Am i the only person who indicates?

Am i the only person who indicates?

Author
Discussion

akirk

5,376 posts

113 months

Sunday 8th April 2018
quotequote all
Vipers said:
Odd situation near me, the A90 is NSL, as you join it from a T-junction 30 mph turning left to join the dual carriageway, you immediately come across a bus stop in a lay by, bus's stopping there indicate on approach as they are going to slow down and turn into the lay by.

For any one not familiar with that and exiting the 30 mph onto the dual carriageway may think the bus is going to turn into the road your exiting.

Piss poor planning by who ever put the bus stop there.

Not sure how to post map reference, but it's the junction of Bruntland Road, Portlethen, where it joins the A90. Might work (57.0539174,-2.1508865)

Whilst the bus is indicating to pull into the bay, it can also confuse anyone exiting Bruntland Rd.

I don't see an easy way out of this short of moving the bus stop.

Edited by Vipers on Sunday 8th April 22:24
Similar to the petrol station and junction I mentioned earlier in the thread... any time you have two possible reasons for indicating next to each other you have to be careful in how you communicate, some thoughts:
- indicating is most useful for vehicles behind the bus who need to know that it plans to pull over
- cars waiting to exit can wait a little longer, so not indicating will keep them in the junction and they are less likely to pull out
- indicating early could give a misleading message to those in the junction, and though they should still wait, could contribute to an accident, so care should be taken to avoid that impression...

my preferred approach:
- early - way before both junctions (maybe near the sign warning of the upcoming junction), a brief left indicator and a tap on the brakes to light up the brake lights can both warn the vehicles behind...
- as it is early enough, and the indicator is then stopped it doesn't give a wrong message to those waiting in the junction...
- then gradually slow down the pace by lifting off, to reduce the need for braking when eventually turning / stopping...
- do not indicate as you approach the first junction (keeping those cars from coming out)
- and then immediately it is obvious that you are not turning in there, indicate for the next / bus stop...

think of the communication / indicator as spoken communication... Hi guys behind, I will be turning / pulling in soon... be prepared... then nothing to avoid confusing those in the junction, then... turning / stopping now...

there is no need for indication to be one continual use of the indicator -in nearly 20 years of turning in the similar situation, I have not had an issue - think about how you manage other road users through communication...

SVS

3,824 posts

270 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
akirk said:
I think I am now confused biggrin
My mistake. I misread your post.

I generally avoid indicating if it could confuse another road user.

akirk

5,376 posts

113 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
SVS said:
akirk said:
I think I am now confused biggrin
My mistake. I misread your post.

I generally avoid indicating if it could confuse another road user.
phew biggrin - though to be fair, I thought that might be what you meant!

captain_cynic

11,872 posts

94 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
With indicating... If you're thinking "do I really need to indicate in X situation" then you should send your license back to the DVLA.

Indicating shouldn't even be thought about, it should be instinctive. You should indicate without thinking because you've been trained properly and know subconsciously when to do it.

As for the excuse "well if there wasn't anyone around" I can guarantee there was someone around you didn't see.

Len Woodman

168 posts

112 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
With indicating... If you're thinking "do I really need to indicate in X situation" then you should send your license back to the DVLA.

Indicating shouldn't even be thought about, it should be instinctive. You should indicate without thinking because you've been trained properly and know subconsciously when to do it.

As for the excuse "well if there wasn't anyone around" I can guarantee there was someone around you didn't see.
Have you read any of this?

Pica-Pica

13,617 posts

83 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
akirk said:
Vipers said:
Odd situation near me, the A90 is NSL, as you join it from a T-junction 30 mph turning left to join the dual carriageway, you immediately come across a bus stop in a lay by, bus's stopping there indicate on approach as they are going to slow down and turn into the lay by.

For any one not familiar with that and exiting the 30 mph onto the dual carriageway may think the bus is going to turn into the road your exiting.

Piss poor planning by who ever put the bus stop there.

Not sure how to post map reference, but it's the junction of Bruntland Road, Portlethen, where it joins the A90. Might work (57.0539174,-2.1508865)

Whilst the bus is indicating to pull into the bay, it can also confuse anyone exiting Bruntland Rd.

I don't see an easy way out of this short of moving the bus stop.

Edited by Vipers on Sunday 8th April 22:24
Similar to the petrol station and junction I mentioned earlier in the thread... any time you have two possible reasons for indicating next to each other you have to be careful in how you communicate, some thoughts:
- indicating is most useful for vehicles behind the bus who need to know that it plans to pull over
- cars waiting to exit can wait a little longer, so not indicating will keep them in the junction and they are less likely to pull out
- indicating early could give a misleading message to those in the junction, and though they should still wait, could contribute to an accident, so care should be taken to avoid that impression...

my preferred approach:
- early - way before both junctions (maybe near the sign warning of the upcoming junction), a brief left indicator and a tap on the brakes to light up the brake lights can both warn the vehicles behind...
- as it is early enough, and the indicator is then stopped it doesn't give a wrong message to those waiting in the junction...
- then gradually slow down the pace by lifting off, to reduce the need for braking when eventually turning / stopping...
- do not indicate as you approach the first junction (keeping those cars from coming out)
- and then immediately it is obvious that you are not turning in there, indicate for the next / bus stop...

think of the communication / indicator as spoken communication... Hi guys behind, I will be turning / pulling in soon... be prepared... then nothing to avoid confusing those in the junction, then... turning / stopping now...

there is no need for indication to be one continual use of the indicator -in nearly 20 years of turning in the similar situation, I have not had an issue - think about how you manage other road users through communication...
In the situation of the bus driver my preference would be for an early brake light, and a long slow down, until I got the turn. As I got AT the turn I would indicate, just at the point that the emerging driver would see the indicator (even just the repeat indicator on the side). The emerging driver would already see you slowing down, and, as you have not indicated would be wary that something was happening, so should (!) be expecting something. Then as you pass him he would see your indicator, and infer you would be stopping after the junction somewhere (we can assume he has not seen the bus stop).

In this scenario, a sign on the back of the bus, 'BUS STOPPING' would be useful, some countries have them

cmaguire

3,589 posts

108 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
akirk said:
Vipers said:
Odd situation near me, the A90 is NSL, as you join it from a T-junction 30 mph turning left to join the dual carriageway, you immediately come across a bus stop in a lay by, bus's stopping there indicate on approach as they are going to slow down and turn into the lay by.

For any one not familiar with that and exiting the 30 mph onto the dual carriageway may think the bus is going to turn into the road your exiting.

Piss poor planning by who ever put the bus stop there.

Not sure how to post map reference, but it's the junction of Bruntland Road, Portlethen, where it joins the A90. Might work (57.0539174,-2.1508865)

Whilst the bus is indicating to pull into the bay, it can also confuse anyone exiting Bruntland Rd.

I don't see an easy way out of this short of moving the bus stop.

Edited by Vipers on Sunday 8th April 22:24
Similar to the petrol station and junction I mentioned earlier in the thread... any time you have two possible reasons for indicating next to each other you have to be careful in how you communicate, some thoughts:
- indicating is most useful for vehicles behind the bus who need to know that it plans to pull over
- cars waiting to exit can wait a little longer, so not indicating will keep them in the junction and they are less likely to pull out
- indicating early could give a misleading message to those in the junction, and though they should still wait, could contribute to an accident, so care should be taken to avoid that impression...

my preferred approach:
- early - way before both junctions (maybe near the sign warning of the upcoming junction), a brief left indicator and a tap on the brakes to light up the brake lights can both warn the vehicles behind...
- as it is early enough, and the indicator is then stopped it doesn't give a wrong message to those waiting in the junction...
- then gradually slow down the pace by lifting off, to reduce the need for braking when eventually turning / stopping...
- do not indicate as you approach the first junction (keeping those cars from coming out)
- and then immediately it is obvious that you are not turning in there, indicate for the next / bus stop...

think of the communication / indicator as spoken communication... Hi guys behind, I will be turning / pulling in soon... be prepared... then nothing to avoid confusing those in the junction, then... turning / stopping now...

there is no need for indication to be one continual use of the indicator -in nearly 20 years of turning in the similar situation, I have not had an issue - think about how you manage other road users through communication...
Are you posting flyers through everybody's letterbox so they know what you're up to when they see it?
I still think you are massively overthinking the mechanisms you can use to either avoid signalling or to use some convoluted sequence that now uses some kind of time and distance calculation that will confuse other drivers when you claim that is what you want to avoid.

It doesn't matter whether it is a petrol station or a bus-stop close to a junction, you should just indicate perhaps earlier than normal such that those behind are in no doubt, then be prepared to accommodate the vehicle at the junction should they pull out by slowing more than usual prior to your turn.
It is the responsibility of the driver of the vehicle on the minor road to proceed only when safe to do so, you have to expect them to do that yet give yourself the best escape you can if they don't.



Pica-Pica

13,617 posts

83 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
With indicating... If you're thinking "do I really need to indicate in X situation" then you should send your license back to the DVLA.

Indicating shouldn't even be thought about, it should be instinctive. You should indicate without thinking because you've been trained properly and know subconsciously when to do it.

As for the excuse "well if there wasn't anyone around" I can guarantee there was someone around you didn't see.
What!!!
Not indicating because there was no-one around, and not indicating because it could cause confusion (and you have chosen other ways to indicate your intention/make them aware), are two very different things.
One thing they should have in common, is that you have assessed who is around you, who may be hidden, and indicated or not on the basis of that assessment, not by 'instinct'.

Edited by Pica-Pica on Monday 9th April 14:36

Pica-Pica

13,617 posts

83 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
akirk said:
Vipers said:
Odd situation near me, the A90 is NSL, as you join it from a T-junction 30 mph turning left to join the dual carriageway, you immediately come across a bus stop in a lay by, bus's stopping there indicate on approach as they are going to slow down and turn into the lay by.

For any one not familiar with that and exiting the 30 mph onto the dual carriageway may think the bus is going to turn into the road your exiting.

Piss poor planning by who ever put the bus stop there.

Not sure how to post map reference, but it's the junction of Bruntland Road, Portlethen, where it joins the A90. Might work (57.0539174,-2.1508865)

Whilst the bus is indicating to pull into the bay, it can also confuse anyone exiting Bruntland Rd.

I don't see an easy way out of this short of moving the bus stop.

Edited by Vipers on Sunday 8th April 22:24
Similar to the petrol station and junction I mentioned earlier in the thread... any time you have two possible reasons for indicating next to each other you have to be careful in how you communicate, some thoughts:
- indicating is most useful for vehicles behind the bus who need to know that it plans to pull over
- cars waiting to exit can wait a little longer, so not indicating will keep them in the junction and they are less likely to pull out
- indicating early could give a misleading message to those in the junction, and though they should still wait, could contribute to an accident, so care should be taken to avoid that impression...

my preferred approach:
- early - way before both junctions (maybe near the sign warning of the upcoming junction), a brief left indicator and a tap on the brakes to light up the brake lights can both warn the vehicles behind...
- as it is early enough, and the indicator is then stopped it doesn't give a wrong message to those waiting in the junction...
- then gradually slow down the pace by lifting off, to reduce the need for braking when eventually turning / stopping...
- do not indicate as you approach the first junction (keeping those cars from coming out)
- and then immediately it is obvious that you are not turning in there, indicate for the next / bus stop...

think of the communication / indicator as spoken communication... Hi guys behind, I will be turning / pulling in soon... be prepared... then nothing to avoid confusing those in the junction, then... turning / stopping now...

there is no need for indication to be one continual use of the indicator -in nearly 20 years of turning in the similar situation, I have not had an issue - think about how you manage other road users through communication...
Are you posting flyers through everybody's letterbox so they know what you're up to when they see it?
I still think you are massively overthinking the mechanisms you can use to either avoid signalling or to use some convoluted sequence that now uses some kind of time and distance calculation that will confuse other drivers when you claim that is what you want to avoid.

It doesn't matter whether it is a petrol station or a bus-stop close to a junction, you should just indicate perhaps earlier than normal such that those behind are in no doubt, then be prepared to accommodate the vehicle at the junction should they pull out by slowing more than usual prior to your turn.
It is the responsibility of the driver of the vehicle on the minor road to proceed only when safe to do so, you have to expect them to do that yet give yourself the best escape you can if they don't.
I disagree, but my approach would be different to quoted poster (as detailed above)

Pica-Pica

13,617 posts

83 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
.."Piss poor planning by who ever put the bus stop there".
However, putting it BEFORE the junction would mean a coming together of those overtaking the bus, and those possibly emerging.

cmaguire

3,589 posts

108 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
Pica-Pica said:
I disagree, but my approach would be different to quoted poster (as detailed above)
If you have indicated and slowed earlier than usual then two extra possibilities are there, 1. that the vehicle at the junction will know you are slowing to make a turn and your reduced speed is such that they are able to exit the junction safely ahead of you, or 2. you can flash them out provided pulling into your lane is their only option and therefore safe.
In addition vehicles behind know you are slowing because you are turning and aren't wondering what the hell you're playing at, which sometimes has them making unprepared overtakes.

akirk

5,376 posts

113 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
Are you posting flyers through everybody's letterbox so they know what you're up to when they see it?
I still think you are massively overthinking the mechanisms you can use to either avoid signalling or to use some convoluted sequence that now uses some kind of time and distance calculation that will confuse other drivers when you claim that is what you want to avoid.

It doesn't matter whether it is a petrol station or a bus-stop close to a junction, you should just indicate perhaps earlier than normal such that those behind are in no doubt, then be prepared to accommodate the vehicle at the junction should they pull out by slowing more than usual prior to your turn.
It is the responsibility of the driver of the vehicle on the minor road to proceed only when safe to do so, you have to expect them to do that yet give yourself the best escape you can if they don't.
I am not overthinking - this is a forum where we discuss the minutiae, so it might come across that way... however I take each situation individually and adjust accordingly... in the local example of the petrol station which I posted about earlier in this thread (immediately followed by a junction, and therefore similar to the bus-stop example), there have been numerous accidents there where a car indicates 'earlier than normal' and the car waiting in the first exit pulls out into the oncoming car - it is a spot notorious for that... of course, I could do that, then post on PH complaining about it and being a warrior about my rights and the responsibility of the other driver to only proceed when safe to do so... or I could take an approach which in c. 20 years has caused no issues and manage expectations...

I would far prefer to avoid an accident occurring than justify right and wrong after an accident - equally, I have no desire to give way each time to locals pulling out from the forecourt - so, I don't indicate early as that adds confusion - but I have still given a signal to those behind that I will be changing direction and turning off so that they don't ram me from behind assuming that I will be continuing along the fast straight road...

so, no - I won't be accommodating them if they pull out - they can wait - and I won't dominate the junction PH style and accuse them of driving badly after having confused them with an inappropriate signal - instead, simple, courteous and tidy - no issues...

Pica-Pica said:
I disagree, but my approach would be different to quoted poster (as detailed above)
I think our approach sounds pretty similar - early warning / slow down the situation etc.

akirk

5,376 posts

113 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
With indicating... If you're thinking "do I really need to indicate in X situation" then you should send your license back to the DVLA.

Indicating shouldn't even be thought about, it should be instinctive. You should indicate without thinking because you've been trained properly and know subconsciously when to do it.

As for the excuse "well if there wasn't anyone around" I can guarantee there was someone around you didn't see.
I am intrigued by your guarantee - I approached a roundabout the other day and could see no-one on the roundabout, no-one on an approaching road, no-one leaving the roundabout - basically no-one there... I often drive on roads around here where you see no car for 1/2 a mile or more...

I have to say that I am very impressed though by your stunningly detailed knowledge of where every car, pedestrian, cyclist and horse rider etc. is in the country at any one time biggrin does your guarantee take some form of monetary guarantee? If so, can I claim?! biggrin

fortunately I am reasonably well trained, so as a result I consider lots of things all the time when driving...

and just for the PH bingo card - 'a licence' / 'to license' biggrin

Vipers

32,796 posts

227 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
Pica-Pica said:
I disagree, but my approach would be different to quoted poster (as detailed above)
If you have indicated and slowed earlier than usual then two extra possibilities are there, 1. that the vehicle at the junction will know you are slowing to make a turn and your reduced speed is such that they are able to exit the junction safely ahead of you, or 2. you can flash them out provided pulling into your lane is their only option and therefore safe.
In addition vehicles behind know you are slowing because you are turning and aren't wondering what the hell you're playing at, which sometimes has them making unprepared overtakes.
I wouldn't cross a dual carriageway because a bus flashed me, we all know what flashing your lights mean in law, remember as well this is a NSW road, which generally means 70 +

If you look at the link I posted oh will see how a dangerous position this bus stop is in. Would have been safer in my opinion to put it before the junction with a lay by which they all have on this road, opinions will differ of course.

The junction was a nightmare getting onto the Northbound or indeed Southbound during rush, so they built a zillion dollar flyover just up the road, so in reality this junction could be closed off.

gothatway

5,783 posts

169 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
you can flash them out provided pulling into your lane is their only option and therefore safe.
No, no, no. Would you as the driver of the waiting car take any heed of such a signal ?

cmaguire said:
It doesn't matter whether it is a petrol station or a bus-stop close to a junction, you should just indicate perhaps earlier than normal such that those behind are in no doubt, then be prepared to accommodate the vehicle at the junction should they pull out by slowing more than usual prior to your turn.
No, no, no. You should delay your signal to avoid giving the vehicle at the junction the wrong message - while nevertheless being prepared for them to pull out anyway of course.

I am in the camp that doesn't signal if I'm sure there can be no-one there to benefit from a signal (e.g. joining or leaving an empty motorway). But I'm intrigued by a different circumstance - if you're in a right-turn (or left-turn) only lane, do you keep your indicator going ? Particularly if you're in a queue of traffic waiting for a filter to go green ?

cmaguire

3,589 posts

108 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
Vipers said:
cmaguire said:
Pica-Pica said:
I disagree, but my approach would be different to quoted poster (as detailed above)
If you have indicated and slowed earlier than usual then two extra possibilities are there, 1. that the vehicle at the junction will know you are slowing to make a turn and your reduced speed is such that they are able to exit the junction safely ahead of you, or 2. you can flash them out provided pulling into your lane is their only option and therefore safe.
In addition vehicles behind know you are slowing because you are turning and aren't wondering what the hell you're playing at, which sometimes has them making unprepared overtakes.
I wouldn't cross a dual carriageway because a bus flashed me, we all know what flashing your lights mean in law, remember as well this is a NSW road, which generally means 70 +

If you look at the link I posted oh will see how a dangerous position this bus stop is in. Would have been safer in my opinion to put it before the junction with a lay by which they all have on this road, opinions will differ of course.

The junction was a nightmare getting onto the Northbound or indeed Southbound during rush, so they built a zillion dollar flyover just up the road, so in reality this junction could be closed off.
You have bolded a section then interpreted it differently to what is written.
I have not suggested flashing a vehicle to imply it is safe for them to CROSS in front of me. If the option of either turning left from the side road into my lane (the situation I am suggesting) or passing in front of me to either traverse the road or turn right were available then I would not consider flashing anyone out. I would only do this if turning left was their only option.

Pica-Pica

13,617 posts

83 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
Vipers said:
cmaguire said:
Pica-Pica said:
I disagree, but my approach would be different to quoted poster (as detailed above)
If you have indicated and slowed earlier than usual then two extra possibilities are there, 1. that the vehicle at the junction will know you are slowing to make a turn and your reduced speed is such that they are able to exit the junction safely ahead of you, or 2. you can flash them out provided pulling into your lane is their only option and therefore safe.
In addition vehicles behind know you are slowing because you are turning and aren't wondering what the hell you're playing at, which sometimes has them making unprepared overtakes.
I wouldn't cross a dual carriageway because a bus flashed me, we all know what flashing your lights mean in law, remember as well this is a NSW road, which generally means 70 +

If you look at the link I posted oh will see how a dangerous position this bus stop is in. Would have been safer in my opinion to put it before the junction with a lay by which they all have on this road, opinions will differ of course.

The junction was a nightmare getting onto the Northbound or indeed Southbound during rush, so they built a zillion dollar flyover just up the road, so in reality this junction could be closed off.
You have bolded a section then interpreted it differently to what is written.
I have not suggested flashing a vehicle to imply it is safe for them to CROSS in front of me. If the option of either turning left from the side road into my lane (the situation I am suggesting) or passing in front of me to either traverse the road or turn right were available then I would not consider flashing anyone out. I would only do this if turning left was their only option.
I can’t never, but I rarely flash to invite people out, I do not know if a motor bike or whatever is about to overtake, and there is no time to check, conclusively, before flashing. Like the ‘how often do you use the horn?’ thread we could start one on headlamp flashing, but I know where that would go.

cmaguire

3,589 posts

108 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
gothatway said:
cmaguire said:
you can flash them out provided pulling into your lane is their only option and therefore safe.
No, no, no. Would you as the driver of the waiting car take any heed of such a signal ?

cmaguire said:
Why not? You can make a judgement call. If a vehicle is approaching at say 25 mph and I know I can comfortably pull out and accelerate quick enough so as to not interfere with their progress then what's the problem?

It doesn't matter whether it is a petrol station or a bus-stop close to a junction, you should just indicate perhaps earlier than normal such that those behind are in no doubt, then be prepared to accommodate the vehicle at the junction should they pull out by slowing more than usual prior to your turn.
No, no, no. You should delay your signal to avoid giving the vehicle at the junction the wrong message - while nevertheless being prepared for them to pull out anyway of course.

I am in the camp that doesn't signal if I'm sure there can be no-one there to benefit from a signal (e.g. joining or leaving an empty motorway). But I'm intrigued by a different circumstance - if you're in a right-turn (or left-turn) only lane, do you keep your indicator going ? Particularly if you're in a queue of traffic waiting for a filter to go green ?
If the turn-only lane is moving as you enter it then I can't see any harm in indicating as it confirms to others that you are genuinely in the correct lane and aren't going to carry straight on as some do. Where is the harm or the confusion that so many here appear to get hung up on?

cmaguire

3,589 posts

108 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
The whole quoting, formatting etc on here is so clunky and prehistoric

Pica-Pica

13,617 posts

83 months

Monday 9th April 2018
quotequote all
.."But I'm intrigued by a different circumstance - if you're in a right-turn (or left-turn) only lane, do you keep your indicator going ? Particularly if you're in a queue of traffic waiting for a filter to go green ?"
.....
I indicate to go into a right turn lane. Once in it and I know I will be held up, I cancel. When the right turn only light changes, I start indicating again. This is a particular junction that I have in mind, and the pedestrian lights, and the bunches of flowers by the railings, remind some road users are more vulnerable than others.