How was a fastest lap possible on a worn out hard tyre?
Discussion
Theories chaps?
Now the dust has settled on the race, this particular fastest lap still leaves me confused.
As we're very used too, we know old hard tyres are not great for pace. So often we see cars dropping back on the wrong age, wrong type of rubber. The tyres are literally designed to behave a very specific way. How the hell did Lewis get that car, on those tyres, round faster than anyone else? Bottas was on softs and also went for fastest lap...
As an aside, did anyone make note of which other drivers also went for a fastest lap attempt and what rubber they were on?
Now the dust has settled on the race, this particular fastest lap still leaves me confused.
As we're very used too, we know old hard tyres are not great for pace. So often we see cars dropping back on the wrong age, wrong type of rubber. The tyres are literally designed to behave a very specific way. How the hell did Lewis get that car, on those tyres, round faster than anyone else? Bottas was on softs and also went for fastest lap...
As an aside, did anyone make note of which other drivers also went for a fastest lap attempt and what rubber they were on?
The thing to remember when Ferrari, or Red Bull are posting incredibly quick times in 2020 Pre-season testing is that PU output is very elastic.
The notion that a PU might output 1000bhp on the Dyno means absolutely nothing. The key limiting factors are a fuel flow of 100ltrs / hour and a max fuel load of 110 kgs of fuel for the race and engine life.
These two parameters allow huge chunks of Smoke and Mirrors during the race/season. These limits did not change for Silverstone, it just the way things are. Mercedes have a very significant advantage over the other players.
Their end of season results are likely to go up as the PUs do not have to survive Friday free practice.
The notion that a PU might output 1000bhp on the Dyno means absolutely nothing. The key limiting factors are a fuel flow of 100ltrs / hour and a max fuel load of 110 kgs of fuel for the race and engine life.
These two parameters allow huge chunks of Smoke and Mirrors during the race/season. These limits did not change for Silverstone, it just the way things are. Mercedes have a very significant advantage over the other players.
Their end of season results are likely to go up as the PUs do not have to survive Friday free practice.
If there's one thing I've learned about the Pirelli tyres over the last few years, its not to be surprised by anything tbh.
Dunno what Lewis told the tv ppl but he more or less said on the main stage after the race he won the race on Friday when he found a setup that really suited. I'd had a couple of beers by this stage so feel free to correct but I'm sure that was the gist. I personally think he mind have kept something up his sleeve from a certain Finnish national though
Dunno what Lewis told the tv ppl but he more or less said on the main stage after the race he won the race on Friday when he found a setup that really suited. I'd had a couple of beers by this stage so feel free to correct but I'm sure that was the gist. I personally think he mind have kept something up his sleeve from a certain Finnish national though
I think it tells us how much Mercedes actually have in hand and how much Hamilton has in hand over Bottas in race conditions.
I have never been his biggest fan but I have to hand it to Lewis, he has worked tirelessly on any weakness he has to become the most complete driver the sport has ever seen and I applaud that.
I have never been his biggest fan but I have to hand it to Lewis, he has worked tirelessly on any weakness he has to become the most complete driver the sport has ever seen and I applaud that.
All laudable theories and I don't disagree with any of them.
But he beat Bottas who was on fresh softs. I'm sure he was chuffed to bits with his car setup and maybe that did give him a little extra which is why he was reeling Bottas in early on. That's fine - but it's not (in theory at least) enough to make 30 lap old hard tyres remotely as quick as fresh softs.
In any other situation we would be laughing at the idea of a driver thinking they can out-pace their team mate with such different rubber. If Lewis hadn't got the fastest lap and someone on PH piped up saying that was evidence of him not being better than Bottas, we would all have said that was nonsense as the fastest lap for him on those tyres would have been 'impossible'.
The difference in rubber should have been at least 1 second a lap, probably closer to 2 seconds given the difference in compound and the age. The difference in setup between the two cars can't offset that kind of advantage surely?
All I can think is that it was a combination of many things. Lewis driving at his very finest, Bottas making some subtle and unnoticed mistakes, engine mode, setup and perhaps sheer bravery. Whatever the individual contributing factors were, each must have been exploited to the max to offset the tyre delta.
Either the stopwatch was wrong, or Lewis pulled out one of the finest laps of his life and at the exact same time Bottas was having a snooze.
But he beat Bottas who was on fresh softs. I'm sure he was chuffed to bits with his car setup and maybe that did give him a little extra which is why he was reeling Bottas in early on. That's fine - but it's not (in theory at least) enough to make 30 lap old hard tyres remotely as quick as fresh softs.
In any other situation we would be laughing at the idea of a driver thinking they can out-pace their team mate with such different rubber. If Lewis hadn't got the fastest lap and someone on PH piped up saying that was evidence of him not being better than Bottas, we would all have said that was nonsense as the fastest lap for him on those tyres would have been 'impossible'.
The difference in rubber should have been at least 1 second a lap, probably closer to 2 seconds given the difference in compound and the age. The difference in setup between the two cars can't offset that kind of advantage surely?
All I can think is that it was a combination of many things. Lewis driving at his very finest, Bottas making some subtle and unnoticed mistakes, engine mode, setup and perhaps sheer bravery. Whatever the individual contributing factors were, each must have been exploited to the max to offset the tyre delta.
Either the stopwatch was wrong, or Lewis pulled out one of the finest laps of his life and at the exact same time Bottas was having a snooze.
With fuel flow limit of 100 litres per hour, is this pro rated per lap?
I wonder if you can run under that limit for 10 laps, and then use the remainder of the balance for a one lap banzai?
As if you could add 10% additional fuel flow that would be a massive gain everywhere. However, everyone would be doing it?
I wonder if you can run under that limit for 10 laps, and then use the remainder of the balance for a one lap banzai?
As if you could add 10% additional fuel flow that would be a massive gain everywhere. However, everyone would be doing it?
I think Teddy is right in his comment about Friday, BUT noticed it in commentary in FP on Friday (don't recall if 1 or 2) and mentioned it.
HAM did 4 or 5 laps consecutively at a very high pace during a race sim. Nothing to trouble the timing sheets compared to what others were doing in other simulations but he saw it and called it out.
Be good if someone had the lap data to show it.
HAM did 4 or 5 laps consecutively at a very high pace during a race sim. Nothing to trouble the timing sheets compared to what others were doing in other simulations but he saw it and called it out.
Be good if someone had the lap data to show it.
RemarkLima said:
With fuel flow limit of 100 litres per hour, is this pro rated per lap?
I wonder if you can run under that limit for 10 laps, and then use the remainder of the balance for a one lap banzai?
As if you could add 10% additional fuel flow that would be a massive gain everywhere. However, everyone would be doing it?
They have to run under that limit to make the race distance. In normal race modes they're probably using 60-70% of the per hour limit.I wonder if you can run under that limit for 10 laps, and then use the remainder of the balance for a one lap banzai?
As if you could add 10% additional fuel flow that would be a massive gain everywhere. However, everyone would be doing it?
That's not to say they can for one lap exceed the per hour limit - even though the average usage per hour would remain within the limit, the peak usage would exceed the limit which isn't allowed.
In quali/party mode etc the cars all run up against that same 100kg p/h limit. No car can exceed it, even briefly.
I'm sure he was in an engine mode that ran to the limit, but then bottas would have been too - he was also going for a fastest lap.
My initial thought was that Bottas thought he had it in the bag and when Lewis starting putting in purple sectors on the last lap it was too late for him to react and do anything about it. You'd have thought Bottas would have done the same on his last lap to secure it though so who knows.
bobbo89 said:
My initial thought was that Bottas thought he had it in the bag and when Lewis starting putting in purple sectors on the last lap it was too late for him to react and do anything about it. You'd have thought Bottas would have done the same on his last lap to secure it though so who knows.
Hamilton didn't put in purples. Two were greens. He just put it all together. It was a remarkable lap.I agree with you about Bottas' beliefs. Also, I can't remember the last time the fastest lap was the last one. Vettel tended to post them on the penultimate one back in the day.
Wolff seemed not to know whether to praise Hamilton or to bury him. He was obviously impressed by the speed, but not too convinced by the risk.
Whatever, it was a remarkable lap.
Derek Smith said:
Hamilton didn't put in purples. Two were greens. He just put it all together. It was a remarkable lap.
I agree with you about Bottas' beliefs. Also, I can't remember the last time the fastest lap was the last one. Vettel tended to post them on the penultimate one back in the day.
Wolff seemed not to know whether to praise Hamilton or to bury him. He was obviously impressed by the speed, but not too convinced by the risk.
Whatever, it was a remarkable lap.
Yep, that's the only conclusion I can come to. He's mega anyway but even more so at Silverstone, proper mic drop of a lap! I agree with you about Bottas' beliefs. Also, I can't remember the last time the fastest lap was the last one. Vettel tended to post them on the penultimate one back in the day.
Wolff seemed not to know whether to praise Hamilton or to bury him. He was obviously impressed by the speed, but not too convinced by the risk.
Whatever, it was a remarkable lap.
Bottas more than likely took the best out of the softs within the first few laps out of the pits. I seem to recall he also had no new sets left, so he had to get his attempt in quickly after the stop, at which point he was still carrying 5-6 laps extra fuel than lewis did on his last lap attempt.
Also, take a look at this pic from Lewis as he finished:
They look in very good condition. No graining, rings or wear or blisters (just marbles). He managed them perfectly. So, decent tyres, (at which point were probably healthier than the ones Bottas had) and multiple uncontested fuel saving laps meant he could turn up the wick on the last go.
Also, take a look at this pic from Lewis as he finished:
They look in very good condition. No graining, rings or wear or blisters (just marbles). He managed them perfectly. So, decent tyres, (at which point were probably healthier than the ones Bottas had) and multiple uncontested fuel saving laps meant he could turn up the wick on the last go.
Edited by Andy S15 on Wednesday 17th July 09:01
Andy S15 said:
Bottas more than likely took the best out of the softs within the first few laps out of the pits. I seem to recall he also had no new sets left, so he had to get his attempt in quickly after the stop, at which point he was still carrying 5-6 laps extra fuel than lewis did on his last lap attempt.
Also, take a look at this pic from Lewis as he finished:
They look in very good condition. No graining, rings or wear or blisters. He managed them perfectly. So, decent tyres, (at which point were probably healthier than the ones Bottas had) and multiple uncontested fuel saving laps meant he could turn up the wick on the last go.
Well remembered. He'd probably put in a qually lap on them. Also, take a look at this pic from Lewis as he finished:
They look in very good condition. No graining, rings or wear or blisters. He managed them perfectly. So, decent tyres, (at which point were probably healthier than the ones Bottas had) and multiple uncontested fuel saving laps meant he could turn up the wick on the last go.
The left front took a pounding on the Mercs. I noticed some marking on LH's by lap 4. That's when I had my Jordan moment and said that he'd have to come in before Bottas.
On the subject of Bottas, he locked up at least twice on his first stint. I still reckon that the early stop was forced on him.
Hamilton's tyre management has been a massive improvement on his early years with Merc.
Here’s the lap times vs Max, I’ve used Max as the both boxed under the safety car onto the same rubber.
Interestingly Hamilton (and all of the front runners) brought only one set of hards, zero were run in fp1/FP2.
You can see the times (generally) falling as fuel is used.
The tyre delta was approximately 0.7 from soft to medium then another 0.7 from medium to hard.
So even with new rubber your giving up 1.4 seconds.
Now, there is a (up to) 105kg fuel, but you can use no more than 100kg per hour.
It’s reported that the Mercedes are underfilling the car by 10kg less than Ferrari, as the race strategy demands, so you would expect them to be quicker early and mid race, however at the end, the fuel weight levels should even out, and the pace should be better matched at the end of the race.
(I think this is one of the reasons in the midfield that we are getting 4/5 cars bunched in 5/6/7/8/9 at the end of the race).
In round numbers a kilo of fuel is worth a 9/1000th per lap, so it’s a decent advantage to have.
Here’s a pace chart through the race showing the gap to Hamilton
I think it should be noted there are few low speed corners at Silverstone, so the traction/wheel spin you would have to deal with coming out of these on a heavily used set is minimal.
Here’s the team radio last ten laps
https://streamable.com/ie9is
Right here’s the lap..
https://www.youtube.com/embed/GAhS8tQ3XA8
Quicker than the Williams effort in Q1.
As smooth as silk.
Interestingly Hamilton (and all of the front runners) brought only one set of hards, zero were run in fp1/FP2.
You can see the times (generally) falling as fuel is used.
The tyre delta was approximately 0.7 from soft to medium then another 0.7 from medium to hard.
So even with new rubber your giving up 1.4 seconds.
Now, there is a (up to) 105kg fuel, but you can use no more than 100kg per hour.
It’s reported that the Mercedes are underfilling the car by 10kg less than Ferrari, as the race strategy demands, so you would expect them to be quicker early and mid race, however at the end, the fuel weight levels should even out, and the pace should be better matched at the end of the race.
(I think this is one of the reasons in the midfield that we are getting 4/5 cars bunched in 5/6/7/8/9 at the end of the race).
In round numbers a kilo of fuel is worth a 9/1000th per lap, so it’s a decent advantage to have.
Here’s a pace chart through the race showing the gap to Hamilton
I think it should be noted there are few low speed corners at Silverstone, so the traction/wheel spin you would have to deal with coming out of these on a heavily used set is minimal.
Here’s the team radio last ten laps
https://streamable.com/ie9is
Right here’s the lap..
https://www.youtube.com/embed/GAhS8tQ3XA8
Quicker than the Williams effort in Q1.
As smooth as silk.
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