Is there a test for "can i stop within my view?"

[WhoseGeneration]

Benbay001 said:

Jesus fking Christ i never wanted a witch hunt!!

I give up, if anyone has anything interesting or relevant to the subject topost then post it, and i will consider replying.
Otherwise grow up, and try not to judge someones driving ability when you have never even met them, yet alone observed their driving!

There is no test that, in isolation, can accommodate all potential situations.
I'm reminded of something that vonhosen once said, most overestimate the stopping distance at low speeds and underestimate the stopping distance at high speeds. I suspect, with reference to high speeds, he was talking about speeds much above NSL.
You and your car, if you want to find out, go out in varying weather conditions day and night and experiment.

[Benbay001]

WhoseGeneration said:

There is no test that, in isolation, can accommodate all potential situations.
I'm reminded of something that vonhosen once said, most overestimate the stopping distance at low speeds and underestimate the stopping distance at high speeds. I suspect, with reference to high speeds, he was talking about speeds much above NSL.
You and your car, if you want to find out, go out in varying weather conditions day and night and experiment.

Thats better, thank you.

[Centurion07]

Benbay001 said:

..try not to judge someones driving ability when you have never even met them, yet alone observed their driving!

By your own admission you can't tell what your stopping distance is at a given speed. Am I missing something?

[DocSteve]

Benbay001 said:

Jesus fking Christ i never wanted a witch hunt!!

I give up, if anyone has anything interesting or relevant to the subject topost then post it, and i will consider replying.
Otherwise grow up, and try not to judge someones driving ability when you have never even met them, yet alone observed their driving!

Quite agree OP. It is a perfectly valid question. Although it is something that is drilled into you during any kind of AD training, in practice it isn't that easy as you point out. The distance you can see to be clear needs to involve the whole carriageway - you might see a tall vehicle or horse above a verge or hedge line but a tree across a road or other similar low-lying hazard will be hard to spot. It's easy to become complacent with roads that you know well too.

However, I'm not sure if that's what you are asking. It sounds like you are asking how do you know the braking performance of your vehicle whilst cornering? The vehicle wants to carry straight on so you will require both steering ability and braking to remain in control and stop in time. Although a poster above claims that hard braking in the context of hard cornering will lead to loss of control, this is not the case - certainly not if your vehicle has a stability control system. I was amazed the first time I was powersliding in my old V10 M5 (at MIRA, I should add!). I was asked to deliberately over-egg it and then simply stand on the brakes and point the wheels where I wanted to go. The same was repeated several times by using too high an approach speed and understeering into the bend. On both occasions the DSC worked amazingly well and kept it pretty tightly in line. I was expecting us to spin out or go understeering off course even more. This test is repeatable in most cars with such systems. If you turn the DSC off, or have a hairy-chested TVR with no such thing, then a bit more care is required!

ETA - on a bend where you cannot see the exit clearly on approach, I wouldn't have thought most of the last paragraph should be that relevant in most situations, as your speed is going to be much more limited by available vision rather than grip!

Edited by DocSteve on Friday 31st August 00:29

[Benbay001]

DocSteve said:

Quite agree OP. It is a perfectly valid question. Although it is something that is drilled into you during any kind of AD training, in practice it isn't that easy as you point out. The distance you can see to be clear needs to involve the whole carriageway - you might see a tall vehicle or horse above a verge or hedge line but a tree across a road or other similar low-lying hazard will be hard to spot. It's easy to become complacent with roads that you know well too.

Centurion07 said:

By your own admission you can't tell what your stopping distance is at a given speed. Am I missing something?

If its that clear cut, wouldnt it have just been easier for you to tell me how far my stopping distances are?

[Centurion07]

Benbay001 said:

If its that clear cut, wouldnt it have just been easier for you to tell me how far my stopping distances are?

Not really because knowing the numbers isn't going to help you is it?

I couldn't tell you any braking distances off the top of my head for a given speed but I'm capable of judging whether or not I can stop in the space I can see to be clear. Even then you need to be aware that the distance you can see to be clear may become a lot shorter if some tool comes flying round the corner the other way expecting everyone else to get out the way.

To me, if you're having very definate doubts about whether you could stop or not, you're obviously cutting it a bit fine and therefore going too fast?

Maybe I've misunderstood the question?

[Benbay001]

Centurion07 said:

Not really because knowing the numbers isn't going to help you is it?

I couldn't tell you any braking distances off the top of my head for a given speed but I'm capable of judging whether or not I can stop in the space I can see to be clear. Even then you need to be aware that the distance you can see to be clear may become a lot shorter if some tool comes flying round the corner the other way expecting everyone else to get out the way.

To me, if you're having very definate doubts about whether you could stop or not, you're obviously cutting it a bit fine and therefore going too fast?

Maybe I've misunderstood the question?

Youre right, im a moron.

[Centurion07]

Benbay001 said:

Youre right, im a moron.

The first step is admitting it.

[thequietone]

I feel for the OP - simple question really, now I know why I dont bother posting on this forum.. lots of condiscending attitudes and 'it's this way or not at all' attitude.

The only way to find this out is to attand a closed circuit (dont even wat to call it a track day just in case I get flamed!!) and see how your car reacts to heavy braking whilst cornering at varying speeds. After being caught out in my younger days I save the hard(ish) cornering for well sighted bends or best of all - the track. Keep enjoying the driving!!

Out of interest what is the vehicle in question?

[richie slow]

thequietone said:

I feel for the OP - simple question really, now I know why I dont bother posting on this forum.. lots of condiscending attitudes and 'it's this way or not at all' attitude.

I only looked in on here out of curiosity. Like you, all I found was a lot of sanctimonious, condescending so-called driving experts who spout a lot of rubbish.

People who think they are gifted drivers generally aren't. They fail the attitude test.

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

I'm genuinely interested to know how this thread got so off-track. The thread title is a relevant and useful question, so it'd be a real shame if it just turns into a bad-tempered exchange of prejudices.

One of my replies was a bit arsey, but reading it through it all again surely there's some sound advice here, or at least grounds for a discussion. I'm certainly not getting this impression:

thequietone said:

lots of condiscending attitudes and 'it's this way or not at all' attitude.

Am I reading it wrong? Would those who aren't happy with it be prepared to explain more about why that is?

[Nigel_O]

Centurion07 said:

Am I the only one that thinks the OP is going too fast then?

If you don't KNOW you could stop in time, you're going too fast.

Not true - the OP is saying he doesn't know how quickly his car could stop - for all we know, he may be driving around more slowly than he needs to be, as he's being over-cautious and not (yet) confident enough in his car's behaviour to risk an accident if he speeds up.

If you go back to the first post, this is pretty much the OP's question

[10 Pence Short]

If the OP is worrying about trying to define the distance to such a precise limit, I would be concerned that the attitude appears to be to drive as close to the supposed safe limit as practicable. The attitude should always be the first thing to define, then the practicalities that work around it.

[Centurion07]

Nigel_O said:

Not true - the OP is saying he doesn't know how quickly his car could stop - for all we know, he may be driving around more slowly than he needs to be, as he's being over-cautious and not (yet) confident enough in his car's behaviour to risk an accident if he speeds up.

If you go back to the first post, this is pretty much the OP's question

That makes sense but was not how I read the OP. As 10PS mentioned above, it came across to me more as a 'I'm right on the limit and want to find out if I am or not' kind of post, which obviously isn't really ideal on a public road. I've not seen anything from the OP, since he threw his toys out the pram, to explain it any differently, hence MY comment of maybe I've misunderstood the OP.

[DocSteve]

Centurion07 said:

That makes sense but was not how I read the OP. As 10PS mentioned above, it came across to me more as a 'I'm right on the limit and want to find out if I am or not' kind of post, which obviously isn't really ideal on a public road. I've not seen anything from the OP, since he threw his toys out the pram, to explain it any differently, hence MY comment of maybe I've misunderstood the OP.

I think you have misunderstood him, personally. Plenty of drivers who would be regarded as family motorists etc (i.e. not "speed freaks") will have no idea about the limits of their vehicle's handling or how to take a corner fast on a racetrack or open bend, but will travel too fast around bends where they cannot stop in the distance they can see to be clear. Often, any passengers present will be equally unaware of the danger.

So, the OP has already demonstrated a higher level of thought process behind his driving than many and does not deserve some of the posts he has received in reply.

[Pugsey]

How about................get yourself along to your fave (preferably little used) twisty b road with a mate. Drop said mate (armed with 'phone) off half a mile or so away from suitable bends. Drive towards bends, mate confirms to you (you're hands free of course!) that no-one's up your chuff, you arrive at bends pick a point ahead you think you can stop by - then see if you can. Thinking about it there doesn't even have to be resticted visabilty (high hedges/whatever) does there - you could do it on an open moorland road and just pick your spot by imagining reduced sight lines.

Car mags use 'spotters' all the time for some of their more er, 'enthusiastic' runs for the camera.

Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 4th September 14:32

Edited by Pugsey on Wednesday 5th September 09:21

[jimmy the hat]

I think it could be read both ways to be perfectly honest. I'm not clear on the level of driving experience here but I think, necessarily, we're talking not loads.

I would strongly suggest that you use Sainsbury's car park* to find out what happens when you anchor up at 60mph on a hairpin if you've never done it and are not sure what's likely to happen. That's what it's there for, at least it was in my day.*

Depending on what you're driving and how the braking effort is biased, braking hard in a straight-line or just lifting off on a bend with the wrong camber can see you swapping ends in short order. Throw in a few potholes, kerbs (that's how you spell it, see), hedges, banks, cows, rivers and well, I think you get the picture.

Cheers, Jim

• By which, of course, I mean private road/airfield/race-track or at least make sure the supermarket's been closed for some hours.

[trashbat]

I asked a similar question: What's your stopping distance at 50mph?

Having figured that out (which frankly, I haven't yet) then the question you should be constantly assessing the answer to, in the style of the limit point, is what would happen if (a) a hazard blocked the unseen road, or (b) someone appeared doing the same speed in the opposite direction.

[Onehp]

No such thing as advanced driving courses where I live so I come and read here for usefull tips. And perhaps also give some.

I see your valid question, my answer would be - how do we learn in a safe manner where ANY limit lies irl traffic? Answer: start slow and increase step by step and back off when it gets too close to the limit for comfort well before you get in any real trouble. That's about where you want to be in any real situation anyhow, not at the very absolute limits of adhesion.

So to answer the specific question you had, I would make sure nobody is behind for a good distance on the straight before any bend and simply initiate a stop mid corner. To keep it random I just randomly decide to stop for any feature on the nearside of the bend that comes into view - that is how it (should!) work(s) in reality - looking out for something to brake for. As said, don't overdo the braking, instead start of gently to get a feel for it, then gently increase your incoming speed and braking force untill you start loosing confidence in the situation. You'll notice soon enough if you're anywhere near to coming to a stop in good time. Obviously you prefer to overshoot any reference you decided on rather then braking too hard and losing control.

Indeed, take my advice with caution, it is very much dependant on good judgement and I wouldn't just give it to anybody to go and 'experiment' on a actual road as some people don't have the sense to know when they're pushing their luck. On the other hand, those +90% of drivers randomly choosing there cornering speeds without any experience of hard braking mid corner isn't a pretty thought either.

So every now and then I do this excercise when there is space for it in order to 'recalibrate' my driving. To me it becomes obvious quickly if safe and good for comfort braking is possible within the confines of the at hand visibility mid corner. And indeed, many people take blind corners waaaay to fast, literally blindly relying that there is nothing behind that requires coming to a full stop.

cheers

[Crippo]

I'm not really sure tht driving should be broken down into a paint by numbers approach. Its really a matter of feel and judgement which comes through experience and skill.