Stationary in gear

[Dangerous Dan]

Evanivitch said:

When I learnt 10 years ago I was told by the instructor to have handbrake on, 1st gear and clutch depressed.

I am fairly sure the main reason why that's taught is so learners don't get flustered when they "react" to the lights change and then have to fumble with finding 1st whilst Captain impatient is behind leaning on the horn because you didn't move off 0.05 seconds after the green light illuminated.

When a pause becomes a wait, handbrake + neutral. That's what I was taught, and that's what I do/recommend. Look far enough ahead so you can set clutch/gear in preparation for moving off.

[Harji]

In my manual car, its neutral and handbrake, in my auto its neutral and electric handbrake.

[watchnut]

For the OP

I am an ADI, I teach to stop using footbrake, once stopped handbrake on, gear to neutral, feet off pedals. look in rear view mirror, check car behind is slowing if concerned reapply brake pedal....pulsing to show car is stopped...especially if sun on rear of car and brake lights not clear to see.

It is poor driving to sit in gear for maybe 2 minutes at lights in gear....what if learner forgets in gear?.....foot comes off...car jumps forwards...stall = driving fault

If in gear "stop/start" not activated therefore harm to environment (and ADI's fuel consumption) (some level crossing and lights now say to turn off engine....so are you going to stay in gear then?

As mentioned before it is courtesy to remove foot from brake so driver behind not being blinded (merc drivers note!)

I have argued before on keeping car in gear....it's poor driving causes more wear on clutch etc.... My Mini has 127k on clock still on first clutch....bet his driving instructors will not last that long!

Ask the "What if? "what if in queue of traffic, your in gear, foot on clutch....you get shunted, foot comes of clutch, other foot over gas pedal....gets pushed down....car moves forward at speed and hits pedestrian crushing them between your car and one in front.....injuries would be worse than if handbrake applied....and in court you would have a better chance of not being at fault.....not all keep the foot on the brake....they sometimes balance car on a bite, making this a dodgy thing to do especially at pedestrian crossings

[waremark]

watchnut said:

For the OP

As mentioned before it is courtesy to remove foot from brake so driver behind not being blinded (merc drivers note!)

Explain the reference to Merc drivers? Are you referring to use of the Merc brake hold system, which is very convenient to use but which does leave the brake lights shining? In Mercs with foot applied parking brakes, the parking brakes are so inconvenient to use that they are really not suitable for short waits, and I am sure Merc do not expect them to be used other than for parking, if at all. Various brands now offer brake hold systems with different methods of operation - I think they generally leave the brake lights shining. As a driver who is not at all bothered by brake lights, but who does find other lights sources blinding, I am mystified that anyone can drive at night if brake lights are a problem to them.

Do you think electrically operated parking brakes stand up to frequent use?

[simoid]

Brake lights get me. Maybe I’m relatively more sensitive to red than you?

I do notice Mercs doing it (more often than not in actual fact). I’d assumed it was mainly due to automatic models being more popular, or perhaps they have slightly brighter lights or something.

[waremark]

simoid said:

Brake lights get me. Maybe I’m relatively more sensitive to red than you?

I do notice Mercs doing it (more often than not in actual fact). I’d assumed it was mainly due to automatic models being more popular, or perhaps they have slightly brighter lights or something.

Yes, I think most auto drivers keep their foot on the footbrake. For Mercs, they probably use the brake hold feature (if they know about it, which not all Merc owners do!).

[simoid]

My old man has a beemer with the 8 speed (ZF?) auto ‘box. If you stop with footbrake on, engine cuts out. Pull on manual handbrake and put it in neutral, the engine comes back on again though I put it in Park at red lights so the engine stays off til I need it. Not sure if it’s the textbook thing to do or otherwise.

[pete757]

What is wrong with simply having the car in neutral with the footbrake applied!?

When it's time to go, into gear and 'heel/toe' away so you don't roll back. Additionally so many newer cars now also have the 'hill hold' function so they wont roll back for a few seconds anyway.

I see the handbrake at a junction having the potential to cause issues, especially if you can see in the rear view mirror that the guy behind you is probably not going to stop. Just drop it into gear and 'heel/toe' away without having to take the time to also then release the hand brake?

If you drive an 'auto' you hold it with the footbrake, rather than coming to a stop, applying the park brake, selecting 'P' (Park), then undoing all of this when it's time to move on...

[simoid]

Brake lights dazzle drivers is one courteous reason to use handbrake. Also handbrake on means the vehicle is less likely to get shunted forward in the event of an impact.

In the Beemer I can get from P and handbrake on to rolling in less than a second I think.

[Hogstar]

pete757 said:

What is wrong with simply having the car in neutral with the footbrake applied!?

When it's time to go, into gear and 'heel/toe' away so you don't roll back. Additionally so many newer cars now also have the 'hill hold' function so they wont roll back for a few seconds anyway.

I see the handbrake at a junction having the potential to cause issues, especially if you can see in the rear view mirror that the guy behind you is probably not going to stop. Just drop it into gear and 'heel/toe' away without having to take the time to also then release the hand brake?

If you drive an 'auto' you hold it with the footbrake, rather than coming to a stop, applying the park brake, selecting 'P' (Park), then undoing all of this when it's time to move on...

Because as people have said the dazzle of brake lights can be uncomfortable for the driver behind (only really applicable to the driver stopped directly behind, (would be safer to show brake lights if something was approaching at speed to show that you were slowing or stopped).
But for me the main reason for handbrake rather than footbrake is that if shunted from behind your foot will come off the footbrake and you will travel much further than if the handbrake were applied, potentially into the car in front or worse into a lane of moving traffic.

[watchnut]

Just because someone is not bothered by brake lights on in front of them, does not mean that it does not bother others, those of us who are blinded by the inconsiderate in front are really sorry for our obvious failings as human beings in not being supermen/women, driving superior vehicles, and not having eyesight that is advanced enough to "filter" out the brightness, and arrogance of the arse in front whose attitude is "I'm all right Jack!"

My original post was just a bit of light humour, (in regards to Merc drivers....maybe I should extend that to Audi, BMW, Volvo and any other car marc that promotes drivers to be lazy or have design flaws for when following drivers/road users may be blinded/discomforted by stationary unneeded brake light illumination) Some of us, who try to be vehicle sympathetic, and also to other road users will continue to "secure" the car at lights/stationary, and take that extra 1 or 2 seconds to get the car restarted and away....after all...very often the numpty sat with his foot on his brake is no quicker at moving off cause he/she is likely to be playing with the phone or admiring themselves in the rear view mirror to notice that everyone else is waiting for them to "Get on with it!"

[simoid]

[captain_cynic]

watchnut said:

Just because someone is not bothered by brake lights on in front of them, does not mean that it does not bother others, those of us who are blinded by the inconsiderate in front are really sorry for our obvious failings as human beings in not being supermen/women, driving superior vehicles, and not having eyesight that is advanced enough to "filter" out the brightness, and arrogance of the arse in front whose attitude is "I'm all right Jack!"

So you're saying that someone's eyesight cannot handle contrast and the person with the brakes on is the arrogant arse?

If brake lights are "blinding" you, your eyesight is not good enough to be on the road. You're putting other road users and pedestrians in danger, do the right thing and hand your license into the DVLA.

Yes, I'm going to continue to sit with my foot on the brakes because I'm too considerate to become a roadblock at a green light because I've put the handbrake on and fallen asleep.

[The Dangerous Elk]

captain_cynic said:

So you're saying that someone's eyesight cannot handle contrast and the person with the brakes on is the arrogant arse? He did not, and yes you are

If brake lights are "blinding" you, your eyesight is not good enough to be on the road. You're putting other road users and pedestrians in danger, do the right thing and hand your license into the DVLA. blinding covers the spectrum, not being able to see jack st--2--not being comfortable. You KNOW he is talking about the uncomfortable.

Yes, I'm going to continue to sit with my foot on the brakes because I'm too considerate to become a roadblock at a green light because I've put the handbrake on and fallen asleep.

I am sure you will

[captain_cynic]

The Dangerous Elk said:

captain_cynic said:

So you're saying that someone's eyesight cannot handle contrast and the person with the brakes on is the arrogant arse?

He did not, and yes you are

Yes he did and you know I'm not. If you're being "blinded" or even "made uncomfortable" by brake lights, your vision is not good enough to drive. Putting others at risk with your substandard eyesight is the very definition of "arrogant arse".

The Dangerous Elk said:

captain_cynic said:

If brake lights are "blinding" you, your eyesight is not good enough to be on the road. You're putting other road users and pedestrians in danger, do the right thing and hand your license into the DVLA.

blinding covers the spectrum, not being able to see jack st--2--not being comfortable. You KNOW he is talking about the uncomfortable.

Erm no. Blinding does not cover the "spectrum" because that statement does not make snese. I think you need to learn what the EM spectrum is, because visible light is a very small part of it.

And if the light from a brake light is making them "uncomfortable" to the point where they're using the pejorative "blinded" then they have an issue with their eyes and should be off the road... or are just moaning gits and should get over it.

The Dangerous Elk said:

captain_cynic said:

Yes, I'm going to continue to sit with my foot on the brakes because I'm too considerate to become a roadblock at a green light because I've put the handbrake on and fallen asleep.

I am sure you will

Damn right... Because nothing says "I a giant knob" like sitting stationary at a green light because resting your foot on a brake pedal is too hard for you and I have too much sympathy for my fellow motorist.

And finally, if you cant quote properly, don't try to quote at all.

[simoid]

I don’t think there’s any need to resort to insults or the like.

Obviously there’s a fair amount of exaggeration with “blinding” etc, but I certainly find it uncomfortable to be sitting behind a car with brake lights on for sometimes the best part of a minute. As I said it seems to be Mercs regularly. I have to look away which is an inconvenience.

I’d suggest that sitting with brake lights showing in traffic light queues at night is not the most courteous course of action - and an alternative solution would be to use a permanent brake and pay attention to the traffic light sequence to minimise the chance of spending unnecessary time stationary.

One might say if you can’t get your car rolling from a secured position in <3 seconds you should hand your licence in

[dhutch]

GIYess said:

When I passed my test around 10yrs ago it was a very definite minor if you coasted any distance. I also was taught to put handbrake on/out of gear if stopped for more than a couple of seconds.

Not good in my estimation as any number of things could go wrong (e.g foot slipping off clutch/forgetting that it was in gear.)

This. Passed in 2005, driving instructor taught driving instructors.

Daniel

[waremark]

GIYess said:

When I passed my test around 10yrs ago...

Driving instructors teach in a way designed to protect against the sort of errors novices are liable to make. Different factors may apply for experienced drivers.

[waremark]

simoid said:

As I said it seems to be Mercs regularly. I have to look away which is an inconvenience.

I’d suggest that sitting with brake lights showing in traffic light queues at night is not the most courteous course of action - and an alternative solution would be to use a permanent brake ...

Mercedes presumably believe that safety and convenience are maximised by providing a 'permanent brake ' solution which leaves the brake lights illuminated - the brake hold feature which I have mentioned previously. Perhaps the risk of being rear ended due to not showing brake lights outweighs the discomfort of the driver immediately behind.

[mawallace]

waremark said:

Mercedes presumably believe that safety and convenience are maximised by providing a 'permanent brake ' solution which leaves the brake lights illuminated - the brake hold feature which I have mentioned previously. Perhaps the risk of being rear ended due to not showing brake lights outweighs the discomfort of the driver immediately behind.

It's not just Mercedes - my VW Golf does the same thing. Brake lights on with parking brake on auto hold whenever car goes to a standstill. TO overide this you have to move the auto brake into park position!