Next Elise - what do you want?

Next Elise - what do you want?

Author
Discussion

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Wednesday 24th July 2019
quotequote all
Refinement is difficult to square with light weight and connectedness.

bcr5784

Original Poster:

7,102 posts

144 months

Wednesday 24th July 2019
quotequote all
ash73 said:
Pointless imo; folk who want a Porsche will always buy a Porsche. The Elise should be the Alpine's dirty little sister.
Not all Porsche owners are brand fanatics - quite a few of us have switched to Alpines and some of us would really like to buy Lotus, given the right car. Some will have gone Alpine because Lotus was (or had become due to change of circumstances) too compromised for them. Some (like me) will have gone the other way because the Cayman wasn't as much fun as they hoped. Not all Porsche owners are the same!

bcr5784

Original Poster:

7,102 posts

144 months

Wednesday 24th July 2019
quotequote all
otolith said:
Refinement is difficult to square with light weight and connectedness.
Alpine have blown that out of the water. No reason why Lotus can't do the same.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
otolith said:
Refinement is difficult to square with light weight and connectedness.
Alpine have blown that out of the water. No reason why Lotus can't do the same.
But the Alpine is 20% heavier than even the S3 Elise. And for a properly refined car you need more than just a couple of hundred kgs of sound deadening, you also want to look at things like the trade offs in suspension bushes.

Zarco

17,705 posts

208 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
otolith said:
bcr5784 said:
otolith said:
Refinement is difficult to square with light weight and connectedness.
Alpine have blown that out of the water. No reason why Lotus can't do the same.
But the Alpine is 20% heavier than even the S3 Elise. And for a properly refined car you need more than just a couple of hundred kgs of sound deadening, you also want to look at things like the trade offs in suspension bushes.
Is the Alpine as refined as the Boxster/Cayman? My gut feel is not.

bcr5784

Original Poster:

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
Zarco said:
Is the Alpine as refined as the Boxster/Cayman? My gut feel is not.
It's actually MORE refined - and I've owned both and driven them back to back. Measured by Autocar on a smooth surface the Alpine is a couple of db quieter, but on a coarse motorway the Alpine has far less tyre noise (the achilles heal of the Cayman, but rarely mentioned in road tests). It's perfectly pleasant to listen to music at 3 figure speeds in the Alpine - not so in the 981 Cayman. (in Germany of course)


Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 25th July 08:43


Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 25th July 08:51

bcr5784

Original Poster:

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
otolith said:
But the Alpine is 20% heavier than even the S3 Elise. And for a properly refined car you need more than just a couple of hundred kgs of sound deadening, you also want to look at things like the trade offs in suspension bushes.
That is why I asked the question about weight - Lotus have played fast and loose with weights - Alpine haven't. Spec for spec I doubt it's more than 10% lighter The PE has been weighed many times and comes within a few kg (over or under) of it's quoted 1105kg DIN weight- that is with a full tank, tools and fully equipped with dual clutch box, power steering, climate control, a good sounding infotainment system, mats, electic folding mirrors, cruise control, auto lights and wipers and a level of trim which is in a different league to the current Elise.

It's not rocket science - Alpine have just been religious about applying Chapman's "adding lightness" mantra. Lotus can do the same and if they make a smaller car, probably with a carbon tub to replace the aluminium one (as rumoured), they should be able to do better on weight. Part of Lotus's problem are the engines - they are heavy lumps. I'm not sure what alternatives Geely can make available.


Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 25th July 08:41


Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 25th July 08:43

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
Working back from what Lotus says the power to weight ratio is, it looks like about 930kg for the current Elise. Which sounds about right, they’re not that difficult to a Toyota S2 at 880-ish with a full tank, add a supercharger, subtract a bit of weight saving and it sounds about right.

The Elise’s aerodynamics don’t pay any attention to keeping wind noise down, and the simple, light roof is never going to be as quiet as a fixed head or something thick and heavy that needs electric motors to move it.

I think a new one could pay more attention to these areas, but I think the boxster has different priorities.

bcr5784

Original Poster:

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
otolith said:
Working back from what Lotus says the power to weight ratio is, it looks like about 930kg for the current Elise. Which sounds about right,

.
Of course it would agree - lotus are using their own quoted weight and power. But if the real world (DIN) weight is greater the power to weight becomes correspondingly less. If, as I suspect the 930kg is without fuel 30kg) , aircon (20kg?) , radio (7kg?), carpets and soundproofing (20kg?) you are over 1000kg already - hence my question.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
Would be useful to get some real world weights, but I don’t see why a recent Toyota Elise would have a real world weight so much more than that of a Toyota S2.

Ferodocastrol

4,678 posts

224 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all


Sort the interior 'creaking out.
I think it's cause by polystyrene moldings behind the door capping/covers.

A quick release/fix of the hard top, too many fixing bolts, and make it stowable behind the seats then a soft top won't be necessary.

Otherwise perfect.

Edited by Ferodocastrol on Thursday 25th July 12:14

bcr5784

Original Poster:

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
Ferodocastrol said:
Sort the interior 'creaking out.
I think it's cause by polystyrene moldings behind the door capping/covers.

A quick release/fix of the hard top, too many fixing bolts, and make it stowable behind the seats then a soft top won't be necessary.

Otherwise perfect.

Edited by Ferodocastrol on Thursday 25th July 12:14
Yes, but do you think that the Elise with be economically viable with such changes? I did ask what Lotus owners themselves would want - so I can't complain if they respond with their particular issues with the car as it stands. But if you want the brand (and its ethos) to survive you do need to widen your vision. The Elise and Evora HAVE been significantly improved over the years, but the perception of the cars hasn't changed and the cars have become marginalised. That needs to change if the brand is to survive and flourish.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
That’s why I differentiated between what I would like and what they’ll probably have to do.

I think a bit more ease of use would broaden the customer base, but I think in following the path Porsche have taken you lose something. If you make it feel as normal as a Golf to drive to the shops, it feels as ordinary as a Golf until you push it.

bcr5784

Original Poster:

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
otolith said:
That’s why I differentiated between what I would like and what they’ll probably have to do.

I think a bit more ease of use would broaden the customer base, but I think in following the path Porsche have taken you lose something. If you make it feel as normal as a Golf to drive to the shops, it feels as ordinary as a Golf until you push it.
Don't disagree - it's a fine line to tread. Some will argue that the Alpine has gone a bit too soft - which leaves room for a somewhat more (but not too much) hardcore Elise.

CABC

5,533 posts

100 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
the Elise is pretty much perfect as is, i'd just tweak bits here and there, like Caterham have done to the 7.
i can't think of a car that has "progressed" and gotten better for pure driving. Porsche, BMW et al have all moved on in terms of comfort, focus, size etc. perfectly reasonable for today's needs and market.

So the answer is, let Caterham have the Elise rights and then Lotus will move to the Alpine segment. I really don't think Geely's plans would involve an Elise as we know it. It's not just a light car, but also narrow, low and somewhat raw. They'll do a 3-Eleven equivalent on the next chassis as it'll be expensive and striking to look at. commercial reality i think.

So, i'll keep the Elise but happy to see what Alpine and Lotus produce next, as something to sit alongside.

Richyboy

3,739 posts

216 months

Thursday 25th July 2019
quotequote all
I wish they’d bring back the s1 Elise, best drivers car of all time.

Call it the Elise classic. No k series so something light to power it, better roof if possible but not essential. Stick probacs seats in there, don’t need anything more. I guess I could just buy a shed and mod but I’d rather lotus worked their magic.

bcr5784

Original Poster:

7,102 posts

144 months

Tuesday 30th July 2019
quotequote all
Richyboy said:
I wish they’d bring back the s1 Elise, best drivers car of all time.

Call it the Elise classic. No k series so something light to power it, better roof if possible but not essential. Stick probacs seats in there, don’t need anything more. I guess I could just buy a shed and mod but I’d rather lotus worked their magic.
Decent gearchange surely?

Howard1650

313 posts

190 months

Tuesday 6th August 2019
quotequote all
A £50K Evija with a removable roof - that would be a good goal.

Compact, light, all-electric powertrain - maximum drive involvement.

It will always be a 2nd or 3rd car, so doesn't need to practical.

Road focused, not a track toy.

Simple but beautiful interior.