Powers 4.5Super Sports & Anti Knock MBE Timeline
Discussion
They certainly are a lot of fun to drive, more so when that nagging doubt in the back of your head that the engine may go pop at any time is removed.
I remember all of the dyno comparisons years ago, when the S6 cars were still relatively new. Most S6's were more or less on the nose when dyno'd, making the manufacturer's claimed BHP. The older V8's were another story completely, and a lot of money was required to get them even close to their stated power figures. Not so the S6. They were always fast in standard form, but the 4.3/4.5 upgrade takes them to another level, especially where torque is concerned. (more so coming from a 3.6).
I can only speak for myself, but I find the 4.3 in my Tam absolutely perfect, as I bought my car for fun on twisties. and if I'm honest, the car's top end power is more than I can handle. Let's not forget that these are quite basic lightweight, high powered cars with very little to no driver aids. If we're honest here, there are now many very capable standard hatches and saloons with so many driver aids that, unless you're a driving god, would run rings around most of our cars in anything but perhaps straight line speed. but where's the fun in that?
Having big BHP is great, but misjudge a corner and you'll carry straight on into the verge or worse. Having pissing contests in who has the biggest BHP is moot these days, I think, as there is always someone who is faster and, more importantly, the electronics to use that power.
For me, a TVR is about the overall package, the driving experience, and the way they make you feel when you drive them, feelings that are missing from more modern 'safer' cars.
I paid £9k for my upgrade. At the time, I was quoted around £21k for an LS3 conversion. With hindsight, I am glad I chose the 4.3. Being an owner of such a rare car, I wonder how LS versions will fare regarding future valuations. So, for me, it isn't all about how much BHP my car has, it is the overall package that I love. There will always be something faster, but that doesn't necessarily mean better - unless of course you bought the car simply for pissing contests...
I remember all of the dyno comparisons years ago, when the S6 cars were still relatively new. Most S6's were more or less on the nose when dyno'd, making the manufacturer's claimed BHP. The older V8's were another story completely, and a lot of money was required to get them even close to their stated power figures. Not so the S6. They were always fast in standard form, but the 4.3/4.5 upgrade takes them to another level, especially where torque is concerned. (more so coming from a 3.6).
I can only speak for myself, but I find the 4.3 in my Tam absolutely perfect, as I bought my car for fun on twisties. and if I'm honest, the car's top end power is more than I can handle. Let's not forget that these are quite basic lightweight, high powered cars with very little to no driver aids. If we're honest here, there are now many very capable standard hatches and saloons with so many driver aids that, unless you're a driving god, would run rings around most of our cars in anything but perhaps straight line speed. but where's the fun in that?
Having big BHP is great, but misjudge a corner and you'll carry straight on into the verge or worse. Having pissing contests in who has the biggest BHP is moot these days, I think, as there is always someone who is faster and, more importantly, the electronics to use that power.
For me, a TVR is about the overall package, the driving experience, and the way they make you feel when you drive them, feelings that are missing from more modern 'safer' cars.
I paid £9k for my upgrade. At the time, I was quoted around £21k for an LS3 conversion. With hindsight, I am glad I chose the 4.3. Being an owner of such a rare car, I wonder how LS versions will fare regarding future valuations. So, for me, it isn't all about how much BHP my car has, it is the overall package that I love. There will always be something faster, but that doesn't necessarily mean better - unless of course you bought the car simply for pissing contests...
Totally agree Chris.
The savings over the LS were MASSIVE but ultimately if I had ever wanted a V8 I would have got the ajp (in the first place). For me the S6 was a choice and it's the "British" racing engine.
This was never about which engine to get or a pissing contest for that matter it seems quoted figures and a produced graph rub insecurities
I'm now looking at heat shielding more of the individual components (battery/starter etc) as in my early experiences of restoring all heat shields to bulkhead and inner wings is that the heat is no longer absorbed or able to penetrate those areas so rather than getting out they are contained in the bay for longer thus meaning the parts are exposed to the heat for longer.
The savings over the LS were MASSIVE but ultimately if I had ever wanted a V8 I would have got the ajp (in the first place). For me the S6 was a choice and it's the "British" racing engine.
This was never about which engine to get or a pissing contest for that matter it seems quoted figures and a produced graph rub insecurities
I'm now looking at heat shielding more of the individual components (battery/starter etc) as in my early experiences of restoring all heat shields to bulkhead and inner wings is that the heat is no longer absorbed or able to penetrate those areas so rather than getting out they are contained in the bay for longer thus meaning the parts are exposed to the heat for longer.
chris watton said:
They certainly are a lot of fun to drive, more so when that nagging doubt in the back of your head that the engine may go pop at any time is removed.
I remember all of the dyno comparisons years ago, when the S6 cars were still relatively new. Most S6's were more or less on the nose when dyno'd, making the manufacturer's claimed BHP. The older V8's were another story completely, and a lot of money was required to get them even close to their stated power figures. Not so the S6. They were always fast in standard form, but the 4.3/4.5 upgrade takes them to another level, especially where torque is concerned. (more so coming from a 3.6).
I can only speak for myself, but I find the 4.3 in my Tam absolutely perfect, as I bought my car for fun on twisties. and if I'm honest, the car's top end power is more than I can handle. Let's not forget that these are quite basic lightweight, high powered cars with very little to no driver aids. If we're honest here, there are now many very capable standard hatches and saloons with so many driver aids that, unless you're a driving god, would run rings around most of our cars in anything but perhaps straight line speed. but where's the fun in that?
Having big BHP is great, but misjudge a corner and you'll carry straight on into the verge or worse. Having pissing contests in who has the biggest BHP is moot these days, I think, as there is always someone who is faster and, more importantly, the electronics to use that power.
For me, a TVR is about the overall package, the driving experience, and the way they make you feel when you drive them, feelings that are missing from more modern 'safer' cars.
I paid £9k for my upgrade. At the time, I was quoted around £21k for an LS3 conversion. With hindsight, I am glad I chose the 4.3. Being an owner of such a rare car, I wonder how LS versions will fare regarding future valuations. So, for me, it isn't all about how much BHP my car has, it is the overall package that I love. There will always be something faster, but that doesn't necessarily mean better - unless of course you bought the car simply for pissing contests...
Now I know I've been known to go on about 1/4 mile times ( as it's fact ) and proves what you have. Cars with similar dyno figures produce almost identical times. But the total irony is since I set that time for my own personal reasons as it's actually slow compared to many Chims let alone more exotic cars I've now removed loud straight though exhausts and over about 6 months I've softened the car( removed adjustable shocks) and returned it to the best road car I can muster. I remember all of the dyno comparisons years ago, when the S6 cars were still relatively new. Most S6's were more or less on the nose when dyno'd, making the manufacturer's claimed BHP. The older V8's were another story completely, and a lot of money was required to get them even close to their stated power figures. Not so the S6. They were always fast in standard form, but the 4.3/4.5 upgrade takes them to another level, especially where torque is concerned. (more so coming from a 3.6).
I can only speak for myself, but I find the 4.3 in my Tam absolutely perfect, as I bought my car for fun on twisties. and if I'm honest, the car's top end power is more than I can handle. Let's not forget that these are quite basic lightweight, high powered cars with very little to no driver aids. If we're honest here, there are now many very capable standard hatches and saloons with so many driver aids that, unless you're a driving god, would run rings around most of our cars in anything but perhaps straight line speed. but where's the fun in that?
Having big BHP is great, but misjudge a corner and you'll carry straight on into the verge or worse. Having pissing contests in who has the biggest BHP is moot these days, I think, as there is always someone who is faster and, more importantly, the electronics to use that power.
For me, a TVR is about the overall package, the driving experience, and the way they make you feel when you drive them, feelings that are missing from more modern 'safer' cars.
I paid £9k for my upgrade. At the time, I was quoted around £21k for an LS3 conversion. With hindsight, I am glad I chose the 4.3. Being an owner of such a rare car, I wonder how LS versions will fare regarding future valuations. So, for me, it isn't all about how much BHP my car has, it is the overall package that I love. There will always be something faster, but that doesn't necessarily mean better - unless of course you bought the car simply for pissing contests...
It's now marginally slower with huge original Catt in place, quiet with standard exhaust and the ride with standard shocks and decent soft road tyre's is rather agreeable.
I've also reduced front camber etc.
It's much nicer to own and drive this way.
My engine was always built with longevity and smooth ride as a pre requisite for me.
I'll not change that for any amount of HP.
These cars are very dangerous if abused, it's not about that is it.
I have more than enough power for driving at 70 mph. There is nowhere near me I can drive fast and safe so I don't do it. It's the overall package and the engine is only part of it.
Brakes turn me on just cruising to the lights, good over bumps and general use is so much more important. All the cars I know that are race inspired hardly ever go on the road,,, that tells you everything. Brilliant cars but not very subtle.
Doms engines are super smooth and a joy to own whatever power they produce.
Great thread and I think most of us with a Dom engine will have a good idea of how fast this one will feel. Numbers are nothing.
Edited by Classic Chim on Monday 21st August 09:09
So if Powers at the road figures are about the same as SRR at the fly ( correct me if I've im wrong) then I set a 1/4 mile time ( look it up) on the leaderboard that is very competitive yet going by this reconning did it with 250 hp and less than 300 ft lb torque. Does that sound reasonable?
12.603 which beat a massively fast Carb on race tyre's,,, just saying
Doesn't make sense to me!
I'm not trying to upset anyone, this is very worrying,,, I thought I had nigh on 300 hp in my RV.
I'm long past caring how fast any of them are really but this doesn't make sense.
12.603 which beat a massively fast Carb on race tyre's,,, just saying
Doesn't make sense to me!
I'm not trying to upset anyone, this is very worrying,,, I thought I had nigh on 300 hp in my RV.
I'm long past caring how fast any of them are really but this doesn't make sense.
Edited by Classic Chim on Monday 21st August 09:07
There is no doubt your 1/4 mile is very impressive, well done! But 1/4 mile times are very dependant on the skill of the driver, which was why it was thought the tests listed previously over a mile would be more representative to measure the performance of our cars.
The best way to establish an independent view of the power of your car is to take it to SRR and get it measured. I have no connection with SRR, but they have measured 1000's of cars, not just TVR's and are well respected.
Because I like to ensure my cars are working to spec, I've had all of the TVR's I've owned over the last 10 years on their rollers. All of the S6 cars made between 345 and 375 bhp, both of my Griff 500's between 290 and 300 bhp.
The Cerb's engine had been rebuilt (standard 4L spec) at Powers Performance and made within 1 bhp the same power there as measured by SRR, so I can confirm from personal experience the generally held experience that Powers at the wheel figures match SRR's power at the fly figures.
I also had my current Griff measured by North London Dyno (mobile) at a TVRCC day and it made 297 bhp, so once again backing up SRR's figures.
The best way to establish an independent view of the power of your car is to take it to SRR and get it measured. I have no connection with SRR, but they have measured 1000's of cars, not just TVR's and are well respected.
Because I like to ensure my cars are working to spec, I've had all of the TVR's I've owned over the last 10 years on their rollers. All of the S6 cars made between 345 and 375 bhp, both of my Griff 500's between 290 and 300 bhp.
The Cerb's engine had been rebuilt (standard 4L spec) at Powers Performance and made within 1 bhp the same power there as measured by SRR, so I can confirm from personal experience the generally held experience that Powers at the wheel figures match SRR's power at the fly figures.
I also had my current Griff measured by North London Dyno (mobile) at a TVRCC day and it made 297 bhp, so once again backing up SRR's figures.
As I say going by this I've got less hp than a standard engine.
I have no interest in another rolling road session.
I find this talk of rolling road figures as pure speculation
Lloyds and Powers read the same at the wheels are we saying LLOYDS is wrong too. Pffft.
The amount of road train loss could be contested I suppose.
Powers at the wheels Lloyds at the hub yet they are very similar in both peak numbers and at every 500 Rev intervals,,,
It's totally ridiculous to suggest this stuff without proof.
So how do we know SRR are accurate?
Let's not forget the likes of Powers dyno loads of cars that are not Tvr.
I agree 1/4 mile times might reflect driver aggression but the 60 ft times allow you to calculate the start out. The clock never lies and as the 1 mile times show, the real power comes in at 140 mph on the more powerful cars.
All I can say is my cars bloody fast for one with 250 Bhp compared to cars with 350+ If the statements above are to be believed. A standard Chim 4.6 won't go much under 14 seconds so what power do they posses 220 Bhp?????
I have no interest in another rolling road session.
I find this talk of rolling road figures as pure speculation
Lloyds and Powers read the same at the wheels are we saying LLOYDS is wrong too. Pffft.
The amount of road train loss could be contested I suppose.
Powers at the wheels Lloyds at the hub yet they are very similar in both peak numbers and at every 500 Rev intervals,,,
It's totally ridiculous to suggest this stuff without proof.
So how do we know SRR are accurate?
Let's not forget the likes of Powers dyno loads of cars that are not Tvr.
I agree 1/4 mile times might reflect driver aggression but the 60 ft times allow you to calculate the start out. The clock never lies and as the 1 mile times show, the real power comes in at 140 mph on the more powerful cars.
All I can say is my cars bloody fast for one with 250 Bhp compared to cars with 350+ If the statements above are to be believed. A standard Chim 4.6 won't go much under 14 seconds so what power do they posses 220 Bhp?????
I raced a Suburu with 300 Bhp which is what my Chim has, we were neck and neck. I raced a tvr with 320 bhp he was ahead of me all the way by a few ft/yards
The power figures and your times reflect clearly your power output as well as the drivers ability.
This is why I did drag racing, I wanted to compare against other known hp cars, it all correlated exactly as I'd expect.
12.603. 250 hp yeah right!
The power figures and your times reflect clearly your power output as well as the drivers ability.
This is why I did drag racing, I wanted to compare against other known hp cars, it all correlated exactly as I'd expect.
12.603. 250 hp yeah right!
Edited by Classic Chim on Monday 21st August 13:45
a dyno is a great tool if modifications are done to the engine. put it on the dyno before and after. of course same dyno
and youll see what has happend. therefore perfect. anything else is plenty of speculation. to find real proof of what sort
whatever get some cars with similar horses on the same dyno and then there is a car to car comparison.......
and youll see what has happend. therefore perfect. anything else is plenty of speculation. to find real proof of what sort
whatever get some cars with similar horses on the same dyno and then there is a car to car comparison.......
Classic Chim said:
I raced a Suburu with 300 Bhp which is what my Chim has, we were neck and neck. I raced a tvr with 320 bhp he was ahead of me all the way by a few ft/yards
The power figures and your times reflect clearly your power output as well as the drivers ability.
This is why I did drag racing, I wanted to compare against other known hp cars, it all correlated exactly as I'd expect.
12.603. 250 hp yeah right!
I look forward to learning the drag racing scene with you and your pals (if allowed) the best comment you make re toning down for the road. That ultimately is what my car is about, when I do drag tyres pressures will be untouched and left at the road recommended of 28psi reason being that's where I will be enjoying the car most so I want to know what it does in that guise. I will alter for track as a safety and not for time chasing.. hell I might even have the windows down and the system up some days lolThe power figures and your times reflect clearly your power output as well as the drivers ability.
This is why I did drag racing, I wanted to compare against other known hp cars, it all correlated exactly as I'd expect.
12.603. 250 hp yeah right!
Edited by Classic Chim on Monday 21st August 13:45
Classic Chim said:
I raced a Suburu with 300 Bhp which is what my Chim has, we were neck and neck. I raced a tvr with 320 bhp he was ahead of me all the way by a few ft/yards
The power figures and your times reflect clearly your power output as well as the drivers ability.
This is why I did drag racing, I wanted to compare against other known hp cars, it all correlated exactly as I'd expect.
Sorry to state the obvious but weight has a lot to do with drag racing results; the BHP per tonne is far more relevant than just power. Had to mention this because I managed some very successful drag racing results with a 100bhp go-kart (that was in the dark ages before they changed the rules from 'first past the line' to bracket racing). The only recent drag racing I have dabbled in showed that my standard T350 could beat far more powerful but heavier machines - assuming I could get away from the lights without just smoking all the power away trashing my tyres - the downside of not enough weight The power figures and your times reflect clearly your power output as well as the drivers ability.
This is why I did drag racing, I wanted to compare against other known hp cars, it all correlated exactly as I'd expect.
Edited by Classic Chim on Monday 21st August 13:45
Classic Chim said:
As I say going by this I've got less hp than a standard engine.
I have no interest in another rolling road session.
I find this talk of rolling road figures as pure speculation
Lloyds and Powers read the same at the wheels are we saying LLOYDS is wrong too. Pffft.
The amount of road train loss could be contested I suppose.
Powers at the wheels Lloyds at the hub yet they are very similar in both peak numbers and at every 500 Rev intervals,,,
It's totally ridiculous to suggest this stuff without proof.
So how do we know SRR are accurate?
Let's not forget the likes of Powers dyno loads of cars that are not Tvr.
Powers recently dyno'd a new Mustang.. It made Just over 400bhp at the wheels.. The factory figures for those at the flywheel are 415bhp.. I have no interest in another rolling road session.
I find this talk of rolling road figures as pure speculation
Lloyds and Powers read the same at the wheels are we saying LLOYDS is wrong too. Pffft.
The amount of road train loss could be contested I suppose.
Powers at the wheels Lloyds at the hub yet they are very similar in both peak numbers and at every 500 Rev intervals,,,
It's totally ridiculous to suggest this stuff without proof.
So how do we know SRR are accurate?
Let's not forget the likes of Powers dyno loads of cars that are not Tvr.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest "this stuff". If Lloyds run the same dyno as Powers, as Joolz said above, it is known to over-read. It is also easy to establish this with maths..
SRR are widely regarded as cock on, they are within 1-2bhp of Evolve in Luton, who are also regarded to be knob on. You don't get erroneous figures from either of those dynos. I've been on Evolve's rollers and the results were cock on what you would expect.
Ignoring figures for a minute, Dom does build good engines, he knows what he is doing, and Alistair is very happy with his end product.
All this dyno talk is so repetitive. Seems the OP used the same dyno for comparison purposes. IMHO there is a point at which more power is pointless for road use, this TVR is probably about on the limit now. I know my McLaren is possibly past that point as IMO it is too fast to use much of the power most of the time.
I am sure the car feels awesome with unstoppable acceleration and pull on the road, making it an even more fun TVR. Enjoy!
I am sure the car feels awesome with unstoppable acceleration and pull on the road, making it an even more fun TVR. Enjoy!
Targarama said:
All this dyno talk is so repetitive. Seems the OP used the same dyno for comparison purposes. IMHO there is a point at which more power is pointless for road use, this TVR is probably about on the limit now. I know my McLaren is possibly past that point as IMO it is too fast to use much of the power most of the time.
I am sure the car feels awesome with unstoppable acceleration and pull on the road, making it an even more fun TVR. Enjoy!
There was no before dyno, and it was dyno'd at Powers, as Powers built the engine and mapped it.. I am sure the car feels awesome with unstoppable acceleration and pull on the road, making it an even more fun TVR. Enjoy!
However, I completely agree with the last bit.. More than enough for the road and I would imagine the driver! Makes the right noises, goes quickly. Jobbed.
Cheers all but yep lets take the *dyne talk off. No readout before was due to being prepped dom noticed excess oil he then investigated and saw the cracked liners and block damage... he then advised he really didn't want to as he feared it could all go bang over the RR no just burn through oil the way it did. (pics are early in the thread).
Totally mental and a great drive... numbers or not that was what was produced. I am very happy and the drive just gets better and better. it really has become a real daily capable car (once i sought this current drain/Redtop issue). My 1st trackday in the car ever (not including britcar24 formation lap at Silverstone) comes in december. hopefully will be dry but if not TCS will be turned ON strong!
Totally mental and a great drive... numbers or not that was what was produced. I am very happy and the drive just gets better and better. it really has become a real daily capable car (once i sought this current drain/Redtop issue). My 1st trackday in the car ever (not including britcar24 formation lap at Silverstone) comes in december. hopefully will be dry but if not TCS will be turned ON strong!
Edited by Incognegro on Friday 1st September 11:26
After further testing on my Redtop... the battery is fine. so that points to either a lurking parasite or my cute charger not being able to fully charge and or the eyelet indicator is showing faults.
New ctek 5.0 ordered anyway as the 4003 is now 6yrs old
Hopefully I can have a cured car with new DRLs fitted sometime next week.
New ctek 5.0 ordered anyway as the 4003 is now 6yrs old
Hopefully I can have a cured car with new DRLs fitted sometime next week.
RedSpike66 said:
The only true way to compare Dyno figures as we all know is to have both cars on the same Dyno within about 15 mins of each other.... Therefore page down to the bottom of this hyperlink https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
to see a direct comparison between a Factory Standard Sag and a TVR Power 4.5SS Sag....
Note: when I had my Sag de-catted and re-mapped by TVR Power we ended up with +5bhp 'at the wheels' figure compared with that Surrey RR figure, but a calculated 'at the fly' figure of north of 400bhp. I can categorically state that de-catting and re-mapping did not get me an extra 40bhp !!!!!!!! And it certainly sounded better but it wasn;t 40bhp faster !!!
it is widely accepted that Powers 'at the wheels' figure is the same as Surrey RR 'at the fly figure' and that the Powers 'at the fly' calculated figure is, well, hopeful shall we say and not 100% accurate
No doubt Incognegro is very happy with the result of his investment and that is what is important... It's great to get better figures but it's nigh on impossible to compare unless they're all on the same dyno
Nice post. When I read the number above I had to laugh. 33% gain is b*lls for 500cc gain and lighter internals. Power rollers have always been cloud cuckoo land and as above a few people have should SRR are blob on with their numbers (at the fly on a properly calibrated set of modern rollers) vs the crazy stuff Power sell people!to see a direct comparison between a Factory Standard Sag and a TVR Power 4.5SS Sag....
Note: when I had my Sag de-catted and re-mapped by TVR Power we ended up with +5bhp 'at the wheels' figure compared with that Surrey RR figure, but a calculated 'at the fly' figure of north of 400bhp. I can categorically state that de-catting and re-mapping did not get me an extra 40bhp !!!!!!!! And it certainly sounded better but it wasn;t 40bhp faster !!!
it is widely accepted that Powers 'at the wheels' figure is the same as Surrey RR 'at the fly figure' and that the Powers 'at the fly' calculated figure is, well, hopeful shall we say and not 100% accurate
No doubt Incognegro is very happy with the result of his investment and that is what is important... It's great to get better figures but it's nigh on impossible to compare unless they're all on the same dyno
Edited by RedSpike66 on Friday 18th August 16:54
Very nice run down to N Garner open day and lots on display there. Gasket on race proved cam cover is well and truly gone so plumes of smoke were more frequent and some now even coming up through the gearstick area.
An original found and being fitted on Wednesday which excites me as that will make me just feel easy. Now going back to the driving experience... the Rev limit buzz I’ve had set at 6800rpm (to give me time to change without bottoming or losing power) this thing gets there at with alarming ease and only been to 6k in 5th while screaming
hell!
What’s usable on the road makes this car so easy to drive as it requires very little effort... my everyday driving setup is with t&cs set to allow 10mph wheel slip however I have noted I tend to sense the slide before it cuts in so I have flicked it to 6mph
Would I recommend the 4.5?.. if you want a better package and more potent car YES,
An original found and being fitted on Wednesday which excites me as that will make me just feel easy. Now going back to the driving experience... the Rev limit buzz I’ve had set at 6800rpm (to give me time to change without bottoming or losing power) this thing gets there at with alarming ease and only been to 6k in 5th while screaming
hell!What’s usable on the road makes this car so easy to drive as it requires very little effort... my everyday driving setup is with t&cs set to allow 10mph wheel slip however I have noted I tend to sense the slide before it cuts in so I have flicked it to 6mph
Would I recommend the 4.5?.. if you want a better package and more potent car YES,
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