S3 Exige S V6 - Slow at the Ring?

[-Z-]

The other elephant in the room is aero. These cars are very very draggy. OK I've an S2 Exige not S3 but similar issues. In my old 200bhp ep3 Civic Type R, I could hit 146mph on an autobahn. In my K20 Exige with the same engine and box but mapped to a verified 240bhp it tops out around 135mph. A Cayman GTS has absurdely good aero which as a lot of the ring is so high speed really helps.

[giveitfish]

I'm guessing Exige downforce is higher than a lot of the cars listed on the previous page, hence higher drag?

[ecain63]

Having recently been to the Ring in my 410, my simple analysis is that the Exige is just more difficult to pedal fast around that place because of its size and the surface of the track. My previous Alfa QF easily went below 9m with my novice skills. It just soaked up the bumps and undulaltions and the PAS and ABS helped hide the changes in road surface under braking meaning it was smooth everywhere. The Exige 410 was much more of a handful and bounced round all over the place. The braking felt much more lively and i didn't feel as comfortable just chucking it into a corner due to the sudden dips and ripples.

It was great fun, don't get me wrong, and it felt a lot faster than it was. But, this is probably the reason why M3s, Megane's and 911's absolutely dominate the place when looking at laptimes.

[Olivera]

ecain63 said:

Having recently been to the Ring in my 410, my simple analysis is that the Exige is just more difficult to pedal fast around that place because of its size and the surface of the track. My previous Alfa QF easily went below 9m with my novice skills. It just soaked up the bumps and undulaltions and the PAS and ABS helped hide the changes in road surface under braking meaning it was smooth everywhere. The Exige 410 was much more of a handful and bounced round all over the place. The braking felt much more lively and i didn't feel as comfortable just chucking it into a corner due to the sudden dips and ripples.

The slightly underwhelming ring times are also present when figured by pro-drivers. See for example sport auto laps (Christian Gebhardt driving):

Exige V6 380: 7.48,13
Toyota GR Supra: 7.52,17 min

if you take book (oem) power to weight figures as the truth, then the Exige V6 should absolutely monster the Supra.

Excessive drag also seems a flimsy reason. Manufacturers add downforce which creates drag (e.g. Exige wing). However the whole point here is the added downforce through the corners gains more time than the time lost caused by additional drag.

It still seems to me that the underwhelming ring times are most likely caused by exaggerated book power figures, inadequate charge cooling, or both.

[-Z-]

Olivera said:

The slightly underwhelming ring times are also present when figured by pro-drivers. See for example sport auto laps (Christian Gebhardt driving):

Exige V6 380: 7.48,13
Toyota GR Supra: 7.52,17 min

if you take book (oem) power to weight figures as the truth, then the Exige V6 should absolutely monster the Supra.

Excessive drag also seems a flimsy reason. Manufacturers add downforce which creates drag (e.g. Exige wing). However the whole point here is the added downforce through the corners gains more time than the time lost caused by additional drag.

It still seems to me that the underwhelming ring times are most likely caused by exaggerated book power figures, inadequate charge cooling, or both.

It would be interesting to throw a Dragy timer onto a V6 and record 100-200kph times and see how it compares to other cars.

I was recently at a Silverstone GP trackday, my Honda powered Elige is almost exactly 300bhp per ton, I had a run behind a 410 V6 Exige which should be around 370bhp/ton and was mildly surprised to find that he didn't really pull on me down the Wellington Straight, I have to assume he was giving it some welly as it was a straight and as he had no novice sticker it wasn't his first time at Silverstone.

Video here : https://www.instagram.com/p/CEZ9HSAlc6u/?igshid=7k...

[ecain63]

-Z- said:

It would be interesting to throw a Dragy timer onto a V6 and record 100-200kph times and see how it compares to other cars.

I was recently at a Silverstone GP trackday, my Honda powered Elige is almost exactly 300bhp per ton, I had a run behind a 410 V6 Exige which should be around 370bhp/ton and was mildly surprised to find that he didn't really pull on me down the Wellington Straight, I have to assume he was giving it some welly as it was a straight and as he had no novice sticker it wasn't his first time at Silverstone.

Video here : https://www.instagram.com/p/CEZ9HSAlc6u/?igshid=7k...

Here you go. My 410.

[-Z-]

ecain63 said:

-Z- said:

It would be interesting to throw a Dragy timer onto a V6 and record 100-200kph times and see how it compares to other cars.

I was recently at a Silverstone GP trackday, my Honda powered Elige is almost exactly 300bhp per ton, I had a run behind a 410 V6 Exige which should be around 370bhp/ton and was mildly surprised to find that he didn't really pull on me down the Wellington Straight, I have to assume he was giving it some welly as it was a straight and as he had no novice sticker it wasn't his first time at Silverstone.

Video here : https://www.instagram.com/p/CEZ9HSAlc6u/?igshid=7k...

Here you go. My 410.

That's rapid, but I still don't get how Porsche make magic happen, 991.2 GT3 MANUAL with less power to weight than an Exige 410 @350bhp/ton and its 100-200kph time is 7.7 Seconds, is drag that relevant at less than 120mph?

Edited to add Manual 718 GT4 8.5 secs 100-200kph with 320bhp/ton, I think Porsche cars are just very 'fit' in terms of pure performance.

Edited by -Z- on Thursday 10th September 14:37

[ecain63]

It's about gearing and power delivery. The Exige needs a gear change at about 190kph so loses a chunk there The engines deliver their punch differently too so there's more factors involved than just peak power vs weight.

[ecain63]

My 1700kg Alfa QF did 100-200 8.5s consistently. That's 500bhp. All about power delivery and gearing.

[-Z-]

ecain63 said:

It's about gearing and power delivery. The Exige needs a gear change at about 190kph so loses a chunk there The engines deliver their punch differently too so there's more factors involved than just peak power vs weight.

Very true and given that the 100-200kph drag is repeated over and over and over again at the ring perhaps goes someway to explaining the V6 Vs Cayman comparison.

[ecain63]

-Z- said:

Very true and given that the 100-200kph drag is repeated over and over and over again at the ring perhaps goes someway to explaining the V6 Vs Cayman comparison.

Porsche develop and test at the Ring. Lotus do it in the turnip fields of Norfolk.

[CTE]

If your comparing a PDK to a manual change, as I noted earlier you`ll loose at least 0.5 seconds every time you change and if you`ve only got 20 gearchanges round the ring that`s 10 seconds down.

There was an Evo comparison round Anglesey with the GT2 RS (PDK), THE Mercedes GT whatever, the Exige GT430 and I think the Ford GT40 or whatever it is called. No surprise the Exige came last, but not by a huge margin and if you look at various sectors of the track the Exige carried more speed through some of the bends...so really it is noticeably down on power in comparison and was the only car with a manual gearbox, so what do you expect. Oh yes it also cost a fraction of the other cars so was punching above its weight really, so bit of an unfair comparison.

One thing I can assure you of is they are very exciting to drive for a road car.

[MarkM3Evoplus]

Exige seem pretty good laptime wise on tighter and twistier circuits.

Gebhart or whatever his name is, may be a pro driver, but he seems to struggle with manuals, doesn't rev match, so cars like the Exige, which don't have rev match like say a GT4, aren't well balance going into turns.

I also think that the V6 engine may be a bit high in the chassis. Look at a Cayman GT4 and the engine looks a lot lower, giving it a better base.

A suitably set up Exige (like the early Cup V6) do seem to be significantly faster on circuit, so I think the ingredients are there with a bit of tweaking to make a much quicker track car

[alicrozier]

ecain63 said:

Having recently been to the Ring in my 410, my simple analysis is that the Exige is just more difficult to pedal fast around that place because of its size and the surface of the track. My previous Alfa QF easily went below 9m with my novice skills. It just soaked up the bumps and undulaltions and the PAS and ABS helped hide the changes in road surface under braking meaning it was smooth everywhere. The Exige 410 was much more of a handful and bounced round all over the place. The braking felt much more lively and i didn't feel as comfortable just chucking it into a corner due to the sudden dips and ripples.

It was great fun, don't get me wrong, and it felt a lot faster than it was. But, this is probably the reason why M3s, Megane's and 911's absolutely dominate the place when looking at laptimes.

I'd agree the Exige would be much more difficult, I felt the same in my 3-Eleven (410) recently, bumpy braking zones, kerbs etc don't inspire confidence.
Regarding charge cooling the impact is massive, you can see it from the Autosport video the car has less power as the lap goes on. For example the maximum speeds at Schwedenkrueuz and Döttinger Höhe are the same (~244 kph) where you would expect it to be maybe 10% faster?

I had some charge cooler issues in the 3-Eleven (low fluid) and before going into limp mode saw similar numbers. With the charge cooler fluid topped up and while maybe not full power restored it was maintained better over the lap and max logged speeds went up to ~254 and ~280 kph (despite my driving being driving being significantly less committed then Christian Gebhardt!).