Elise 111S or 111r?
Discussion
Hi there, guess what: my first post and it involves some buying tips. Guess nobody saw that one coming 
I have been doing some research, read a few forums, some buying guides etc. and think i have distilled my search to two serious contenders:
- Lotus Elise 111S
- Lotus Elise 111R
We are talking second hand cars here, so I think it will be something in the make year between 2002 and 2008.
Now, as far as i can work out both cars are rather similar, except of course obvious stuff as 160hp vs 190hp, different gearing which results in the same 0-100km times and a higher top speed for the 111R.
Is this a no-brainer? Go for the obvious choice: POWER! Or is it not that simple?
Are there any potential rookie mistakes i am overlooking? What would you recommend, are both engines reliable? The high-revving 111R sounds great to me, but the whole second camshaft and high-revs also sounds rather risky. Even though it's a Toyota engine, is it up to the task to rev the pants off it for 150.000 miles or more?
Rust probably isn't an issue on an Elise But what is?
Looking forward to some tips, maybe some links to buyer guides I might have missed, any info is more than welcome!
Thanks!!
I have been doing some research, read a few forums, some buying guides etc. and think i have distilled my search to two serious contenders:
- Lotus Elise 111S
- Lotus Elise 111R
We are talking second hand cars here, so I think it will be something in the make year between 2002 and 2008.
Now, as far as i can work out both cars are rather similar, except of course obvious stuff as 160hp vs 190hp, different gearing which results in the same 0-100km times and a higher top speed for the 111R.
Is this a no-brainer? Go for the obvious choice: POWER! Or is it not that simple?
Are there any potential rookie mistakes i am overlooking? What would you recommend, are both engines reliable? The high-revving 111R sounds great to me, but the whole second camshaft and high-revs also sounds rather risky. Even though it's a Toyota engine, is it up to the task to rev the pants off it for 150.000 miles or more?
Rust probably isn't an issue on an Elise
But what is?Looking forward to some tips, maybe some links to buyer guides I might have missed, any info is more than welcome!
Thanks!!
Edited by arbr on Friday 26th November 23:07
I did some more work going through the forum and have found some things, which may or may not be correct:
- The 111S is lighter than the 111R because it lacks servo assisted brakes, airbags and some other stuff
- The 111R has a turbo-like power delivery due to the power-cam, the 111S is more linear
- The 111S has an engine that must have a belt change every 4 years, regardless of mileage (the 111R has other issues?)
- The price difference between the 111S and 111R is small
- A lot of people seem to prefer the 111S over the 111R as it is a simpler car, straight-forward engine and lighter
Please correct me if i'm wrong...
PS: Isn't there some document online which explains the difference a bit more? I think many people will have to decide between the 111S and 111R and it will result in the same questions over and over again.
- The 111S is lighter than the 111R because it lacks servo assisted brakes, airbags and some other stuff
- The 111R has a turbo-like power delivery due to the power-cam, the 111S is more linear
- The 111S has an engine that must have a belt change every 4 years, regardless of mileage (the 111R has other issues?)
- The price difference between the 111S and 111R is small
- A lot of people seem to prefer the 111S over the 111R as it is a simpler car, straight-forward engine and lighter
Please correct me if i'm wrong...
PS: Isn't there some document online which explains the difference a bit more? I think many people will have to decide between the 111S and 111R and it will result in the same questions over and over again.
I am used to driving 2.0/2.5l turbo engines, so very used to kick-in-the-pants power delivery. Yet i really love engines with nice low end torque and smooth power delivery, it's less dramatic, but better to drive on the road.
Just to specify: the whole 111S vs 111R debate goes a bit further for me. I would be interested in either:
111S 02-06
111R 04-06
R 06->
SC 08->
The current S model seems to deliver just 136hp and that just doesn't do it for me.
I will be using the Elise as a second car, mostly used in weekends for small to medium distance runs. For commuting I will be using a different car, so it's ok if the Lotus is not that practical.
And how about that SC version. Of course a bit more expensive, but is the addition of a supercharger to the second cam effect not too much for regular use?
Just to specify: the whole 111S vs 111R debate goes a bit further for me. I would be interested in either:
111S 02-06
111R 04-06
R 06->
SC 08->
The current S model seems to deliver just 136hp and that just doesn't do it for me.
I will be using the Elise as a second car, mostly used in weekends for small to medium distance runs. For commuting I will be using a different car, so it's ok if the Lotus is not that practical.
And how about that SC version. Of course a bit more expensive, but is the addition of a supercharger to the second cam effect not too much for regular use?
Ah, the old 111S vs R debate.. 
The earlier S has a Rover K series engine, the later R a Toyota - though there is an overlap whereby Lotus were building the Elise with one or the other around '04 - '05. Ks main 'issue' can be it's head gasket in that they can be liable to blow, it's relatively easy to sort but needs to be done properly, but IMO it's no where near as big an issue as some people would have you believe - some people have had issues, by far the most won't. Toyotas seem to be pretty reliable even with the whole cam thing, though you still hear the odd scare story about this, that and the other so I personally wouldn't let the whole engine reliability thing get in the way too much in the decision making process as long as the car you buy has a proper service history.
The S doesn't haven't a brake servo or ABS, the R does. A lot of people prefer the feel of the non-servo'd system but you may personnal like the idea of having ABS.
The S is lighter but the R is more powerful so I would think that they pretty much cancel eachother out.
The S power delivery is a lot more linear, the R less so. People either seem to love or loathe the way the R gets it's second wind at 6k or so.
As you can see, it's all down to personnal preference! As someone has already said, try both and decide - it's the only way. Cost wise an S will generally be cheaper but that's because it's the older car, either way whatever you do make sure that it's been looked after properly. These cars are generally owned by people who'll take care of them, if anything is a bit iffy then walk away as there's quite a choice of cars out there.
Join SELOC for more info, it's one of the biggest (the biggest?) owners club sites out there
Edit to change a muppet spec error..
The earlier S has a Rover K series engine, the later R a Toyota - though there is an overlap whereby Lotus were building the Elise with one or the other around '04 - '05. Ks main 'issue' can be it's head gasket in that they can be liable to blow, it's relatively easy to sort but needs to be done properly, but IMO it's no where near as big an issue as some people would have you believe - some people have had issues, by far the most won't. Toyotas seem to be pretty reliable even with the whole cam thing, though you still hear the odd scare story about this, that and the other so I personally wouldn't let the whole engine reliability thing get in the way too much in the decision making process as long as the car you buy has a proper service history.
The S doesn't haven't a brake servo or ABS, the R does. A lot of people prefer the feel of the non-servo'd system but you may personnal like the idea of having ABS.
The S is lighter but the R is more powerful so I would think that they pretty much cancel eachother out.
The S power delivery is a lot more linear, the R less so. People either seem to love or loathe the way the R gets it's second wind at 6k or so.
As you can see, it's all down to personnal preference! As someone has already said, try both and decide - it's the only way. Cost wise an S will generally be cheaper but that's because it's the older car, either way whatever you do make sure that it's been looked after properly. These cars are generally owned by people who'll take care of them, if anything is a bit iffy then walk away as there's quite a choice of cars out there.
Join SELOC for more info, it's one of the biggest (the biggest?) owners club sites out there
Edit to change a muppet spec error..
Edited by CardShark on Saturday 27th November 16:52
Nice to see no replies saying this discussion has been covered already. Some OP's forget that NP's are looking for information, comments that are up to date and relevant. Having recently acquired my car, I really appreciated all the comments and replies that concerned my concerns and questions regarding my intended purchase. No doubt this argument has been done to death but remains relevant for first timers.
As for my own conclusions, check for service history, HPI clear, as a matter of real importance. Afterwards its about price, condition, mileage, options, colours and 'feeling'. There are bargains to be had at the moment with prices reflecting the time of year. I looked for a year to find my car. From my experience this time of year is good for choice and price, with dealers and privates looking to 'move cars' Spring and summer the choices were far more limited and prices higher, one might say obviously. Anyway, ask as many questions as you feel relevant for your personal search, make your decision based on information offered and get your car. Now is a good time to do it. Enjoy your search, take your time and get your car that suits your particular needs
As for my own conclusions, check for service history, HPI clear, as a matter of real importance. Afterwards its about price, condition, mileage, options, colours and 'feeling'. There are bargains to be had at the moment with prices reflecting the time of year. I looked for a year to find my car. From my experience this time of year is good for choice and price, with dealers and privates looking to 'move cars' Spring and summer the choices were far more limited and prices higher, one might say obviously. Anyway, ask as many questions as you feel relevant for your personal search, make your decision based on information offered and get your car. Now is a good time to do it. Enjoy your search, take your time and get your car that suits your particular needs
Thanks for the replies. After searching through the forum I did of course notice a lot of S vs R debates, and of course I read quite a lot of them. Yet, some of these older posts never really apply to the specific information I might need. As you can see I am also open to buy the new R or maybe even the SC. Some posts that I found dated from before the time the current SC model had even been launched.
So thanks for all the positive feedback on this old and probably tiresome topic. It really helps to get all sorts of information from practice, so keep the advice coming!
Maybe a short side-note: I am not from the UK. I live in Holland and I'm afraid that over here we have an extremely limited choice of cars, so I will probably be forced to extend my search into the UK and Germany. It's not really easy to test drive several cars over here, cause there simply is very limited stock available.
That's why any information I can gather from experts before I actually touch a car I might be interested in is very important to me.
So thanks for all the positive feedback on this old and probably tiresome topic. It really helps to get all sorts of information from practice, so keep the advice coming!
Maybe a short side-note: I am not from the UK. I live in Holland and I'm afraid that over here we have an extremely limited choice of cars, so I will probably be forced to extend my search into the UK and Germany. It's not really easy to test drive several cars over here, cause there simply is very limited stock available.
That's why any information I can gather from experts before I actually touch a car I might be interested in is very important to me.
Edited by arbr on Saturday 27th November 11:47
For example: a simple question for all the people here, but I am getting confused. I see the terms like ' Tourer, Touring Pack, Stage 2 Lotus Exhaust' and all sorts of other features coming by. I guess that a touring/tourer pack is some sort of options pack which could be ordered? Also, I am guessing that a 'Stage 2' exhaust is probably a factory installed sports exhaust or something?
Were there a lot of options and packs available for the cars and is it common for cars to be tuned straight out of the factory?
Were there a lot of options and packs available for the cars and is it common for cars to be tuned straight out of the factory?
You might also want to consider getting a second hand Honda converted car. When I got my elise (a 111S) it was an only car and, although its great and I'm glad I went for it over a 111R, if I had my time again I'd pay an extra few grand (doing this later will cost £10-15k) for a Honda converted one, which would give class-apart performance from either. Choice is even more limited mind you.
There were a number of option packs over the models - my 2004 111s has Touring pack which is quite common and gives you leather trim, carpets and sound insulation including a double layered soft top.
Touring packs tends to me luxury extras, sports packs tend to be handling focused - suspension, wheels etc
A lot of cars also had sports exhaust fitted as standard to make them sound nicer and there were various exhausts from the factory so you will see stage 1 or stage 2, stage 1 being quieter.
This site is useful for the various Elise models and the available option packs
http://www.elises.co.uk/models/
Also mentioned already Seloc forum is good place for other info and also the seloc wiki (although more techically focused) somewhere in it will tell you about option packs as well
Wiki is http://wiki.seloc.org/a/SELOC_TechWiki
Touring packs tends to me luxury extras, sports packs tend to be handling focused - suspension, wheels etc
A lot of cars also had sports exhaust fitted as standard to make them sound nicer and there were various exhausts from the factory so you will see stage 1 or stage 2, stage 1 being quieter.
This site is useful for the various Elise models and the available option packs
http://www.elises.co.uk/models/
Also mentioned already Seloc forum is good place for other info and also the seloc wiki (although more techically focused) somewhere in it will tell you about option packs as well
Wiki is http://wiki.seloc.org/a/SELOC_TechWiki
otolith said:
cardshark said:
The S doesn't have power assisted stearing, the R does - again, some people prefer the feel of a non-assisted set up.
No power steering on any Elise.Edited by CardShark on Saturday 27th November 16:51
arbr said:
Thanks for the replies. After searching through the forum I did of course notice a lot of S vs R debates, and of course I read quite a lot of them. Yet, some of these older posts never really apply to the specific information I might need. As you can see I am also open to buy the new R or maybe even the SC. Some posts that I found dated from before the time the current SC model had even been launched.
So thanks for all the positive feedback on this old and probably tiresome topic. It really helps to get all sorts of information from practice, so keep the advice coming!
Maybe a short side-note: I am not from the UK. I live in Holland and I'm afraid that over here we have an extremely limited choice of cars, so I will probably be forced to extend my search into the UK and Germany. It's not really easy to test drive several cars over here, cause there simply is very limited stock available.
That's why any information I can gather from experts before I actually touch a car I might be interested in is very important to me.
Just be careful should you look for a Lotus on the continent. Whereas in the UK accident damaged cars are registered as such (hpi) a common practice for overseas buyers or sellers is to buy these cars at knock down prices in the UK. They are then exported and registered in the country concerned and in doing so the HPI classification dissappears. A case in point exists in Holland. A lotus 'trader' who I will not name but who has several cars for sale. They will inform you of the cars history if you ask the right questions, but if you dont then you end up buying a car, albeit 'reasonably priced' but once registered as damaged. Private sellers are even less scrupulous.
It should be added that there is a flourishing demand for cars on the continent so sellers in the UK should not be surprised to get interest from France-Germany or Holland
So thanks for all the positive feedback on this old and probably tiresome topic. It really helps to get all sorts of information from practice, so keep the advice coming!
Maybe a short side-note: I am not from the UK. I live in Holland and I'm afraid that over here we have an extremely limited choice of cars, so I will probably be forced to extend my search into the UK and Germany. It's not really easy to test drive several cars over here, cause there simply is very limited stock available.
That's why any information I can gather from experts before I actually touch a car I might be interested in is very important to me.
Just be careful should you look for a Lotus on the continent. Whereas in the UK accident damaged cars are registered as such (hpi) a common practice for overseas buyers or sellers is to buy these cars at knock down prices in the UK. They are then exported and registered in the country concerned and in doing so the HPI classification dissappears. A case in point exists in Holland. A lotus 'trader' who I will not name but who has several cars for sale. They will inform you of the cars history if you ask the right questions, but if you dont then you end up buying a car, albeit 'reasonably priced' but once registered as damaged. Private sellers are even less scrupulous.
It should be added that there is a flourishing demand for cars on the continent so sellers in the UK should not be surprised to get interest from France-Germany or Holland
Edited by arbr on Saturday 27th November 11:47
We have a similar system over here, I think it is accessible to anyone who would like to buy a car, foreign or not. Isn't possible it for me to get hold of the accident history based on chassis number or something?
I think i know which trader you mean, I will also refrain from naming the company. One thing of course not to be overlooked for UK-cars is the right hand drive 'problem'. The Elise is a small car, so practical issues like getting into a garage or a MacDrive are not too bad. Driving a RHD on the continent does seem to be a bit of strange thing for me. I can get used to stick on the left, but sitting on the right side might result in strange situations.
This only gives me one option: get an LHD. As a result this will limit my search by about 80% and getting a nice example with low mileage in the colour and spec i'd like will be near impossible. Almost all LHD cars seem to be regular Elises or and Elise S. The Elise R that i still see as my preferred car will be hard to find in LHD...
I think i know which trader you mean, I will also refrain from naming the company. One thing of course not to be overlooked for UK-cars is the right hand drive 'problem'. The Elise is a small car, so practical issues like getting into a garage or a MacDrive are not too bad. Driving a RHD on the continent does seem to be a bit of strange thing for me. I can get used to stick on the left, but sitting on the right side might result in strange situations.
This only gives me one option: get an LHD. As a result this will limit my search by about 80% and getting a nice example with low mileage in the colour and spec i'd like will be near impossible. Almost all LHD cars seem to be regular Elises or and Elise S. The Elise R that i still see as my preferred car will be hard to find in LHD...
Edited by arbr on Sunday 28th November 22:40
Have you looked at seloc.org ? Do a search there (free to register) for the 111R Vs 111S question - it's a very common dilema when buying.
There are many happy 111S owners who will tell you theirs is best and that it has the best power delivery. I've owned both and I much prefer the 111R. It has very similar power up to 6250rpm and then it goes crazy! It's like two cars in one, drive it sensible most of the time and then let rip when you feel like it. (You can buy a chip to reduce the cam change down to 5750 rpm for about 150-250 GBP if you like - lots of people do!)
The 111S engine (Rover K-series) is pretty tough except for the head gasket - a poll some time back showed that 1/3 of elise owners had suffered HGF at some time, some more than once. The 111R (Toyota) engine is much more reliable although a few people have suffered blown engines due to oil failure - thought to be mainly due to the high Gs generated during track use.
The SC is the 111R engine although the SC gives about 30bhp more and far more torque.The cam change is not set a 6250rpm but changes in relation to engine load, giving a much more driveable car.
Something that is rarely mentioned in these debates is the better build quality, brakes, suspension on the 111R - MUCH better in my experience. If you can afford it go for one 2006 or younger as they are better still with a few extra goodies.
I'm bored writing now, get yourself the Haynes book "Lotus Elise" by Alastair Clements (ISBN 978 1 84425 574 0). It costs about 20GBP and is a good read, tells much about the elise S1 and S2 without getting too complicated.
Fantastic cars - good luck!
There are many happy 111S owners who will tell you theirs is best and that it has the best power delivery. I've owned both and I much prefer the 111R. It has very similar power up to 6250rpm and then it goes crazy! It's like two cars in one, drive it sensible most of the time and then let rip when you feel like it. (You can buy a chip to reduce the cam change down to 5750 rpm for about 150-250 GBP if you like - lots of people do!)
The 111S engine (Rover K-series) is pretty tough except for the head gasket - a poll some time back showed that 1/3 of elise owners had suffered HGF at some time, some more than once. The 111R (Toyota) engine is much more reliable although a few people have suffered blown engines due to oil failure - thought to be mainly due to the high Gs generated during track use.
The SC is the 111R engine although the SC gives about 30bhp more and far more torque.The cam change is not set a 6250rpm but changes in relation to engine load, giving a much more driveable car.
Something that is rarely mentioned in these debates is the better build quality, brakes, suspension on the 111R - MUCH better in my experience. If you can afford it go for one 2006 or younger as they are better still with a few extra goodies.
I'm bored writing now, get yourself the Haynes book "Lotus Elise" by Alastair Clements (ISBN 978 1 84425 574 0). It costs about 20GBP and is a good read, tells much about the elise S1 and S2 without getting too complicated.
Fantastic cars - good luck!
Am I right in thinking this car is a USA import? It is LHD, but has an orange reflector strip which I reckon is a silly American addition?
http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showDetails.html...
http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showDetails.html...
arbr said:
Am I right in thinking this car is a USA import? It is LHD, but has an orange reflector strip which I reckon is a silly American addition?
http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showDetails.html...
Yes, the orange repeaters on the wheelarch were for the USA market.http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showDetails.html...
duncs said:
The SC is the 111R engine although the SC gives about 30bhp more and far more torque.The cam change is not set a 6250rpm but changes in relation to engine load, giving a much more driveable car.
I thought the SC was based on the "S" engine not the "R" (can't remember the Toyota model numbers)? Might be wrong though.duncs said:
Something that is rarely mentioned in these debates is the better build quality, brakes, suspension on the 111R - MUCH better in my experience. If you can afford it go for one 2006 or younger as they are better still with a few extra goodies.
Interestingly, the thing that really put me off the 111R, was the brakes; servo assistance just didn't seem to suit the car. In my experience, the difference in other stuff is not really 111S v 111R, but more down to the age of the car. I'm not sure I could see a difference in build quality between a 111S and 111R that rolled off the production line on the same day.Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff