Indicating on motorways advice needed
Discussion
charltjr said:
This is something I don't quite understand. The highway code is supposed to be the rules and guidelines for all drivers on UK roads, yet here we have advanced drivers criticising other drivers for over use of indicators by indicating left to move left on a motorway when all they are doing is adhering to the code.
I can understand drivers of emergency vehicles who are required to drive outside of the highway code following a different set of rules, but they have very specific requirements.
What makes indicating to change lane even when moving left on a multi-lane road a bad thing to do? Is it felt to add extra cognitive load? Why are other drivers trained to do it if it's a bad thing?
On a wider question, who decides which part of the highway code can be disregarded and which should be adhered to?
This isn't a jibe by the way, I genuinely don't understand the reasoning and would be interested in finding out.
New drivers are taught to do this because they generally do not have the skill to determine when they do not have toI can understand drivers of emergency vehicles who are required to drive outside of the highway code following a different set of rules, but they have very specific requirements.
What makes indicating to change lane even when moving left on a multi-lane road a bad thing to do? Is it felt to add extra cognitive load? Why are other drivers trained to do it if it's a bad thing?
On a wider question, who decides which part of the highway code can be disregarded and which should be adhered to?
This isn't a jibe by the way, I genuinely don't understand the reasoning and would be interested in finding out.
Advanced driving goes beyond the basic DVSA test and gets the driver to think more for themselves so they can apply more options
Ramona said:
I would argue that if there is any possibility of your left indicator providing useful information to any other road user, then there is no way that it could be deemed "unnecessary" and, ipso facto, cannot be "wrong".
Since , virtually all of the time ( just short of never ) such a signal won't benefit anyone , it is therefore both unnecessary and wrong .Remember , if a lane change is safe to execute , there is no need for a signal ; if it is not safe to execute then you shouldn't be attempting it and no amount of signalling will make an unsafe manoeuvre into a safe one .
Since last looking at this forum I have driven from Glasgow to Dundee and back , then home - at all times my journeys were uneventful , stress levels remained low , I spent most of my DC and motorway mileage in the near side lane , overtook many vehicles and was probably overtaken by many more since I was in no particular hurry and doubt that I exceeded 60 mph at any time . While signals were required at junctions and roundabouts , and indeed were given in a timely and unambiguous fashion , only one signal for a lane change was deemed necessary - this was when I was proceeding up Dundee's Kingsway ( a DCW with 50mph limit ) in the left lane , an Artic ahead of me pulled out to reveal a slow moving tractor ahead of him ; I was either going to have to slow or overtake , rear observation picked up a car maybe a hundred metres behind and gaining , so I trafficated right to give early warning of my lane change , but had completed the overtake before he caught up - so you see I do signal to change if I deem it necessary , but I can't remember the last time I had to - hence - 'almost never' .
On the other side of the coin , on my return journey there was severe congestion in places , I held back leaving plenty of space to react , resigning myself to slow progress and just kept to lane one ; however , so many idiots , in indecisiveness flitted between lanes , blindly throwing indicators on then having to abort when nearly hitting or being hit by others , causing others to brake and sometimes repeatedly changing lanes back and forth to no advantage ; worst was at a point where there was an RTC on the other side , and a couple of near misses caused by rubbernecking and compression waves of braking - in fact I barely noticed the RTC , so busy was I watching those in proximity to me and giving them wide berths .
In short , the measure of competent driving is anything but the number of signals given .
Nigel Worc's said:
Pontoneer said:
Nigel Worc's said:
Nothing about driving is written in stone, thus there will never be a correct answer to questions like this, just peoples preferences .
Hence I said 'almost never' in my original response on this subject . Just the same , I don't go around finding myself in conflict with other drivers , I make allowances for others , back off at times to make space for others , and make progress when safe to do so .
Thanks R0G but that doesn't really answer my question, why is it a bad thing to indicate when changing lane on the motorway? What harm or risk does it entail assuming everything else is equal and the driver has planned the manouver properly so as not to come into conflict with other road users?
charltjr said:
What makes indicating to change lane even when moving left on a multi-lane road a bad thing to do? Is it felt to add extra cognitive load? Why are other drivers trained to do it if it's a bad thing?
Far from adding extra cognitive load, the point is that habitual indicating can be done with no cognitive load whatsoever and by the kind of people who don't concentrate.By omitting the signal when it's unnecessary you are forcing yourself to be aware of what's around you. If you find yourself giving a signal when there was nobody around to signal to then you know you aren't concentrating and need to raise your game.
Drivers aren't trained to signal when moving left after an overtake unless you interpret one particular part of the HC that way. It means consider a signal, just as Mirror Signal Manoeuvre means look in the mirror, signal IF REQUIRED, manoeuvre IF SAFE.
charltjr said:
Thanks R0G but that doesn't really answer my question, why is it a bad thing to indicate when changing lane on the motorway? What harm or risk does it entail assuming everything else is equal and the driver has planned the manouver properly so as not to come into conflict with other road users?
It is not bad just un-necessary Would a driver toot the horn to warn other road users they are changing lane ? - no because it is again un-necessary but it could be argued that others might be more aware of them if they did !
Un-thinking indication is what advanced driving is trying to eliminate as many drivers simply do it out of habit
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
JM said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
R0G said:
I indicate only when it would be useful to another road user
That of course assumes you've identified every single user who finds it useful. Why not indicate every time? It costs nothing and can do no harm?As I say, why not, it doesn't cost, take any effort, and can't be a negative?
I am not a lover of indicating left after an overtake on any road, motorways included. My reasoning is that if I am being overtaken, the other vehicle is traveling faster than I am and I do not expect it to remain on the opposite side of the road (if on a two lane road), or in lanes two/three (if on a M-way, or dual carriageway) for ever. I am often overtaken by people near to junctions and when they indicate left my first thought is that they wish to take that junction. If that is the case, then they are probably about to have some hard braking, and that will certainly cause me a few problems.
If I am doing the overtaking, then I am not going to move left if such an action were to cause an alteration in someone else's course, or speed, so there is no need for an indicator. By the same token, I do not indicate right to start an overtake.
If I am doing the overtaking, then I am not going to move left if such an action were to cause an alteration in someone else's course, or speed, so there is no need for an indicator. By the same token, I do not indicate right to start an overtake.
Dr Jekyll said:
charltjr said:
What makes indicating to change lane even when moving left on a multi-lane road a bad thing to do? Is it felt to add extra cognitive load? Why are other drivers trained to do it if it's a bad thing?
Far from adding extra cognitive load, the point is that habitual indicating can be done with no cognitive load whatsoever and by the kind of people who don't concentrate.By omitting the signal when it's unnecessary you are forcing yourself to be aware of what's around you. If you find yourself giving a signal when there was nobody around to signal to then you know you aren't concentrating and need to raise your game.
Drivers aren't trained to signal when moving left after an overtake unless you interpret one particular part of the HC that way. It means consider a signal, just as Mirror Signal Manoeuvre means look in the mirror, signal IF REQUIRED, manoeuvre IF SAFE.
eg
What you are suggesting has 3 cognitive loads in the decision to give it.
What's around?
Will it mislead?
Will it benefit?
Where as their choice may just have 2 cognitive loads in the decision to give it.
What's around?
Will it mislead?
In my personal experience a not inconsiderable number of drivers miss giving a signal when it would benefit by trying not to signal when it wouldn't benefit, where if they'd just given one because it wouldn't mislead they wouldn't have failed to give it where it would benefit.
What harm is there in knowing what's around you & basing your decision only on whether it mislead or not?
As far as I'm concerned there is no harm done in giving a signal that doesn't mislead, but far more in not giving a signal when it would have benefited by attempting to not signal unless it benefits & missing giving it.
xpc316e said:
I am not a lover of indicating left after an overtake on any road, motorways included. My reasoning is that if I am being overtaken, the other vehicle is traveling faster than I am and I do not expect it to remain on the opposite side of the road (if on a two lane road), or in lanes two/three (if on a M-way, or dual carriageway) for ever. I am often overtaken by people near to junctions and when they indicate left my first thought is that they wish to take that junction. If that is the case, then they are probably about to have some hard braking, and that will certainly cause me a few problems.
If I am doing the overtaking, then I am not going to move left if such an action were to cause an alteration in someone else's course, or speed, so there is no need for an indicator. By the same token, I do not indicate right to start an overtake.
In response to this and other similar posts:If I am doing the overtaking, then I am not going to move left if such an action were to cause an alteration in someone else's course, or speed, so there is no need for an indicator. By the same token, I do not indicate right to start an overtake.
1) You may have checked that you're not affecting the speed or course of other road users, but what about considering what they might be planning, rather than just what they're doing? You can't see and act on plans, unless you're psychic
For example, that guy a long way behind you in lane 2 who's speed or course you won't influence by pulling out: what if he wants to get into lane 1 ready to leave the Motorway/DC and his plan is thus: if you pull out then he'll back off and get into L1 early (because by the time you finish your overtake you'll be in his way), but if you don't pull out, then he'll overtake the slower car in front of you before getting into L1 and coming off. Your indicator allows him to make this decision early enough to back off the throttle and calmly move to lane 1 early, rather than braking when he realises what you're doing.2) How do you know your observation is perfect? There might be a motorbike sat in your blind spot, or perhaps there's a car in front of the one you want to overtake that you haven't seen yet, and the guy in front of you is about to move out to overtake it - he'd need to know if you were coming out or not. Or maybe the guy behind you isn't driving at a constant speed, but actually accelerating? Was your mirror check good enough to know that? What if he's only just started accelerating?..
There you have multiple reasons why you should indicate in this situation, and I bet there are loads more that I haven't thought of. I'm aware that there are things I haven't thought of, which is why I always indicate - to cover al bases and add a layer of safety. I've said it before on this forum and I'll say it again: Unless you really are on a wide open road in the middle of nowhere, the only reason for not indicating is because you're a bad driver - end of story.
All of this 'advanced' driving theory is all well and good, but usually it either fails to take into account every possible circumstance, or it assumes that your observation before your indicating decision is perfect. If you want to demonstrate 'superior' ability with regard to indicating, i.e. as a means of communication rather than a habit, there are plenty of opportunities to do it with your timing, rather than irritating other road users.
I see traffic lights (except red) as invitations to go, not automatic rights being granted. I see headlight flashes as invitations to make the first move, not automatic safe passage. I see indicators on other vehicles as "I've bothered to indicate and I'm pulling out and instantly halving your safe following distance. You will slow down!"
Much of this discussion demonstrates how confused most motorists are about signals. Mandatory retesting for every driver every four years and a separate section of driving test and license for motorway driving before being permitted to drive on one whilst not under instruction. Thems the rules!
Much of this discussion demonstrates how confused most motorists are about signals. Mandatory retesting for every driver every four years and a separate section of driving test and license for motorway driving before being permitted to drive on one whilst not under instruction. Thems the rules!
marked1 said:
I personally indicate when ever changing lanes. Just lazy not doing so.
I take a different view. Indicating when there's someone who might make use of the signal to me means my observation and anticipation are working. Not indicating a) preserves precious photons and b) saves my little finger a bit of energy, but I've expended more mental energy thinking about whether to indicate or not.WD39 said:
Put simply, it is good driving practice to indicate at all times when you change direction, or change lanes or carry out any manoevre that means moving from the position that you are currently in.
Put simply - it isn't .It is good practice to give signals where they would be of benefit to other road users ( which is a lot of the time , but not always ) and good practice to always think about them , since it heightens your awareness of others , but it is bad practice to always signal robotically since that is the path to not looking properly and falling to adapt to different situations .
rb5er said:
I agree, just indicate if you are changing lane. Its not hard and although another poster seems to struggle with this its easy to keep driving smoothly.
If you 'just indicate' , without taking the trouble to look properly first and think about it , therein lies the path to collisions .It really isn't hard to take observation , apply some thought , then act as appropriate - that makes for a smooth and uneventful drive ; I related in an earlier post about the idiots I saw on my way back from Dundee the other week who saw an obstruction ahead , just threw on signals and blundered into conflict with other vehicles , with one or other then having to take evasive action : these were people who 'just indicate' and a prime example of why it is such a bad habit .
RobM77 said:
In response to this and other similar posts:
1) You may have checked that you're not affecting the speed or course of other road users, but what about considering what they might be planning, rather than just what they're doing? You can't see and act on plans, unless you're psychic For example, that guy a long way behind you in lane 2 who's speed or course you won't influence by pulling out: what if he wants to get into lane 1 ready to leave the Motorway/DC and his plan is thus: if you pull out then he'll back off and get into L1 early (because by the time you finish your overtake you'll be in his way), but if you don't pull out, then he'll overtake the slower car in front of you before getting into L1 and coming off. Your indicator allows him to make this decision early enough to back off the throttle and calmly move to lane 1 early, rather than braking when he realises what you're doing.
2) How do you know your observation is perfect? There might be a motorbike sat in your blind spot, or perhaps there's a car in front of the one you want to overtake that you haven't seen yet, and the guy in front of you is about to move out to overtake it - he'd need to know if you were coming out or not. Or maybe the guy behind you isn't driving at a constant speed, but actually accelerating? Was your mirror check good enough to know that? What if he's only just started accelerating?..
There you have multiple reasons why you should indicate in this situation, and I bet there are loads more that I haven't thought of. I'm aware that there are things I haven't thought of, which is why I always indicate - to cover al bases and add a layer of safety. I've said it before on this forum and I'll say it again: Unless you really are on a wide open road in the middle of nowhere, the only reason for not indicating is because you're a bad driver - end of story.
All of this 'advanced' driving theory is all well and good, but usually it either fails to take into account every possible circumstance, or it assumes that your observation before your indicating decision is perfect. If you want to demonstrate 'superior' ability with regard to indicating, i.e. as a means of communication rather than a habit, there are plenty of opportunities to do it with your timing, rather than irritating other road users.
Re point 1 , it is very often the case that you have weighed up another driver by observing the manner of his driving over a short or long period of time , and it is in many cases quite easy to predict what other drivers are going to do . If the guy really is a long way behind in lane 2 and you won't influence his speed or course then there really is no need to signal for him ; the other scenarios you describe contradict that since then you WOULD be influencing his speed or course , and in such an instance , for myself , I would remain where I was rather than change lane - as I stated previously , if my planned manoeuvre won't affect anyone else then no need to signal ; if it will ( however that may manifest ) then the manoeuvre isn't on and I won't do it - simple really .1) You may have checked that you're not affecting the speed or course of other road users, but what about considering what they might be planning, rather than just what they're doing? You can't see and act on plans, unless you're psychic
For example, that guy a long way behind you in lane 2 who's speed or course you won't influence by pulling out: what if he wants to get into lane 1 ready to leave the Motorway/DC and his plan is thus: if you pull out then he'll back off and get into L1 early (because by the time you finish your overtake you'll be in his way), but if you don't pull out, then he'll overtake the slower car in front of you before getting into L1 and coming off. Your indicator allows him to make this decision early enough to back off the throttle and calmly move to lane 1 early, rather than braking when he realises what you're doing.2) How do you know your observation is perfect? There might be a motorbike sat in your blind spot, or perhaps there's a car in front of the one you want to overtake that you haven't seen yet, and the guy in front of you is about to move out to overtake it - he'd need to know if you were coming out or not. Or maybe the guy behind you isn't driving at a constant speed, but actually accelerating? Was your mirror check good enough to know that? What if he's only just started accelerating?..
There you have multiple reasons why you should indicate in this situation, and I bet there are loads more that I haven't thought of. I'm aware that there are things I haven't thought of, which is why I always indicate - to cover al bases and add a layer of safety. I've said it before on this forum and I'll say it again: Unless you really are on a wide open road in the middle of nowhere, the only reason for not indicating is because you're a bad driver - end of story.
All of this 'advanced' driving theory is all well and good, but usually it either fails to take into account every possible circumstance, or it assumes that your observation before your indicating decision is perfect. If you want to demonstrate 'superior' ability with regard to indicating, i.e. as a means of communication rather than a habit, there are plenty of opportunities to do it with your timing, rather than irritating other road users.
Re point 2 , good observation is paramount , before doing anything multiple mirror checks , shoulder checks and LISTENING checks - I've yet to hear a silent motorbike and on my drive in this morning I heard every one of them before I saw them in the motorway traffic - these weren't just the big 'ton up' beasts , but also mild mannered scooters and the like not noted for being particularly noisy ; Diesel engined vehicles also make themselves conspicuous coming from behind because of the noise they make .
Overtaking - very few people seem to have been trained to do it properly - hence there is a whole chapter in Roadcraft devoted to the subject - as with so much else , it comes back to observation , observation , observation , and planning . Before embarking on an overtake you need to answer several questions - the first and foremost being 'Is it worthwhile ?' - why overtake if you are going to be turning off a short distance ahead . or just getting one place up the queue on a busy road and no discernible advantage ? Secondly , 'will it be safe ?' again , no point contemplating it if you might endanger yourself or others . Now to observation : an overtake needs a starting point and a finishing point ; there's no point blindly passing that bus/truck/tractor in front unless you know there's a safe 'landing zone' ahead of it - so take observation behind ( you don't want to blunder out if you yourself are about to be overtaken ) get the views past alone the offside and the nearside ( use bends in the road for this , or position left and right , with appropriate mirror checks first , to get these views ) ; if , and only if , you're convinced it is safe , then take the most appropriate and responsive gear for the overtake and , again with rear observation ( if necessary providing signals to following traffic ) move out onto a parallel course with the vehicle to be overtaken ( at this point you now have a full view past but not yet committed to the overtake - if you now see something that was previously hidden ( like the hidden car in front as in your example ) , you can just drop back in behind the vehicle you were planning to overtake , but if the overtake is on , then you consider a signal to warn the vehicle about to be overtaken ( horn or headlamp flash ) then , and only then , you apply acceleration whilst travelling in a straight line . That sounds very 'wordy' , but with proper training and application of 'the system' it is actually very easy , is the only truly safe way to do it , and it addresses every concern in your hypothetical situation .
Advanced driving theory really is well and good ; moreover , when properly applied and put into practice it really does make your drive safer . The instructors at college used to say that if everyone drove to the system it would be impossible to have accidents ; my own take is that it would be ALMOST impossible , because you still cannot legislate for events that are truly 'accidents' in the proper sense of the word : tyre blow outs , people taking heart attacks at the wheel , trees falling down on the road ( all of which I have attended the crashes resulting from ) , or even people hitting patches of ice or just overcooking things on bends - strange and unpredictable stuff sometimes happens on the roads ( just last night on my way home , I came round a bend on the A736 near Lugton and was confronted by a herd of cows being driven towards me down an A road ! I certainly wasn't expecting that , but was able to stop without incident until the cattle had waddled past on both sides of my car ! ) .
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