Making Turns Smoothly
Discussion
Hi there, first time posting here!
I've been driving now for just over two years. I currently drive a 2004 BMW 3 series 316TI Compact manual. I'm fairly confident in my driving, however as i drive more and more I feel like i want to improve my driving by being able to drive smoother and in a controlled manner rather than just flooring the throttle all the time.
My question to you more experienced drivers out there is this. How do I / what should I be doing when i need to reduce my speed significantly then make a slow turn smoothly, and then accelerate out of the turn?
I'm aware of rev matching and its something I'm fairly good at, however heel and toe downshifting is not something I can currently do in my car as the throttle pedal is not in a good position in relation to my break pedal so I find it very difficult to perform.
I do downshift from 5th/4th gear into 3rd to make some turns, however my main issue is having to reduce my speed from around 60-50 MPH then shift into 2nd year to make a turn which requires me to slow down a lot, while trying to this smoothly. I find rev match downshifting to be quite difficult to do when going into second gear while having to reduce my speed from 60/50 MPH to around 10-15 MPH. I find I either make the turn to fast and not controlling the car well, or i slow down way before the turn and rev'ing the engine into second gear for too long before the turn.
One last thing to add, does downshifting cause any clutch or transmission wear? I've read many views this, with some people saying that I should break instead of downshift rev matching as it costs a lot less to change break pads than having to change a gear box or clutch?
Any help would be much appreciated as i feel this particular driving issue is holding back my driving somewhat.
I've been driving now for just over two years. I currently drive a 2004 BMW 3 series 316TI Compact manual. I'm fairly confident in my driving, however as i drive more and more I feel like i want to improve my driving by being able to drive smoother and in a controlled manner rather than just flooring the throttle all the time.
My question to you more experienced drivers out there is this. How do I / what should I be doing when i need to reduce my speed significantly then make a slow turn smoothly, and then accelerate out of the turn?
I'm aware of rev matching and its something I'm fairly good at, however heel and toe downshifting is not something I can currently do in my car as the throttle pedal is not in a good position in relation to my break pedal so I find it very difficult to perform.
I do downshift from 5th/4th gear into 3rd to make some turns, however my main issue is having to reduce my speed from around 60-50 MPH then shift into 2nd year to make a turn which requires me to slow down a lot, while trying to this smoothly. I find rev match downshifting to be quite difficult to do when going into second gear while having to reduce my speed from 60/50 MPH to around 10-15 MPH. I find I either make the turn to fast and not controlling the car well, or i slow down way before the turn and rev'ing the engine into second gear for too long before the turn.
One last thing to add, does downshifting cause any clutch or transmission wear? I've read many views this, with some people saying that I should break instead of downshift rev matching as it costs a lot less to change break pads than having to change a gear box or clutch?
Any help would be much appreciated as i feel this particular driving issue is holding back my driving somewhat.
Timing of when to do things and smoothly operating controls is probably going to give you more benefit than trying to heel and toe at the moment.
I'd brake for the corner, but don't see it as a full on/full off thing, but ramp up the pressure fairly early, then ease off gently as you approach the end of the braking phase, change gear to avoid engine stalling (i.e. dont stay in 6th gear if you slow to 20mph) or when your speed is low enough for your target gear and go straight to it. Feed the clutch out not dump it out.
Using the gearbox to slow down isn't great, i.e. as you approach a corner, drop it down a few gears then let the clutch out to cause engine braking, the higher the revs need to be the speed the more the engine braking, that's not a good use of the clutch. Slowing first reduces the amount of engine braking (i.e. Dropping into 2nd gear when doing 50 may result in 5k revs, doing it and 25mph 2.5k revs which is more like where you need to be).
But I'd start with simple stuff, just think of smooth on and off, especially the off as that's the one people forget, the brake and accelerator. Next time you stop the car try to avoid the little bounce back from the brake as an idea of smooth off.
I'd brake for the corner, but don't see it as a full on/full off thing, but ramp up the pressure fairly early, then ease off gently as you approach the end of the braking phase, change gear to avoid engine stalling (i.e. dont stay in 6th gear if you slow to 20mph) or when your speed is low enough for your target gear and go straight to it. Feed the clutch out not dump it out.
Using the gearbox to slow down isn't great, i.e. as you approach a corner, drop it down a few gears then let the clutch out to cause engine braking, the higher the revs need to be the speed the more the engine braking, that's not a good use of the clutch. Slowing first reduces the amount of engine braking (i.e. Dropping into 2nd gear when doing 50 may result in 5k revs, doing it and 25mph 2.5k revs which is more like where you need to be).
But I'd start with simple stuff, just think of smooth on and off, especially the off as that's the one people forget, the brake and accelerator. Next time you stop the car try to avoid the little bounce back from the brake as an idea of smooth off.
I'm not sure if I've explained myself well in the original post, so i'll write out a particular turn i always take when driving home from work to give you an idea of what i'm experiencing.
So i'm driving down a fairly long, straight road. The speed limit is 60 MPH so i'm usually do 50-60 MPH here. Eventually i need to make a turn which i think requires me to go into second gear to make it at a safe and controlled speed while also giving me the power needed to accelerate after the turn.
The issues i'm finding are these:
I know i can slowly reduce my speed approaching the turn and go into third gear fairly easily, but i find i lack the power needed to accelerate after i make the turn.
If i decide to reduce my speed from 50-60 MPH down to around 10-15 MPH and select second gear, i find the gear change still doesn't shift down into second smoothly if i don't downshift rev match - unless i've dropped the engine rev's almost to idle. This doesn't help me achieve the smoothness I want.
Maybe my way of thinking is also affecting my driving somewhat. I do tend to feel a lot of pressure from drivers who are behind me. Not all the time but drivers who clearly do not agree with my driving pace, who want to go faster and therefore "pressure" me from behind my car. I can sense this and it makes me tense somewhat. When I'm in this situation it tends to lead me to break later into a turn and make that turn faster as i'm concerned about the person driving behind me. Am i being stupid or do others also experience this? It's something i really want to stop doing/feeling because it has a negative affect on my driving.
So i'm driving down a fairly long, straight road. The speed limit is 60 MPH so i'm usually do 50-60 MPH here. Eventually i need to make a turn which i think requires me to go into second gear to make it at a safe and controlled speed while also giving me the power needed to accelerate after the turn.
The issues i'm finding are these:
I know i can slowly reduce my speed approaching the turn and go into third gear fairly easily, but i find i lack the power needed to accelerate after i make the turn.
If i decide to reduce my speed from 50-60 MPH down to around 10-15 MPH and select second gear, i find the gear change still doesn't shift down into second smoothly if i don't downshift rev match - unless i've dropped the engine rev's almost to idle. This doesn't help me achieve the smoothness I want.
Maybe my way of thinking is also affecting my driving somewhat. I do tend to feel a lot of pressure from drivers who are behind me. Not all the time but drivers who clearly do not agree with my driving pace, who want to go faster and therefore "pressure" me from behind my car. I can sense this and it makes me tense somewhat. When I'm in this situation it tends to lead me to break later into a turn and make that turn faster as i'm concerned about the person driving behind me. Am i being stupid or do others also experience this? It's something i really want to stop doing/feeling because it has a negative affect on my driving.
Edited by Konic on Tuesday 4th July 08:08
10-15mph is pretty slow for any corner - I don't know it so it may be correct, but maybe that's your issue, or rather the cars behind that you feel are pressurising you. Never drive faster than you feel safe but equally driving too slowly isn't good either if it's not warranted.
If you're trying to think of too many things like heel and toe you're making life difficult for yourself. Think about how much speed is safe to carry through the bend. If it's a genuinely really slow bend, then everybody will get closer as you slow down, as an extreme example watch formula 1 and see how close they get in corners only to spread out again on the straight.
If you're trying to think of too many things like heel and toe you're making life difficult for yourself. Think about how much speed is safe to carry through the bend. If it's a genuinely really slow bend, then everybody will get closer as you slow down, as an extreme example watch formula 1 and see how close they get in corners only to spread out again on the straight.
The turn itself is a 90 degree bend. Once i make the turn it's up hill from there, so i personally feel the speed and gear i mentioned is required to turn in and then exit.
Apart from the pressure of other drivers, the most important thing for me is that it just doesn't feel right. The way i'm taking steep turns is not as controlled and smooth as i want them to be.
If im doing some speed and i know i need to take a turn in second gear, i tend to rev match downshift into third, then again into second so i have the power to accelerate once i made the turn.
Would simply braking, slowing down and then shifting into a lower gear be a better option in terms of increasing clutch and gearbox life ( however i dont think this would be a smoother downshift then rev matching ) than rev match downshifting when i need to slow down and take a turn in a lower gear?
Or am i just over thinking too much here? At the end of the day i want to control my car and be able to drive well, that's the goal.
Apart from the pressure of other drivers, the most important thing for me is that it just doesn't feel right. The way i'm taking steep turns is not as controlled and smooth as i want them to be.
If im doing some speed and i know i need to take a turn in second gear, i tend to rev match downshift into third, then again into second so i have the power to accelerate once i made the turn.
Would simply braking, slowing down and then shifting into a lower gear be a better option in terms of increasing clutch and gearbox life ( however i dont think this would be a smoother downshift then rev matching ) than rev match downshifting when i need to slow down and take a turn in a lower gear?
Or am i just over thinking too much here? At the end of the day i want to control my car and be able to drive well, that's the goal.
Is it a side turning that you're going in to or just following the road?
For a side turning, the official answer according to the IAM would probably be to brake in good time, make your selection into 2nd (using a rev match) and then go around the corner i.e full separation of the brake and gear phases. As you say this can cause the person following (who's planning on continuing straight) to come rushing up behind you and putting pressure on you.
In these circumstances, the more free thinking, will just tell you to overlap your gear change with the braking phase. I think it's one of the circumstances (along with downhill corners) where roadcraft does actually suggest overlapping the gear change.
In time you can work on your heel and toe to aid mechanical sympathy, but what's one or two overlapped gear changes really going to do to your synchro/clutch wear?
For a side turning, the official answer according to the IAM would probably be to brake in good time, make your selection into 2nd (using a rev match) and then go around the corner i.e full separation of the brake and gear phases. As you say this can cause the person following (who's planning on continuing straight) to come rushing up behind you and putting pressure on you.
In these circumstances, the more free thinking, will just tell you to overlap your gear change with the braking phase. I think it's one of the circumstances (along with downhill corners) where roadcraft does actually suggest overlapping the gear change.
In time you can work on your heel and toe to aid mechanical sympathy, but what's one or two overlapped gear changes really going to do to your synchro/clutch wear?
Sorry for the poor choice in words. To be more accurate it is a side road which I'm turning into, hence why i feel low speed and gear choice is best.
So rev match down shifting would be the best choice here in terms of this turn? Would it be better to go from 4th to 2nd right away or better to change down into 3rd then 2nd? Due to my lack of experience i feel the engine noise and rev matching down from 4th to 2nd sounds like it may be harming something mechanically?
So rev match down shifting would be the best choice here in terms of this turn? Would it be better to go from 4th to 2nd right away or better to change down into 3rd then 2nd? Due to my lack of experience i feel the engine noise and rev matching down from 4th to 2nd sounds like it may be harming something mechanically?
Konic said:
Sorry for the poor choice in words. To be more accurate it is a side road which I'm turning into, hence why i feel low speed and gear choice is best.
So rev match down shifting would be the best choice here in terms of this turn? Would it be better to go from 4th to 2nd right away or better to change down into 3rd then 2nd? Due to my lack of experience i feel the engine noise and rev matching down from 4th to 2nd sounds like it may be harming something mechanically?
I can't help feeling you're trying to run before you can walk.So rev match down shifting would be the best choice here in terms of this turn? Would it be better to go from 4th to 2nd right away or better to change down into 3rd then 2nd? Due to my lack of experience i feel the engine noise and rev matching down from 4th to 2nd sounds like it may be harming something mechanically?
Maybe so. Which is why i'm seeking advice. However, i do feel fairly confident in my driving, What i'm currently looking to improve on is my downshift, being in the the right gear at the right time for the driving conditions.
With so much information out there in regards to what we should be doing as drivers it's confusing for someone like myself who is a new driver and whats to build good habits, while also making sure I'm not harming my car.
With so much information out there in regards to what we should be doing as drivers it's confusing for someone like myself who is a new driver and whats to build good habits, while also making sure I'm not harming my car.
Sounds similar to a local corner. I tend to shift into 2nd, take that one at 20 mph. Alas, on my first ever drive, it was one that I took too fast and nearly ended up through the hedge!
So, on the approch to this, I'll gently brake. I might drop a gear or two in this process, but it's just anti-stall. As I get very close, I firm up my braking a bit, and make the turn. H&T into 2nd during this, then apply the power. If you don't H&T, you could always finish your braking before the corner and rev match in the space.
So, on the approch to this, I'll gently brake. I might drop a gear or two in this process, but it's just anti-stall. As I get very close, I firm up my braking a bit, and make the turn. H&T into 2nd during this, then apply the power. If you don't H&T, you could always finish your braking before the corner and rev match in the space.
That road and turn is very similar to the one I'm trying to describe.
As heel and toe isn't an option right now, would it be better to reduce my speed leading up to the turn, rev match downshift into third gear from say fifth/fourth ( which is what i would be in leading up to the turn ) then brake more closer to the turn and then rev match downshift into second BEFORE the turn? I would guess trying to make a downshift while turning is not the way to go.
The crux of my issue i believe is not being able to brake then downshift at the same time, so learning to heel and toe i think will most likely give me the control i'm after. Most BMW E46 owners say heel and toe is easy due to the pedal layout, however i don't agree. I find the throttle pedal to be far to low when compared to the brake pedal. Unless i'm braking fairly hard and pressing the brake pedal down, there is no way I can blip the throttle without applying unwanted force onto the brake pedal - thus braking harder than is needed - or having my foot in a dodgy position on the brake pedal so i can reach the throttle.
Personally for me, If it would be possible to either drop the brake pedal down or lift the throttle pedal up, then heel and toe in my E46 would be possible.
As heel and toe isn't an option right now, would it be better to reduce my speed leading up to the turn, rev match downshift into third gear from say fifth/fourth ( which is what i would be in leading up to the turn ) then brake more closer to the turn and then rev match downshift into second BEFORE the turn? I would guess trying to make a downshift while turning is not the way to go.
The crux of my issue i believe is not being able to brake then downshift at the same time, so learning to heel and toe i think will most likely give me the control i'm after. Most BMW E46 owners say heel and toe is easy due to the pedal layout, however i don't agree. I find the throttle pedal to be far to low when compared to the brake pedal. Unless i'm braking fairly hard and pressing the brake pedal down, there is no way I can blip the throttle without applying unwanted force onto the brake pedal - thus braking harder than is needed - or having my foot in a dodgy position on the brake pedal so i can reach the throttle.
Personally for me, If it would be possible to either drop the brake pedal down or lift the throttle pedal up, then heel and toe in my E46 would be possible.
Konic said:
As heel and toe isn't an option right now, would it be better to reduce my speed leading up to the turn, rev match downshift into third gear from say fifth/fourth ( which is what i would be in leading up to the turn ) then brake more closer to the turn and then rev match downshift into second BEFORE the turn? I would guess trying to make a downshift while turning is not the way to go.
The crux of my issue i believe is not being able to brake then downshift at the same time, so learning to heel and toe i think will most likely give me the control i'm after.
Not a fan of the double braking as can confuse the driver behind. As mentioned previously by me - Just overlap under this circumstance and change gear while you're braking (with no rev match), straight from 5th/4th into 2nd.The crux of my issue i believe is not being able to brake then downshift at the same time, so learning to heel and toe i think will most likely give me the control i'm after.
IcedKiwi said:
Not a fan of the double braking as can confuse the driver behind. As mentioned previously by me - Just overlap under this circumstance and change gear while you're braking (with no rev match), straight from 5th/4th into 2nd.
I'm not sure i fully understand what you're saying. What do you mean by "overlap" and wouldn't the car lurch forward if i change into second from fifth/fourth gear - of course i would brake and reduce my speed first but I'm trying to keep things smooth and controlled as apposed to just downshifting and making the turn with no rev matching, unless I'm missing something obvious here? Hi Op,
Have a watch of this video, you might find it explains things quite well.
Jump to 09:30 and watch how that corner is taken. Is that similar to what you're experiencing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92zNVC_qKBE
Have a watch of this video, you might find it explains things quite well.
Jump to 09:30 and watch how that corner is taken. Is that similar to what you're experiencing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92zNVC_qKBE
AB57 said:
Hi Op,
Have a watch of this video, you might find it explains things quite well.
Jump to 09:30 and watch how that corner is taken. Is that similar to what you're experiencing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92zNVC_qKBE
More like 10 mins as the 9:30 junction edits before being taken.Have a watch of this video, you might find it explains things quite well.
Jump to 09:30 and watch how that corner is taken. Is that similar to what you're experiencing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92zNVC_qKBE
Its a fairly good example, Change gear leisurely near the end of the braking phase in essence and go straight to the target gear,
Separated would be:
(Mirrors, indicate)
While staying in 4th or 5th, brake until you're at the right speed to take the corner.
Off the brakes smoothly.
Dip clutch, select 2nd, bit of throttle, clutch out smoothly.
Now you're in correct gear at correct speed.
Turn into the side road.
Overlapped is the same, except you start the gear change towards the end of your braking, not after you've finished braking. In other words, once you've nearly slowed down enough and while continuing to brake, you dip the clutch, select 2nd, and immediately after finishing braking, you are gently on the accelerator to match revs and let the clutch out gently to get in gear. And then turn in.
(Mirrors, indicate)
While staying in 4th or 5th, brake until you're at the right speed to take the corner.
Off the brakes smoothly.
Dip clutch, select 2nd, bit of throttle, clutch out smoothly.
Now you're in correct gear at correct speed.
Turn into the side road.
Overlapped is the same, except you start the gear change towards the end of your braking, not after you've finished braking. In other words, once you've nearly slowed down enough and while continuing to brake, you dip the clutch, select 2nd, and immediately after finishing braking, you are gently on the accelerator to match revs and let the clutch out gently to get in gear. And then turn in.
Now we're getting somewhere!
The video does help, thank you. The overlap statement makes more sense now and i see what you guys are talking about.
I think I've also been expecting a bit too much from myself perhaps and trying to drive as if I'm on a track rather than everyday driving on normal roads. I suppose when i read about performance driving and improving driving in terms of learning new techniques, these techniques are generally applied on a track, maybe I've been unrealistic there too.
The video does help, thank you. The overlap statement makes more sense now and i see what you guys are talking about.
I think I've also been expecting a bit too much from myself perhaps and trying to drive as if I'm on a track rather than everyday driving on normal roads. I suppose when i read about performance driving and improving driving in terms of learning new techniques, these techniques are generally applied on a track, maybe I've been unrealistic there too.
ATG said:
Separated would be:
(Mirrors, indicate)
While staying in 4th or 5th, brake until you're at the right speed to take the corner.
Off the brakes smoothly.
Dip clutch, select 2nd, bit of throttle, clutch out smoothly.
Now you're in correct gear at correct speed.
Turn into the side road.
Overlapped is the same, except you start the gear change towards the end of your braking, not after you've finished braking. In other words, once you've nearly slowed down enough and while continuing to brake, you dip the clutch, select 2nd, and immediately after finishing braking, you are gently on the accelerator to match revs and let the clutch out gently to get in gear. And then turn in.
Exactly as said above. Only thing to add: if you cannot see round the bend because of the hedges, and the bend is sharp (such that you would stray over the centre line on the side road), you may need to ensure you are clear on the main road, move more to the right on the main road, and turn in. This is to ensure you do not cross the side road's centre line, inconvenience or hit other vehicles on the side road, or be forced to stop with your rear end sticking out in the main road.(Mirrors, indicate)
While staying in 4th or 5th, brake until you're at the right speed to take the corner.
Off the brakes smoothly.
Dip clutch, select 2nd, bit of throttle, clutch out smoothly.
Now you're in correct gear at correct speed.
Turn into the side road.
Overlapped is the same, except you start the gear change towards the end of your braking, not after you've finished braking. In other words, once you've nearly slowed down enough and while continuing to brake, you dip the clutch, select 2nd, and immediately after finishing braking, you are gently on the accelerator to match revs and let the clutch out gently to get in gear. And then turn in.
My advanced tester, put me through that scenario, and I took the turn wide to start so I was then tucked in well for the side road. Got a brownie point for that!
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