Advanced Driving confuses normal motorists!!

Advanced Driving confuses normal motorists!!

Author
Discussion

waremark

3,241 posts

212 months

Tuesday 31st January 2017
quotequote all
Technomad said:
My last throw with the car side of the IAM was to have an introductory drive for their Masters course with one of the nominated mentors. We were out for about two hours and got out of 30/40 limits for a total of about two miles, which didn't exactly demonstrate much. In the debrief however, I got the full criticism for not using the IAM shuffle when steering at all times: as i take the view that you have a portfolio of steering techniques to use as the situation demands (and can be justified), I wasn't having that - I'd thought that had gone out years ago. Then we got on to those two miles when we were in an NSL: he firstly had a go at me for double-declutching and changing gear to keep revs matched to conditions. In fact that's what he was complaining about - by doing so I wasn't apparently following The System. That didn't go well, and his next pass sealed the debate: I'd committed the heinous sin of BGOL and braking to the apex (quite deliberately, I may add) on entry to a bend. I suggested that, as I was driving a car with a 60% rear bias in static weight distribution, light trail braking was a well known technique for killing turn-in understeer and - at 'Masters' level, shouldn't we be using techniques that demonstrate an awareness of both external conditions and the characteristics of the vehicle? His only response to that was a slightly sulky, "We don't teach that sort of thing at the IAM". At which point I was out of there.
You have to recognise what IAM Masters is looking for - the best execution of a legal drive on traditional Roadcraft principles. It is going to be assessed by police drivers, and they have not been trained to extract maximum performance from old style 911's. If that's not the assessment you want don't do it. Personally, I enjoyed delivering what was being looked for.

If you had come to me for Masters mentoring we would have explored our mutual expectations before we got near a car.

As an Observer since before most of you were born !!, the changes I have seen in the IAM have been towards greater flexibility. For example, there is now much more flexibility in relation to steering techniques. I have always found my local Rospa examiners pretty sensible.

Edited by waremark on Wednesday 1st February 17:12

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

260 months

Wednesday 1st February 2017
quotequote all
waremark said:
Technomad said:
My last throw with the car side of the IAM was to have an introductory drive for their Masters course with one of the nominated mentors. We were out for about two hours and got out of 30/40 limits for a total of about two miles, which didn't exactly demonstrate much. In the debrief however, I got the full criticism for not using the IAM shuffle when steering at all times: as i take the view that you have a portfolio of steering techniques to use as the situation demands (and can be justified), I wasn't having that - I'd thought that had gone out years ago. Then we got on to those two miles when we were in an NSL: he firstly had a go at me for double-declutching and changing gear to keep revs matched to conditions. In fact that's what he was complaining about - by doing so I wasn't apparently following The System. That didn't go well, and his next pass sealed the debate: I'd committed the heinous sin of BGOL and braking to the apex (quite deliberately, I may add) on entry to a bend. I suggested that, as I was driving a car with a 60% rear bias in static weight distribution, light trail braking was a well known technique for killing turn-in understeer and - at 'Masters' level, shouldn't we be using techniques that demonstrate an awareness of both external conditions and the characteristics of the vehicle? His only response to that was a slightly sulky, "We don't teach that sort of thing at the IAM". At which point I was out of there.
You have to recognise what IAM Masters is looking for - the best execution of a legal drive on traditional Roadcraft principles. It is going to be assessed by police drivers, and they have not been trained to extract maximum performance from old style 911'sheets. If that's not the assessment you want don't do it. Personally, I enjoyed delivering what was being looked for.

If you had come to me for Masters mentoring we would have explored our mutual expectations before we got near a car.

As an Observer since before most of you were born !!, the changes I have seen in the IAM have been towards greater flexibility. For example, there is now much more flexibility in relation to steering techniques. I have always found my local Rospa examiners pretty sensible.
+1

Travelling into a bend at such a speed that you need to trail brake to restrain understeer is hardly an advanced technique for the public road.

Rick101

6,959 posts

149 months

Wednesday 1st February 2017
quotequote all
I am always amazed at how many enthusiasts want to take the fun out of driving.

I was very keen on AD a few years back but have gradually become disheartened with it. I have met a few folk who actually enjoy driving but the majority are the typical grey haired old men who do nothing buy grumble about not following the proper procedures or exceeding a speed limit by 2mph.

I am in quite a few car clubs and to be honest, I wouldn't recommend it. It can be quite embarrassing.

Shame really, learnt some really interesting stuff but have been put off it by the closed minded and anti fun attitudes.

NuddyRap

218 posts

102 months

Wednesday 1st February 2017
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
+1

Travelling into a bend at such a speed that you need to trail brake to restrain understeer is hardly an advanced technique for the public road.
It's not about needing to do that, but rather wanting to do it for the sake of smoothness and vehicle stability, so I disagree. You don't need to be driving like you're trying to outrun a missile to find benefit in the application of techniques which have a racing origin.



Besides, unless you're caressing the brake with your left foot on exit to kill FWD wheelspin or understeer, you're not really pushing coffee



getmecoat

waremark

3,241 posts

212 months

Wednesday 1st February 2017
quotequote all
NuddyRap said:
Dr Jekyll said:
+1

Travelling into a bend at such a speed u need to trail brake to restrain understeer is hardly an advanced technique for the public road.
It's not about needing to do that, but rather wanting to do it for the sake of smoothness and vehicle stability, so I disagree. You don't need to be driving like you're trying to outrun a missile to find benefit in the application of techniques which have a racing origin.
I have nothing against it as a technique, and nor against H & T which I use on the road. However, I wouldn't use either for an IAM or Rospa test, because I know the Examiner is looking for a particular driving style which does not include those techniques. As I said before, in slightly different words, if you don't want to play by the rules don't take part in the game.

Rick101

6,959 posts

149 months

Wednesday 1st February 2017
quotequote all
I remember my L test. I had to learn to pass a test and THEN I would learn to drive.

I don't see IAM much differently.

Saying that the L test has realised there are bigger things to think about than Push Pull steering...

watchnut

1,161 posts

128 months

Wednesday 1st February 2017
quotequote all
You don't need to "push/pull" for the driving test.....you just need to keep "full" control of the steering wheel, for a novice driver the Push/pull method is more than likely the best way to maintain control.

When i did my ROSPA test not long ago the examiner was not too fussed about 1 or 2 miles an hour over the speed limits either, it was all about IPSGA......I enjoyed the drive and got a Gold......

Modern teaching/coaching for the modern driving test does not just teach to pass a test, a decent instructor does his best to prepare all for post test driving too. But when i suggest doing an extra Rual drive at high speeds, and Motorway lessons post test just about 98%+ are not interested.......you can't lead a horse to water etc....

martine

67 posts

210 months

Sunday 12th February 2017
quotequote all
Technomad said:
...A little more on IAM and RoSPA: I've been an IAM Observer for 16 years and RoSPA Gold for nearly as long (having passed my IAM test in 1987 (car) and 1999 (bike). I've been a bike instructor on and off since the late 1970s. I have now however given up on both IAM and RoSPA because of their dumbing down of their training - both moving to a procedural checkbox approach rather than teaching principle and judgement alongside the necessary awareness of statute. The only training I've had in the last few years that actually did me any good were with Rapid Training (bike) and HPC (car). Both of which I will now use more, subject only to the fact that they're a long, long way from me.

My last throw with the car side of the IAM was to have an introductory drive for their Masters course with one of the nominated mentors. We were out for about two hours and got out of 30/40 limits for a total of about two miles, which didn't exactly demonstrate much. In the debrief however, I got the full criticism for not using the IAM shuffle when steering at all times: as i take the view that you have a portfolio of steering techniques to use as the situation demands (and can be justified), I wasn't having that - I'd thought that had gone out years ago. Then we got on to those two miles when we were in an NSL: he firstly had a go at me for double-declutching and changing gear to keep revs matched to conditions. In fact that's what he was complaining about - by doing so I wasn't apparently following The System. That didn't go well, and his next pass sealed the debate: I'd committed the heinous sin of BGOL and braking to the apex (quite deliberately, I may add) on entry to a bend. I suggested that, as I was driving a car with a 60% rear bias in static weight distribution, light trail braking was a well known technique for killing turn-in understeer and - at 'Masters' level, shouldn't we be using techniques that demonstrate an awareness of both external conditions and the characteristics of the vehicle? His only response to that was a slightly sulky, "We don't teach that sort of thing at the IAM". At which point I was out of there.
Technomad - I think your dissatisfaction with your Masters taster has more to do with your mentor than the IAM - he sounds like a boring old fart who is outdated in what is expected/acceptable at Masters level. EG. I used a mixture of pull-push and fixed-grip steering on my Masters and it wasn't commented on at all...strangely I passed with distinction.

One of the problems with the IAM (and ROSPA I suspect) is there are a wide range of standards and expertise at volunteer Observer level. The IAM is trying to make the playing field more level with the IMI accreditation - coming to a head at the end of this year.

martine

67 posts

210 months

Sunday 12th February 2017
quotequote all
Rick101 said:
I have cancelled my IAM membership this year as I simply don't feel I get anything meaningful from it. The magazine goes straight in the bin nowadays. The 'special' insurance is a joke. I did get a response when cancelling along the lines of how I should continue, so others could have the benefit I had. I'm pretty sure that's what thy pay £150 or so for so I couldn't agree.
It seems to me that subscription money goes towards to support the political side of IAM and to be honest I often question the direction they are going in.

I will continue membership with my local group at the cost of £6 as they usually put on a talk each month and I try and go along to two or three a year.

I'm in two minds about ROSPA. Again, I haven't learnt anything but the group do seem to be trying to do more recently so I may stick out another year.
Unfortunately you can't be a group member and not be a national IAM member - it's in the group affiliation rules...sorry to say. I think the same applies to being a scout!

Treat the national membership fee as a donation to help others get on the advanced journey. The magazine is a lot better of late by the way.