Stationary in gear

[dvenman]

I have a "short stop" and "long stop" concept in my head.

Short stop is for junctions where I may need to wait for a few (indeterminate, some, an "ish" amount of) seconds. Handbrake on, feet on gas and clutch, car in gear, ready to take the handbrake off then move off without rolling backwards.

Long stop is for traffic lights or situations where I may need to remain stationary for more than a few seconds - it's handbrake on then neutral, and watch for signs I may be able to move off and it's clutch in, into gear, handbrake on but finger on the button and move off when I'm ready.

Both of these work for me to let me have a degree of certainty the car won't move when I don't want it to, and I can get clutch and gas ready to move off without rolling when I want.

I'd never considered being hit from behind - to be honest, that's probably not in my control anyway.

[WilliamWoollard]

There will be no fault recorded on a driving test for leaving the car in gear, or with/without handbrake applied providing it doesn't cause a control issue.

We often see pupils who do not anticipate being able to move away as well an experienced driver would do, leading to panic and trying to quickly select 1st, but getting 3rd instead, then stalling.
I generally prefer them to leave it in gear if we're the first one or two cars at the front, if we're further back then I prefer neutral as they will have plenty of time to get ready when the cars in front start moving. Handbrake use is encouraged if it's more than a brief stop or we're on a hill.

Learners should be taught that keeping control is the important thing, if the pupil's chosen method works for them and is safe, I'm happy.

[The Dangerous Elk]

give up Red, you are looking silly.

[red]

The Dangerous Elk said:

give up Red, you are looking silly.

Really why?
What are the chances of being hit at the rear by another vehicle?
Wouldn't you want to be ready to get out of their way rather than sitting waiting to be hit with your fingers crossed.
Having your handbrake on will not stop your vehicle being moved forward, as a vehicle brakes the weight is thrown forward and most likely lift the rear of you vehicle, enough that the wheels can lose grip with the road, depending on the impact speed.

[The Dangerous Elk]

oh dear oh dear....

[red]

The Dangerous Elk said:

give up Red, you are looking silly.

I have seen your answers, I could say the same to you, but its not helpful.

[xjay1337]

red said:

You have taken away the options of not being hit. Do you think having the handbrake applied will prevent you being pushed forward, maybe into crossing traffic?

Clown

[mawallace]

dvenman said:

I have a "short stop" and "long stop" concept in my head.

Short stop is for junctions where I may need to wait for a few (indeterminate, some, an "ish" amount of) seconds. Handbrake on, feet on gas and clutch, car in gear, ready to take the handbrake off then move off without rolling backwards.

Long stop is for traffic lights or situations where I may need to remain stationary for more than a few seconds - it's handbrake on then neutral, and watch for signs I may be able to move off and it's clutch in, into gear, handbrake on but finger on the button and move off when I'm ready.

Both of these work for me to let me have a degree of certainty the car won't move when I don't want it to, and I can get clutch and gas ready to move off without rolling when I want.

I'd never considered being hit from behind - to be honest, that's probably not in my control anyway.

I think there is an issue with cars with Auto Start stop.

During an Advanced Driving session we were discussing this very topic. i think that we decided that it would be better to keep the clutch depressed with car in gear for a 'short stop' while handbrake, then neutral, for a long stop. Otherwise you get a delay with the auto stop / start cutting in and out!

[Squiggs]

red said:

Really why?
What are the chances of being hit at the rear by another vehicle?
Wouldn't you want to be ready to get out of their way rather than sitting waiting to be hit with your fingers crossed.
Having your handbrake on will not stop your vehicle being moved forward, as a vehicle brakes the weight is thrown forward and most likely lift the rear of you vehicle, enough that the wheels can lose grip with the road, depending on the impact speed.

So you're in town at a junction sitting at the back of a queue at a set of red lights
There's on coming traffic on your right and railings on the edge of he path to your left - you've got no escape route.
The next car to join the queue is closing on you just a bit too quickly to the point that it's going to hit you from behind.

How exactly are you ever going to be ready to get out of their way?
Have you got a car with big blades on the roof and a gear that you can leave it in to engage emergency hover mode?

Or would you (and others around you) be safer if you had your hand brake on?


In the situation above the first thing that happens if you're hit from behind (unless your really braced, with your foot firmly on the brake pedal and ready for the impact) is that your feet come off the pedals, and so the rear car hits the next, which hits the next, which hits the next .
Many, many domino effect shunts could be avoided if hand brakes were applied.

[850R]

I've read the replies and not sure I've misread. It's always handbrake and then into neutral, not the other way round I know on an IAM or any other test you would be marked down for doing it in any other order, I always advice my 1-1s this. For stopping for any period of delayed time at traffic lights etc always pop the handbrake on and into neutral, leaving Tarmac and tyres, it costs nothing to do this.

If you are first in line get it into gear earlier so you aren't rushing to get things done, looking for the linked observations of light sequence and taking your lead from that, if you are further back you have plenty of time to get things sorted, it's also nice practice not to have the brake lights illuminated in the face of the driver behind, simple
I know and some may think who cares what the driver behind thinks, also if you are on a full commentary drive test etc it's nice to actually take a breather for even if just 20 seconds, believe me on a masters course you will want all the rest period you can!!

[waremark]

850R said:

...if you are further back you have plenty of time to get things sorted, it's also nice practice not to have the brake lights illuminated in the face of the driver behind, simple
I know and some may think who cares what the driver behind thinks, also if you are on a full commentary drive test etc it's nice to actually take a breather for even if just 20 seconds, believe me on a masters course you will want all the rest period you can!!

But ... continue to show brake lights until you are satisfied that the situation behind is stable. Commentary:

"Continuing to show brake lights until there are several vehicles stopped behind, looking for an emergency route. Now stable behind, looking for clues the lights may be about to change." In the old days of lots of dials and fewer warning systems in cars, the commentary was "taking the opportunity to check the instruments ".

[Pica-Pica]

waremark said:

850R said:

...if you are further back you have plenty of time to get things sorted, it's also nice practice not to have the brake lights illuminated in the face of the driver behind, simple
I know and some may think who cares what the driver behind thinks, also if you are on a full commentary drive test etc it's nice to actually take a breather for even if just 20 seconds, believe me on a masters course you will want all the rest period you can!!

But ... continue to show brake lights until you are satisfied that the situation behind is stable. Commentary:

"Continuing to show brake lights until there are several vehicles stopped behind, looking for an emergency route. Now stable behind, looking for clues the lights may be about to change." In the old days of lots of dials and fewer warning systems in cars, the commentary was "taking the opportunity to check the instruments ".

In general, in town there is not enough time to comment on all hazards! The issue is do you comment on the main, prioritised hazards, or on the more subtle, less obvious hazards?

[Dr Jekyll]

Pica-Pica said:

In general, in town there is not enough time to comment on all hazards! The issue is do you comment on the main, prioritised hazards, or on the more subtle, less obvious hazards?

Some would say that if there isn't time to comment on all hazards you're going too fast. More realistically, perhaps group them together into general hazards, 'activity in the layby in front of the shops' etc.

[WilliamWoollard]

850R said:

I've read the replies and not sure I've misread. It's always handbrake and then into neutral, not the other way round I know on an IAM or any other test you would be marked down for doing it in any other order...

Except you won't.

[mawallace]

waremark said:

But ... continue to show brake lights until you are satisfied that the situation behind is stable. Commentary:

"Continuing to show brake lights until there are several vehicles stopped behind, looking for an emergency route. Now stable behind, looking for clues the lights may be about to change." In the old days of lots of dials and fewer warning systems in cars, the commentary was "taking the opportunity to check the instruments ".

I discovered an issue with my Golf. When you pull up at a junction the auto handbrake comes on - fine but after a couple of years I had it pointed out that the rear brake lights were blinding the driver behind!

[Pica-Pica]

Dr Jekyll said:

Pica-Pica said:

In general, in town there is not enough time to comment on all hazards! The issue is do you comment on the main, prioritised hazards, or on the more subtle, less obvious hazards?

Some would say that if there isn't time to comment on all hazards you're going too fast. More realistically, perhaps group them together into general hazards, 'activity in the layby in front of the shops' etc.

No. You can observe, think and rank hazards in your brain quicker than you can verbalize them. (Some would say that if you are talking about the ones you have just seen, you are missing the ones coming up.😊)

[cmaguire]

The Dangerous Elk said:

As noted above, not destroying your ankle for a start, and yes, it will stop it "running away" if you are hit.

If somebody hits you hard enough from behind to destroy your ankle then you've got bigger problems than whether your handbrake was on.

[cmaguire]

And I feel a lot of sympathy for all the clutch release bearings.

And who the hell 'coasts' that isn't an idiot?

[The Dangerous Elk]

cmaguire said:

If somebody hits you hard enough from behind to destroy your ankle then you've got bigger problems than whether your handbrake was on.

Rubbish, an extended foot/knee can cause a fracture as the forces are transferred via the talus and to some extent the navicular and cuboid, this often causes compressive fractures to the talus which is particularly unpleasant. It does not take much force to destroy that joint if said load is applied with the foot "out of position" and the leg braced by the strong leg muscles.

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Saturday 24th March 19:40

[waremark]

cmaguire said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

As noted above, not destroying your ankle for a start, and yes, it will stop it "running away" if you are hit.

If somebody hits you hard enough from behind to destroy your ankle then you've got bigger problems than whether your handbrake was on.

Is your ankle actually at risk in any way from being hit from behind? In this thread I have also read that your foot is liable to come off the clutch if hit from behind. Which one is it, it doesn't make sense for it to be both, and is either actually a factor?

In my opinion there is no strong case for any one method of securing the car, and I decide on comfort factors and how much warning I expect to get of needing to move off. In cars with a brake hold feature during the daytime I take advantage of it. In cars which roll back when transitioning from foot brake to handbrake I try to avoid the roll back - so the handbrake does not come into play in the hill restart. In cars with an awkward handbrake I am less likely to use it (Aston has it on the right hand side, putting the car into first gear with my left hand, and using the handbrake with my right is an awkward shuffle).