Have you ever heard about modifying data stored in a BMW key

Have you ever heard about modifying data stored in a BMW key

Author
Discussion

JQ

5,691 posts

178 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
I think there's one assumption being made which is not altogether warranted by the OP's actual posts.

I doubt this even took place in the UK - I suspect Jon's native language is not English, and the UK justice system is irrelevant. The thread is about the technicalities of whether it's possible, and speculation about testimony credibility is not really relevant.
Quite possibly, however, I'm an expert in my field and whilst I find PH an incredible resource of information on stuff I'm not an expert in, I wouldn't dream of asking questions of my own topic. Whilst I don't profess to know everything, if I was stumped on a work issue, I have a long list of colleagues and other experts I can draw upon to assist. I know their levels of experience and qualifications. The last place I'd look would be a forum of strangers who profess to know everything about everything.

Apologies if this view upsets the OP, but I also find it slightly odd that these questions are being asked here. I think I'd understand it more if he'd been a member for 10 years, but he's joined just to ask these questions, on a topic I presume he's being paid to investigate.

Jon_Targaryen

Original Poster:

18 posts

78 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
I think there's one assumption being made which is not altogether warranted by the OP's actual posts.

I doubt this even took place in the UK - I suspect Jon's native language is not English, and the UK justice system is irrelevant. The thread is about the technicalities of whether it's possible, and speculation about testimony credibility is not really relevant.
That's it. Yes, I'm not from the UK, I just want to know if this action can be done.

Glasgowrob

3,232 posts

120 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
Jon_Targaryen said:
Thanks! I'm interested in the second one. How could it be possible? Instrumental needed? Process?

Thanks and regards.
not something for an open forum but if you delve round various sites on the internet you'll find these for sale, from a few hundred pounds

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
My understanding a GPRS signal couldn't transmit the required information from a key to a car even with an extender. I've seen it tried before and didn't work.

Fore Left

1,411 posts

181 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
The Spruce goose said:
My understanding a GPRS signal couldn't transmit the required information from a key to a car even with an extender. I've seen it tried before and didn't work.
Car remotes use radio frequencies not sound so no, its not possible.

No wait, it is..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U86P_ByfgY8

rofl

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
Fore Left said:
Car remotes use radio frequencies not sound so no, its not possible.

No wait, it is..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U86P_ByfgY8

rofl
you can rofl all you want the video is fake maybe spend more than 30 seconds and have read up about transmitting frequencies you ignoramus.



Edited by The Spruce goose on Monday 18th September 18:52

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
Surely all it'd take is something that can receive the frequencies involved, convert them to data packets, send as data, then convert back...?

OldGermanHeaps

3,801 posts

177 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
Surely all it'd take is something that can receive the frequencies involved, convert them to data packets, send as data, then convert back...?
That would only work if there is very low latency in the repeated signal, any good 2 way radio protocol would check for delayed response and disregard the received data if it falls outside the correct timing window.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
OldGermanHeaps said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Surely all it'd take is something that can receive the frequencies involved, convert them to data packets, send as data, then convert back...?
That would only work if there is very low latency in the repeated signal, any good 2 way radio protocol would check for delayed response and disregard the received data if it falls outside the correct timing window.
Oh, sure.

I've already outlined what I think's the most likely truth.

Fore Left

1,411 posts

181 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
The Spruce goose said:
Fore Left said:
Car remotes use radio frequencies not sound so no, its not possible.

No wait, it is..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U86P_ByfgY8

rofl
you can rofl all you want the video is fake maybe spend more than 30 seconds and have read up about transmitting frequencies you ignoramus.



Edited by The Spruce goose on Monday 18th September 18:52
Is it. Really. You'll be telling me magicians don't actually saw their assistants in half next rolleyes

Wait. I think I'm picking up Radio 2 on my hearing aid rofl (again)


Edited by Fore Left on Monday 18th September 20:11

OldGermanHeaps

3,801 posts

177 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
Oh, sure.

I've already outlined what I think's the most likely truth.
I agree with that assesment. I was just answering a technical question.

Jonesy23

4,650 posts

135 months

Monday 18th September 2017
quotequote all
OldGermanHeaps said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Surely all it'd take is something that can receive the frequencies involved, convert them to data packets, send as data, then convert back...?
That would only work if there is very low latency in the repeated signal, any good 2 way radio protocol would check for delayed response and disregard the received data if it falls outside the correct timing window.
The designs on these things generally never bothered with time domain checks so there was a reasonable window for a relay attack to work. It all relied too much on the protocol being secure without doing enough tests to be sure the key was local.

You also don't usually need to bother to maintain a relay as the systems usually don't check after a start or whatever is authorised - avoids problems with keys getting blocked in your pocket once you're going.

But really depends on the exact system and where it expects the key to be.

Proper logged parameter data to me seems unlikely from a relay attack as that would be too early for there to be anything to record beyond a start?

Anyway isn't a relay attack usually for the unlock only and the start/stop bit done by force authorising a new key?

cadmunkey

447 posts

88 months

Tuesday 19th September 2017
quotequote all
I'm sorry Jon but your client is guilty as sin. Someone already beat me to Occams Razor, but surely even you are intelligent enough to realise your client is a prize bullstter.