RND power output 364bhp
Discussion
Don1 said:
So it looks like RND are still in business and their main supporter is claiming you have received everything you had paid for. I really hope that is the case?
Dear fellow piston heads: First, please forgive my tardy response. I have not been on PH lately. (Mostly I have been in my shop working on the E type)I have received everything I paid for???!!! What a joke. I cannot even get a response from them. (All that is left to ship is the transmission, a brace of Webers, flywheel, clutch assembly, bell housing, ECU, starter, (shall I continue?). BUT, I did receive a very nice looking long block, custom headers and the custom manifold for the Webers.
From reading some of the posts I get the impression that there have been some kind of further developments concerning our mutual "friend's" . Can someone please fill me in?
Cheers
CliveF (he of the Cascade Phoenix Sagaris and beautiful stainless Steel pipes fame), has been rebuilding his Sagaris over the winter. He has posted on the Book of Face about the components, including RND components.
After imbibing a few 'adult' beverages after a long day, I chanced apon this post and exclaimed my surprise of supplier. This post was replied to by a gentleman who always seems to ride to their rescue stating that you had received everything you had paid for.
Sorry to hear that you are still missing stuff.
After imbibing a few 'adult' beverages after a long day, I chanced apon this post and exclaimed my surprise of supplier. This post was replied to by a gentleman who always seems to ride to their rescue stating that you had received everything you had paid for.
Sorry to hear that you are still missing stuff.
Don1 said:
Clive did with his, didn't get the numbers he wanted. Which reminds me, he wanted them in the Modified S6 wiki. I need to sort that...
Yep the numbers didn't end up being what he was promised which is a shame because I've run a few engines that Clive has built himself now on the dyno and they never give me any grief at all and always give repeatable consistent outputs which is more than you can say for some engine builders .. .. so he's put it together nicely, and it is strong and free revving and smooth and drip-free and has done multiple runs on the dyno without a hiccup which are all important points of course for a road engine.
It's a good build for sure, he's not daft that Clive guy
Just a shame the RND parts don't deliver what they're supposed to in terms of power and to his great credit he's detailed everything in his write up, warts n all. He deserved better, he did his bit beautifully .. and it is still a 420hp speed six .. not many people can claim to have that on a self-build or even an established SP6 builder build!Clive was talking about putting his Sag up for sale and moving on to something american next .. whoever buys it will be buying a bit of clivef magic in a Sag, the last of the true TVRs. What's not to like?
spitfire4v8 said:
Yep the numbers didn't end up being what he was promised which is a shame because I've run a few engines that Clive has built himself now on the dyno and they never give me any grief at all and always give repeatable consistent outputs which is more than you can say for some engine builders ..
.. so he's put it together nicely, and it is strong and free revving and smooth and drip-free and has done multiple runs on the dyno without a hiccup which are all important points of course for a road engine.
It's a good build for sure, he's not daft that Clive guy Just a shame the RND parts don't deliver what they're supposed to in terms of power and to his great credit he's detailed everything in his write up, warts n all. He deserved better, he did his bit beautifully .. and it is still a 420hp speed six .. not many people can claim to have that on a self-build or even an established SP6 builder build!
Clive was talking about putting his Sag up for sale and moving on to something american next .. whoever buys it will be buying a bit of clivef magic in a Sag, the last of the true TVRs. What's not to like?
When you say write up, where was that, in a sprint article?.. so he's put it together nicely, and it is strong and free revving and smooth and drip-free and has done multiple runs on the dyno without a hiccup which are all important points of course for a road engine.
It's a good build for sure, he's not daft that Clive guy
Just a shame the RND parts don't deliver what they're supposed to in terms of power and to his great credit he's detailed everything in his write up, warts n all. He deserved better, he did his bit beautifully .. and it is still a 420hp speed six .. not many people can claim to have that on a self-build or even an established SP6 builder build!Clive was talking about putting his Sag up for sale and moving on to something american next .. whoever buys it will be buying a bit of clivef magic in a Sag, the last of the true TVRs. What's not to like?
And do you know what's become of RND now?
We're still in the process of sorting everything out as my business partner's 4.8 litre AJP8 is still in the hands of the engine builder who was the real problem all along (which is all that I can say here, suffice to say we've ordered him to deliver the engine with all the parts that have been paid for upfront to Lloyd to have it put together) - but anyway, we (Speed Eight Performance) have bought the IP of RND including the Al Melling AJP6 blueprints, the manufacturing rights of the RND developed parts and a small remaining stock of parts.
As soon as supply structures have been re-established with the original suppliers, most if not all of the RND developed parts will become available rebranded as Speed Eight Performance parts.
As soon as supply structures have been re-established with the original suppliers, most if not all of the RND developed parts will become available rebranded as Speed Eight Performance parts.
Have you done your marketing on if people would actually buy this ex RND stuff?
The previous owner of my Tuscan spent many thousands of pounds with RND (I have receipts for all components) to supply lots of shiny stuff. From machining block to 4.1 for Ross pistons. Cylinder heard work with up-rated cams.
To put it bluntly it's total garbage. Doesn't produce anymore power, actually down on power. I now have valve seat recession on a couple of valves.
I wouldn't touch this stuff with barge pole.
The previous owner of my Tuscan spent many thousands of pounds with RND (I have receipts for all components) to supply lots of shiny stuff. From machining block to 4.1 for Ross pistons. Cylinder heard work with up-rated cams.
To put it bluntly it's total garbage. Doesn't produce anymore power, actually down on power. I now have valve seat recession on a couple of valves.
I wouldn't touch this stuff with barge pole.
900T-R said:
We're still in the process of sorting everything out as my business partner's 4.8 litre AJP8 is still in the hands of the engine builder who was the real problem all along (which is all that I can say here, suffice to say we've ordered him to deliver the engine with all the parts that have been paid for upfront to Lloyd to have it put together) - but anyway, we (Speed Eight Performance) have bought the IP of RND including the Al Melling AJP6 blueprints, the manufacturing rights of the RND developed parts and a small remaining stock of parts.
As soon as supply structures have been re-established with the original suppliers, most if not all of the RND developed parts will become available rebranded as Speed Eight Performance parts.
Interesting!! So RND should take the website down that alludes to them owning the blueprints other objet d'art. So in light of you buying the IP and associated parts does this mean that RND is no moreAs soon as supply structures have been re-established with the original suppliers, most if not all of the RND developed parts will become available rebranded as Speed Eight Performance parts.
Its odd that your engine build has mysteriously gone the way of Black Six's engine rebuild...
Thinking about it, and based on the above posts about engine builds, if your setting up new, I would have been tempted to go the Carrilo, JE root for parts to your own spec.
Edited by m4tti on Wednesday 16th January 12:54
Hello,
I've been in this game for the best part of a decade now and when we started to dig into the Speed 6, I came to the conclusion that the only finger followers that have the correct profile, are, indeed, RNDs based on the Al Melling IP. All others are incorrect to a greater or lesser degree.
We found out that the basic engineering behind the parts was sound, and they were made by large, well known quality suppliers to Dave Davies' spec who so far has been the only one to be able to explain in detail about the how and why. Furthermore, answers to our queries weren't forthcoming from any of the 'big boys', which tells volumes.
Also, a look at the Speed 6 performance wiki on here shows that nearly every S6 that broke 400 hp (on any dyno but Powers') was built with RNDs cam profiles, followers and valve springs. None of the big capacity engines from the big boys do. They just tend to major on torque and pull down the RPM level at which max power is being made (which is nice for the peeps that fundamentally dislike the S6 character and secretly wish it was a Rover V8 I guess
).
We have worked with Dave Davies for a while now and concluded he's a walking business disaster (sorry Dave, hope you don't mind me saying this but I also know you understand). Also he has been held to ransom by rogue engine builders on which he has had no leverage whatsoever because of his personal situation. The less said about this, the better as I don't want to fall foul of the rules of the house - save to say we are still in the process of untangling the mess with some much valued help from certain people within the TVR community.
One of the major problems with RND was that they were trying to be a price leader with their builds rather than focussing on the job actually being done to a proper standard and within an acceptable price frame. What I ended up paying to do a cylinder head rebuild here (parts provided by me) was three times what RND quoted (for a rebuild that never happened and cost us over a year before we took the head back). That's what it takes for a professional outfit to do it properly, pay their bills and make a bit of margin.
The bottom line is - the parts were/are proven in a good number of engine builds delivering the goods. In fact, the current S6 record output (465.8 bhp) stands for a Powers 4.3 that subsequently had the head rebuilt with RND top end components by Lloyds. The engineering principles have been properly explained in several Sprint articles. You can see for yourself whether you agree with them or not. The parts were being made to RNDs spec by large, reputable brand name outfits - Kent, Piper, Ross and JE being among them.
As for their engine builds, probably the less said the better. Again, I refer to the N & S rule.
Dave put his neck out to get the original AJP6 drawings and reverse engineer the changes made by TVR to save some quids (and possibly to avoid royalty payments to Al Melling) to come up with properly thought out solutions and subsequently got stuck with his advancing age and health issues/accidents compounding the issue. So far, he's been the only one in the Speed 6/AJP world who has actually been able and willing to provide proper - and as far as I can see, correct - technical explanations.
We actually feel for the guy, but we also knew we needed to address the situation which was benefitting no one. So to an extent, this is us making lemonade from lemons. But, and this is a big but, we also feel short of doing our own engineering from the ground up (and probably running against the IP issue with regards to the correct finger follower geometry, which we believe one or two competitors have tried to do, been caught out and since have reverted to using exotic coatings on their FFs to make them last) Dave Davies was the sole person who 's been able and willing to get us what we want from our Speed 6.
One thing I have learnt in the past dozen years is that engine builders and painters are trouble. Always. I know enough of the usual suspects to know that they've dropped a b
k or two in their day, too, leaving others to clean up their mess. Well, that's our responsibility to deal with if someone buys an engine or specifies a rebuild of their car with us. Such is the way of the world.
Anyway, we won't tell you to buy parts from us (you will probably need us if you want significantly more than 400 true bhp from a naturally aspirated S6, though ). But if you do and come across an issue that cannot reasonably be traced to the engine build itself, of course we will take ownership of the situation and not stop until a satisfactory conclusion is being reached.
I've been in this game for the best part of a decade now and when we started to dig into the Speed 6, I came to the conclusion that the only finger followers that have the correct profile, are, indeed, RNDs based on the Al Melling IP. All others are incorrect to a greater or lesser degree.
We found out that the basic engineering behind the parts was sound, and they were made by large, well known quality suppliers to Dave Davies' spec who so far has been the only one to be able to explain in detail about the how and why. Furthermore, answers to our queries weren't forthcoming from any of the 'big boys', which tells volumes.
Also, a look at the Speed 6 performance wiki on here shows that nearly every S6 that broke 400 hp (on any dyno but Powers') was built with RNDs cam profiles, followers and valve springs. None of the big capacity engines from the big boys do. They just tend to major on torque and pull down the RPM level at which max power is being made (which is nice for the peeps that fundamentally dislike the S6 character and secretly wish it was a Rover V8 I guess
). We have worked with Dave Davies for a while now and concluded he's a walking business disaster (sorry Dave, hope you don't mind me saying this but I also know you understand). Also he has been held to ransom by rogue engine builders on which he has had no leverage whatsoever because of his personal situation. The less said about this, the better as I don't want to fall foul of the rules of the house - save to say we are still in the process of untangling the mess with some much valued help from certain people within the TVR community.
One of the major problems with RND was that they were trying to be a price leader with their builds rather than focussing on the job actually being done to a proper standard and within an acceptable price frame. What I ended up paying to do a cylinder head rebuild here (parts provided by me) was three times what RND quoted (for a rebuild that never happened and cost us over a year before we took the head back). That's what it takes for a professional outfit to do it properly, pay their bills and make a bit of margin.
The bottom line is - the parts were/are proven in a good number of engine builds delivering the goods. In fact, the current S6 record output (465.8 bhp) stands for a Powers 4.3 that subsequently had the head rebuilt with RND top end components by Lloyds. The engineering principles have been properly explained in several Sprint articles. You can see for yourself whether you agree with them or not. The parts were being made to RNDs spec by large, reputable brand name outfits - Kent, Piper, Ross and JE being among them.
As for their engine builds, probably the less said the better. Again, I refer to the N & S rule.
Dave put his neck out to get the original AJP6 drawings and reverse engineer the changes made by TVR to save some quids (and possibly to avoid royalty payments to Al Melling) to come up with properly thought out solutions and subsequently got stuck with his advancing age and health issues/accidents compounding the issue. So far, he's been the only one in the Speed 6/AJP world who has actually been able and willing to provide proper - and as far as I can see, correct - technical explanations.
We actually feel for the guy, but we also knew we needed to address the situation which was benefitting no one. So to an extent, this is us making lemonade from lemons. But, and this is a big but, we also feel short of doing our own engineering from the ground up (and probably running against the IP issue with regards to the correct finger follower geometry, which we believe one or two competitors have tried to do, been caught out and since have reverted to using exotic coatings on their FFs to make them last) Dave Davies was the sole person who 's been able and willing to get us what we want from our Speed 6.
One thing I have learnt in the past dozen years is that engine builders and painters are trouble. Always. I know enough of the usual suspects to know that they've dropped a b
k or two in their day, too, leaving others to clean up their mess. Well, that's our responsibility to deal with if someone buys an engine or specifies a rebuild of their car with us. Such is the way of the world. Anyway, we won't tell you to buy parts from us (you will probably need us if you want significantly more than 400 true bhp from a naturally aspirated S6, though
). But if you do and come across an issue that cannot reasonably be traced to the engine build itself, of course we will take ownership of the situation and not stop until a satisfactory conclusion is being reached. pac1uk said:
Have you done your marketing on if people would actually buy this ex RND stuff?
The previous owner of my Tuscan spent many thousands of pounds with RND (I have receipts for all components) to supply lots of shiny stuff. From machining block to 4.1 for Ross pistons. Cylinder heard work with up-rated cams.
To put it bluntly it's total garbage. Doesn't produce anymore power, actually down on power. I now have valve seat recession on a couple of valves.
I wouldn't touch this stuff with barge pole.
The previous owner of my Tuscan spent many thousands of pounds with RND (I have receipts for all components) to supply lots of shiny stuff. From machining block to 4.1 for Ross pistons. Cylinder heard work with up-rated cams.
To put it bluntly it's total garbage. Doesn't produce anymore power, actually down on power. I now have valve seat recession on a couple of valves.
I wouldn't touch this stuff with barge pole.
Edited by 900T-R on Wednesday 16th January 14:02
Finally, a very positive post from this thread. Worth a new thread on its own?
One question - my FFF doesn't have followers by definition. With that said, how can you be sure about my cam profiles, or have you seen others?
Bonus question - with my engine producing 443@7500 (at it revs over 8k, we can extrapolate the power curve to be 450@8k), what would be needed to take it to 500?
One question - my FFF doesn't have followers by definition. With that said, how can you be sure about my cam profiles, or have you seen others?
Bonus question - with my engine producing 443@7500 (at it revs over 8k, we can extrapolate the power curve to be 450@8k), what would be needed to take it to 500?
Hi Don,
The bucket tappet head, of course, is a completely different kettle of fish and by definition has nothing to do with the AJP6 head that Al Melling designed. It'd be reasonable to assume that you can't just switch cam profiles from one to another...
Frankly, I fear 500 bhp from a Speed 6 offering good road manners and durability would be a bit of a challenge and, if reachable at all, will have cost implications quite a bit past where the law of diminishing returns kicks in. BMEP will be pretty much near the optimum of you can get from 97 octane fuel where you are now, your choice would be to rev it even higher which will make materials cost spiral out of control and assumes cam profiles that will be inappropriate for road driving, or enlargen the capacity which will drop hp/capacity given that you're still breathing through the same heads (it *is* the most powerful production N/A six already, after all) and will be more or less incompatible with revs that high, given that you will need to increase the stroke and/or reciprocating mass (bigger pistons).
I don't think I've ever heard of S6 race engines producing more than 470 bhp, anyway. Dial that a little back to allow for road biased cam timing etc. and you're about at what you have now.
The 465.8 hp engine is already slightly compromised in that it makes that power @ 7,300 rpm if I remember correctly, yet the stroked bottom end is less than happy (read smooth) above 7K.
Given the above we're aiming for the sort of power you have now on our own project Tuscan (I'd gladly settle for 420+ bhp, even) which we think is ample for the car really, from that point on I'd concentrate on making it lighter instead!
The bucket tappet head, of course, is a completely different kettle of fish and by definition has nothing to do with the AJP6 head that Al Melling designed. It'd be reasonable to assume that you can't just switch cam profiles from one to another...
Frankly, I fear 500 bhp from a Speed 6 offering good road manners and durability would be a bit of a challenge and, if reachable at all, will have cost implications quite a bit past where the law of diminishing returns kicks in. BMEP will be pretty much near the optimum of you can get from 97 octane fuel where you are now, your choice would be to rev it even higher which will make materials cost spiral out of control and assumes cam profiles that will be inappropriate for road driving, or enlargen the capacity which will drop hp/capacity given that you're still breathing through the same heads (it *is* the most powerful production N/A six already, after all) and will be more or less incompatible with revs that high, given that you will need to increase the stroke and/or reciprocating mass (bigger pistons).
I don't think I've ever heard of S6 race engines producing more than 470 bhp, anyway. Dial that a little back to allow for road biased cam timing etc. and you're about at what you have now.
The 465.8 hp engine is already slightly compromised in that it makes that power @ 7,300 rpm if I remember correctly, yet the stroked bottom end is less than happy (read smooth) above 7K.
Given the above we're aiming for the sort of power you have now on our own project Tuscan (I'd gladly settle for 420+ bhp, even) which we think is ample for the car really, from that point on I'd concentrate on making it lighter instead!
Don1 said:
Finally, a very positive post from this thread. Worth a new thread on its own?
One question - my FFF doesn't have followers by definition. With that said, how can you be sure about my cam profiles, or have you seen others?
Bonus question - with my engine producing 443@7500 (at it revs over 8k, we can extrapolate the power curve to be 450@8k), what would be needed to take it to 500?
One question - my FFF doesn't have followers by definition. With that said, how can you be sure about my cam profiles, or have you seen others?
Bonus question - with my engine producing 443@7500 (at it revs over 8k, we can extrapolate the power curve to be 450@8k), what would be needed to take it to 500?
m4tti said:
Interesting!! So RND should take the website down that alludes to them owning the blueprints other objet d'art. So in light of you buying the IP and associated parts does this mean that RND is no more
For now, we're happy with the RND website being online: there's a heap of useful information on it that we have yet to incorporate on a new Speed Eight site, we have yet to work out pricing etc (Brexit beckons) and we're not the Russian revolution keen on erasing history once it doesn't suit us anymore, anyway But indeed, Dave has retired, his single associate left is being taken out of the loop (and I mean that quite literally, they've been set an ultimatum for outstanding work to be released so we can transfer it to a UK outfit we *do* have reason to trust) and the IP now belongs to my business associate André Roessen (owner of the 4.5 Cerbie that the 4.8 AJP belongs to, and a keen, experienced track driver as well), the commercial exploitation and further development of which wlll by our company Speed Eight Performance with immediate effect.
Edited by 900T-R on Wednesday 16th January 15:39
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