
And probably one of the few truly international tvr events.
GTrr said:
Oh yeah! The social side of it is quite unique I think. The driving is fabulous, you can take it easy or really go for it. And it s never crowded, plenty of space for all.
And probably one of the few truly international tvr events.
And the chance to meet up with some old Dutch bloke that moved to France..And probably one of the few truly international tvr events.
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