Am i the only person who indicates?
Discussion
lyonspride said:
RobM77 said:
You're not indicating for yourself, you're indicating for others - it's a method of communication. Those other people may not know this.
Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are a
holes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.
Well the IAM would disagree. They very much focus on being aware of surroundings and indicating only when required. This means thinking about what your doing, what's going on and who is around you.Not everyone is going to move back to lane one after an overtake (known as lane hogging - it happens!), and other people, such as those in my examples given earlier, may need to know what you're about to do - are you a lane hogger, or are you moving back in, have you spotted a parking layby at the last second? etc etc. Furthermore, the timing of the move back to L1 will vary between people. For example, if there's a sliproad up ahead and cars are waiting to join the Mway/DC, then some people in L2 will move back to lane one and block those joining, whereas others will stay out. Yes, the former group are a
holes, but it happens and people need to know what you're doing so they can make a plan. As always with these discussions, the disclaimer is that nobody's going to make a decision based on an indicator that would be critical to having and accident or not, but those decisions are helpful to smooth and safe flow of traffic, and by not indicating you can inhibit that, which is bad driving.Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 19th September 13:27
When driving becomes automatic (ie not thinking) then complacency creeps in and I would argue that complacency is a serious hazard on the roads.
Quite helpful
http://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/a...
Edited by lyonspride on Tuesday 19th September 14:38
This issue in this thread is that right turns a driver waits to turn but no indication the turns with the indicator last minute. Or they never signal no matter the turn.
The whole thread went from why to who will benefit without the AIM lot going "yep you are right the idiots fail to indicate and there is a difference between .
Or we are if someone can benefit "Well how about me behind you useless f
kers.. Having read the posts on this thread, I'm of the opinion that those who are critical of IAM Roadsmart standards perhaps ought to present themselves for the IAM driving assessment. It's free, and never used to mean a commitment to attending the course or being formally tested. My assessor asked "do you always drive like this" after the assessment, and upon hearing my "I've toned it down a bit (actually, a lot) for you" as my response, said "I don't know how you've lived so long" (I was approaching fifty back then)
I didn't see any criticism of those who think the mere act of indicating accords them the right to perform their intended manoeuvre. By that, I mean, for instance, the guys who sit behind a slow moving vehicle until you're overtaking them, just on their rear offside quarter, at which time they indicate and pull out into your path in one movement, or those slow drivers who indicate just as they're leaving the motorway, (IAM suggest signalling from the 300 yard markers) I've been on the "off" slip alongside them, on their nearside, before now, when they've realised they need my space... or those whose positioning on a roundabout is ambiguous (remaining in one of the outer lanes until they peel off, whereas they ought to be making their way back to the appropriate lane early enough for their intention to exit to be obvious, as well as giving the appropriate signal, at the appropriate time.) Then, of course, there are those who indicate too early on a roundabout, leading those waiting to enter it to believe they can proceed...
Seek out your local IAM or ROSPA group, guys, then come back and tell us how you did. I picked up a lot of bad habits driving to and from installation jobs, covering 50,000 miles a year. I would have benefited from IAM training before I started doing that job.
On the subject of indicating unnecessarily, I've had a lot of time on the roads watching other drivers' behaviour, and find it amusing to see people indicating at night time when only they and I are on an otherwise deserted road, with me so far behind that their indication's totally unnecessary, and in any case, why were they in lane two? Then, when I overtake (without indicating, since, in the dark, they ought to be aware my headlamps are no longer directly behind them, but in their offside mirror), and return to lane one when I'm far enough ahead not to affect them, they put on their main beam or hazard warning lights in reproach for my perceived failure to indicate!
Try the assessment, guys, it can't do any harm, and you may, as I did, benefit from a few words of wisdom.
I didn't see any criticism of those who think the mere act of indicating accords them the right to perform their intended manoeuvre. By that, I mean, for instance, the guys who sit behind a slow moving vehicle until you're overtaking them, just on their rear offside quarter, at which time they indicate and pull out into your path in one movement, or those slow drivers who indicate just as they're leaving the motorway, (IAM suggest signalling from the 300 yard markers) I've been on the "off" slip alongside them, on their nearside, before now, when they've realised they need my space... or those whose positioning on a roundabout is ambiguous (remaining in one of the outer lanes until they peel off, whereas they ought to be making their way back to the appropriate lane early enough for their intention to exit to be obvious, as well as giving the appropriate signal, at the appropriate time.) Then, of course, there are those who indicate too early on a roundabout, leading those waiting to enter it to believe they can proceed...
Seek out your local IAM or ROSPA group, guys, then come back and tell us how you did. I picked up a lot of bad habits driving to and from installation jobs, covering 50,000 miles a year. I would have benefited from IAM training before I started doing that job.
On the subject of indicating unnecessarily, I've had a lot of time on the roads watching other drivers' behaviour, and find it amusing to see people indicating at night time when only they and I are on an otherwise deserted road, with me so far behind that their indication's totally unnecessary, and in any case, why were they in lane two? Then, when I overtake (without indicating, since, in the dark, they ought to be aware my headlamps are no longer directly behind them, but in their offside mirror), and return to lane one when I'm far enough ahead not to affect them, they put on their main beam or hazard warning lights in reproach for my perceived failure to indicate!
Try the assessment, guys, it can't do any harm, and you may, as I did, benefit from a few words of wisdom.
bobble293 said:
Having read the posts on this thread, I'm of the opinion that those who are critical of IAM Roadsmart standards perhaps ought to present themselves for the IAM driving assessment.
As far as I know, many/most of us have dabbled with IAM and RoSPA over the years; it would perhaps be odd for us to be on this sub-forum otherwise. I've had a few sessions with each and a day of coaching from a RoSPA guru. The main reason I've stopped there is that I do a huge amount of things in my spare time and don't really have time for much more, plus some of those hobbies involve a lot of driving and I really don't want to be doing more. I agree with much of what's taught and discussed, but disagree over a few things, namely indicating, steering technique and heel and toe. I've also heard some advocates of both camps say rather odd things about weight transfer management whilst driving on the road. I don't wish that to sound arrogant, rathermore as far as I understand it, both syllabi are never intended to be the 'be all and end all' of driving, rathermore a condensed form of safe driving practises that can be taught and mastered in a limited amount of time. If you have spent time training in other areas of driving, such as track driving, there are many techniques that cross over, but aren't necessarily taught by the IAM due to the limited nature of their training remit, but that doesn't mean they're irrelevant. Regarding my comments on indicating (which obviously doesn't cross over from track driving!), I view them as simply common sense, and remain surprised by the IAM's attitude on that front, which is another reason I don't do more advanced road driving: I find a few (just a few) of their practises dogmatic and rather illogical. As ever, the antedote to dogma is listening to other people's views, discussion, consideration and debate, which is why I participate in this sub-forum.Pica-Pica said:
nonsequitur said:
Pica-Pica said:
Never indicating is only thinking about yourself
Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Sorry Pica, I don't follow.Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Edited by Pica-Pica on Saturday 7th October 10:44
If you always indicate, then you are not observing enough to recognise the nuances of road users presence and movement that may mean a signal may confuse others or otherwise add to the 'lighting clutter' around. That is just 'I am OK, I signalled'. So that too is selfish.
BTW, The first use of ' the nuances of road users' I have read on PH. Do they have nuances? From reading this, and other, threads, it seems to be ' Grab the steering wheel and off we go!'
nonsequitur said:
Pica-Pica said:
nonsequitur said:
Pica-Pica said:
Never indicating is only thinking about yourself
Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Sorry Pica, I don't follow.Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Edited by Pica-Pica on Saturday 7th October 10:44
If you always indicate, then you are not observing enough to recognise the nuances of road users presence and movement that may mean a signal may confuse others or otherwise add to the 'lighting clutter' around. That is just 'I am OK, I signalled'. So that too is selfish.
BTW, The first use of ' the nuances of road users' I have read on PH. Do they have nuances? From reading this, and other, threads, it seems to be ' Grab the steering wheel and off we go!'
RobM77 said:
nonsequitur said:
Pica-Pica said:
nonsequitur said:
Pica-Pica said:
Never indicating is only thinking about yourself
Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Sorry Pica, I don't follow.Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Edited by Pica-Pica on Saturday 7th October 10:44
If you always indicate, then you are not observing enough to recognise the nuances of road users presence and movement that may mean a signal may confuse others or otherwise add to the 'lighting clutter' around. That is just 'I am OK, I signalled'. So that too is selfish.
BTW, The first use of ' the nuances of road users' I have read on PH. Do they have nuances? From reading this, and other, threads, it seems to be ' Grab the steering wheel and off we go!'
nonsequitur said:
RobM77 said:
nonsequitur said:
Pica-Pica said:
nonsequitur said:
Pica-Pica said:
Never indicating is only thinking about yourself
Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Sorry Pica, I don't follow.Always indicating is also only thinking about yourself.
Edited by Pica-Pica on Saturday 7th October 10:44
If you always indicate, then you are not observing enough to recognise the nuances of road users presence and movement that may mean a signal may confuse others or otherwise add to the 'lighting clutter' around. That is just 'I am OK, I signalled'. So that too is selfish.
BTW, The first use of ' the nuances of road users' I have read on PH. Do they have nuances? From reading this, and other, threads, it seems to be ' Grab the steering wheel and off we go!'
1) Not having the arrogance to assume your observation has been perfect. Isn't "sorry mate I didn't see you" a common first phrase after many accidents?... How can we avoid accidents? 1. Better observation and planning. 2. Not assuming your observation is perfect!
2) Someone may appear to you late in your manoeuvre who would benefit from your indication. Once you're already on top of a situation it's not ideal to potentially have to loosen your grip on the wheel or actually let go of the wheel and move your hand to indicate, it's better to have done it already. The other issue here is the time it takes for you to see that road user, think that they'll need to see your indicator, move your hand, push the lever and the indicator to illuminate. That time period, comprising of multiple brain and motor processes (see, think, move, push), is always going to be longer than the recipient of the signal simply acknowledging that you're indicating and making a decision, ergo they'll be a difference in time which can only be accounted for if you started indicating earlier, before you saw that road user.
3) A combination of the above - i.e. someone sees you, but you haven't seen them yet. This can be quite common with runners at night on unlit roads: a) they'll be prepared because they'll have heard you and seen your lights from hundreds of metres away, and b) if they're wearing reflective clothes but no lights, you won't see them until they're in the path of your headlights; this particularly applies at t junctions for obvious reasons.
The other thing worth mentioning is the tiny effort it takes to indicate, so why not? Could it save someone's life at that point you fail to spot someone and they're silly enough to act 100% on your indicator? Yes, it could, because nobody's perfect and those two things will coincide every now and then. Accidents, thankfully, are rare, so avoiding them is therefore about spotting the rare possibilities and guarding against them.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 10th October 09:43
Signalling is
Where necessary
Properly timed
Correctly
We should signal if "any other road user" would benefit. We can't always "see" or "hear" all other road users, so if there is a suspicion there could be another road user (for example at a "closed" junction)....then put it on
A signal is also a brake light applied/hand signal/road position/speed into a situation
Brake light = I am slowing or stopping
Hand signal = F. O. !
( on a serious note does any/everyone know the "official hand signals in the HWC)
Road position/speed into a roundabout (could be cutting straight across, using the camber of the road, and speed onto approach. So if I see no signal, fast onto a roundabout, and judge that there is no physical way some one is turning across the front of me, (or i am following him) I assume he is going straight on, and adjust my speed/position etc to accommodate it
It is incredibly frustrating when you do not understand the intentions of other road users, so you should allow for them in your own driving. Allow more space and time and road position for the "what if ?"
If someone is signaling it means only that " The indicators work!"
If they are not signaling "You have no idea what they are doing!" so react accordingly
Never or try to avoid going alongside an HGV or bus on a roundabout, they cut the lane markers, and have massive blind spots, so may not know you are there
I have "assessed " hundreds of "wanna be" taxi drivers, "fleet training for company car/van drivers. Many have poor mirror work, and signal incorrectly..... they are very often not successful in the assessments . How can you signal if you have not looked first to see if anything is there or not ?
Many (in particular elderly and foreign drivers) have no idea on approaching roundabouts when to signal and position the vehicle.
Many many will signal right to go straight on, and then not bother to signal to exit the roundabout at the correct point.
I advise on exiting a roundabout to
1 interior mirror, then near side mirror
2 signal left
3 look left (out of nearside front window so you actually have to turn your head, this increases your vision, reducing "blind spot" and further use or peripheral vision)
4 then if it safe turn left/change lanes
With learners I suggest/chant to them and encourage them to say "Mirrors left, signal left, look left, turn left" It makes for a safer exit, and properly timed you and other road yours are best informed of the intention.
All of us have been "undertaken" on a roundabout........were we aware of the "offending vehicle?......was our speed, position, signal correct? What could we have done differently to prevent the undertake?........ some times it is our fault by poor signalling or being misleading. We have all had to stop or started to pull out because we did not make the correct choice in "pulling out "
"If in doubt...Don't pull out!"
Where necessary
Properly timed
Correctly
We should signal if "any other road user" would benefit. We can't always "see" or "hear" all other road users, so if there is a suspicion there could be another road user (for example at a "closed" junction)....then put it on
A signal is also a brake light applied/hand signal/road position/speed into a situation
Brake light = I am slowing or stopping
Hand signal = F. O. !
( on a serious note does any/everyone know the "official hand signals in the HWC)Road position/speed into a roundabout (could be cutting straight across, using the camber of the road, and speed onto approach. So if I see no signal, fast onto a roundabout, and judge that there is no physical way some one is turning across the front of me, (or i am following him) I assume he is going straight on, and adjust my speed/position etc to accommodate it
It is incredibly frustrating when you do not understand the intentions of other road users, so you should allow for them in your own driving. Allow more space and time and road position for the "what if ?"
If someone is signaling it means only that " The indicators work!"
If they are not signaling "You have no idea what they are doing!" so react accordingly
Never or try to avoid going alongside an HGV or bus on a roundabout, they cut the lane markers, and have massive blind spots, so may not know you are there
I have "assessed " hundreds of "wanna be" taxi drivers, "fleet training for company car/van drivers. Many have poor mirror work, and signal incorrectly..... they are very often not successful in the assessments . How can you signal if you have not looked first to see if anything is there or not ?
Many (in particular elderly and foreign drivers) have no idea on approaching roundabouts when to signal and position the vehicle.
Many many will signal right to go straight on, and then not bother to signal to exit the roundabout at the correct point.
I advise on exiting a roundabout to
1 interior mirror, then near side mirror
2 signal left
3 look left (out of nearside front window so you actually have to turn your head, this increases your vision, reducing "blind spot" and further use or peripheral vision)
4 then if it safe turn left/change lanes
With learners I suggest/chant to them and encourage them to say "Mirrors left, signal left, look left, turn left" It makes for a safer exit, and properly timed you and other road yours are best informed of the intention.
All of us have been "undertaken" on a roundabout........were we aware of the "offending vehicle?......was our speed, position, signal correct? What could we have done differently to prevent the undertake?........ some times it is our fault by poor signalling or being misleading. We have all had to stop or started to pull out because we did not make the correct choice in "pulling out "
"If in doubt...Don't pull out!"
Well said Watchnut. I have just returned from 3,000 miles driving around the UK. So refreshing to see (or not see!) that drivers were not "over-signalling" as they do here in Australia. As there is absolutely no concept of advanced driving here only a very small minority of drivers have any clue about good driving. Added to this the rules demand signalling at all times when changing direction (moving more than a metre from one's current course!) and allows undertaking. So the sequence of actions for most is, start to move, put signal on, possibly check mirror to see what trouble has been caused and who is giving the 'finger'!
Len - Sydney
Len - Sydney
Max_Torque said:
and i was following a fully marked police car that also completely failed to indicate during the time i was behind it!
I too followed a fully marked police car this evening driving back from Leeds and he (she) did't indicate at all!That's because there was no need to....
As the thread on here about the chappie who recently completed his Standard, PDC, not all Police Drivers are as capable as others... as in all walks of life...
It is impossible to work out what most people are doing on roundabouts now. The 'don't rely on an indicator' rule has gone out the window and now there is no 'indication' at all as to what they are doing. I don't see why this has become such an inconvenience to do. Jumping red lights seems pretty standard now too.
Don't get me started on indication!!
My biggest bug bear!!!
Class 1 HGV here, my biggest issue on roundabouts with folk who chose not to signal, getting 44tonne on the go takes some time, people either can't be bothered, not sure how to signal or didn't have indicator stalks fitted as standard when they purchased said vehicle!!
I've done my IAM and got a first, now having a few refreshers to do my masters, the IAM stance it to signal only where someone will benefit, otherwise it's simply a waste of signal, i tend to drop a signal on if my view is obscured on a blind junction (wall) and I can't see if a car is approaching the junction, then my signal isn't rushed and late.
For me the underuse (zero use)of indication is a national epidemic!(tongue in cheek btw)
My biggest bug bear!!!
Class 1 HGV here, my biggest issue on roundabouts with folk who chose not to signal, getting 44tonne on the go takes some time, people either can't be bothered, not sure how to signal or didn't have indicator stalks fitted as standard when they purchased said vehicle!!
I've done my IAM and got a first, now having a few refreshers to do my masters, the IAM stance it to signal only where someone will benefit, otherwise it's simply a waste of signal, i tend to drop a signal on if my view is obscured on a blind junction (wall) and I can't see if a car is approaching the junction, then my signal isn't rushed and late.
For me the underuse (zero use)of indication is a national epidemic!(tongue in cheek btw)
Len Woodman said:
So refreshing to see (or not see!) that drivers were not "over-signalling" as they do here
I still fail to see the issue with “over-signalling”. Surely the downsides of under-signalling outweigh the downsides (if any) of over-signalling? A missed signal can cause a significant problem. Whereas over-signalling rarely does.I know Roadcraft dislikes needless signalling (I’ve done HPC). However, things have moved on since Lord Cottenham’s day; traffic volume’s much heavier and it’s easier to miss someone who could benefit from a signal. We all make human errors, regardless of training.
FlyingFin said:
Max_Torque said:
and i was following a fully marked police car that also completely failed to indicate during the time i was behind it!
I too followed a fully marked police car this evening driving back from Leeds and he (she) did't indicate at all!That's because there was no need to....
As the thread on here about the chappie who recently completed his Standard, PDC, not all Police Drivers are as capable as others... as in all walks of life...
caelite said:
You know this is something I have often wondered; on a dual carriageway, fairly quiet with mainly traffic in L1, I come up behind a truck/slower car, my usual manoeuvre is to signal to move out to L2, pass, then move back to L1 after I can gained 30-50m gap on the car I have passed.
Should I use my indicator to move back to L1? I often don't unless I have someone behind me in L2 as I see moving to L2 to pass then moving back in as 1 whole passing manoeuvre rather than 2 Lane changes.
I notice the consensus with other drivers seems to be the same, not indicating to return to L1, but I have no idea if it is the 'right' thing or not.
Please ALWAYS indicate before ANY manoeuvre. It costs nothing does it? In my motorbiking days I was more than once nearly wiped out by a car deciding to change lane with no signal.Should I use my indicator to move back to L1? I often don't unless I have someone behind me in L2 as I see moving to L2 to pass then moving back in as 1 whole passing manoeuvre rather than 2 Lane changes.
I notice the consensus with other drivers seems to be the same, not indicating to return to L1, but I have no idea if it is the 'right' thing or not.
Why do so many people think they can change lane etc without indicating? Do they always know exactly what is around them at all times, are they super human? I guess all the idiots who advocate on this thread changing from any lane to another without indicating never make a mistake. At least if you indicate needlessly 1000 times, one day it may actually give someone sufficient warning to take evasive action.
I indicate when going around cyclists and at all other times, never know when I have missed some motorcyclist coming down the outside. Same if changing lane from L2 to L1 etc you never know if someone is undertaking you on a motorbike etc. It costs nothing just do it (unless you're a BMW/Audi driver in which case I accept your cars are not fitted with indicators ;-) ).
MikeStroud said:
Please ALWAYS indicate before ANY manoeuvre. It costs nothing does it? In my motorbiking days I was more than once nearly wiped out by a car deciding to change lane with no signal.
Why do so many people think they can change lane etc without indicating? Do they always know exactly what is around them at all times, are they super human? I guess all the idiots who advocate on this thread changing from any lane to another without indicating never make a mistake. At least if you indicate needlessly 1000 times, one day it may actually give someone sufficient warning to take evasive action.
I indicate when going around cyclists and at all other times, never know when I have missed some motorcyclist coming down the outside. Same if changing lane from L2 to L1 etc you never know if someone is undertaking you on a motorbike etc. It costs nothing just do it (unless you're a BMW/Audi driver in which case I accept your cars are not fitted with indicators ;-) ).
Don't need to indicate changing to lower number lanes, lane 3 to lane 2, lane 2 to lane 1, etc etc.Why do so many people think they can change lane etc without indicating? Do they always know exactly what is around them at all times, are they super human? I guess all the idiots who advocate on this thread changing from any lane to another without indicating never make a mistake. At least if you indicate needlessly 1000 times, one day it may actually give someone sufficient warning to take evasive action.
I indicate when going around cyclists and at all other times, never know when I have missed some motorcyclist coming down the outside. Same if changing lane from L2 to L1 etc you never know if someone is undertaking you on a motorbike etc. It costs nothing just do it (unless you're a BMW/Audi driver in which case I accept your cars are not fitted with indicators ;-) ).
First of all, lane 1 is the normal driving lane, lane 2 and 3 are overtaking lanes, when you begin an overtake it is "mirror, signal, manoeuvre" and then you pull back into your original lane as an integral part of that manoeuvre.
Secondly there shouldn't be anyone driving up the inside, so there shouldn't be anyone to warn, and if some idiot is trying to "undertake" then go ahead and indicate.
I always indicate to pass cyclists, even if there is no other vehicle around, because I want the cyclist to know i'm there and tooting ones horn, or dropping a rev bomb is only going to make the overtake more dangerous.......
I also indicate to pass parked cars, IF said car is parked such that I have to encroach into the oncoming lane.
What I gather from this thread is whenever someone says "I only indicate if anyone is around to benefit from it", and then someone else chimes in with (what they think is a clever response), "well what if there is a XYZ, blah blah blah", COMPLETELY missing the point that in that situation said driver would have noticed and decided whether to use their indicators.
It seems to some people it's very black and white, it's either indicate or don't and they can't quite grasp the concept of judging the situation and taking the right measures at the right time. Driving is in their minds a "procedure" a "desk instruction" a bunch of set in stone rules that must be followed in all situations regardless of the potential danger it may cause and without the application of any common sense.
Assuming that everyone follows the Highway Code and has common sense isn't really going to work 
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