Overtaking on dual carriageway when car pulls out from side

Overtaking on dual carriageway when car pulls out from side

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DannyT1985

Original Poster:

13 posts

68 months

Friday 13th July 2018
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On my commute this morning, I was travelling in the outside lane of a dual carriageway (where this particular part did not have separation between the two directions) overtaking stationary/slow moving traffic. As I approached the exit to a petrol station on my left, a car exiting and wanting to turn right was let out by a truck and instead of inching forward so that I could see the car coming and stop if I had time, it went halfway into my lane leaving me no choice but to swerve and narrowly miss.

Although this was a near miss, I am interested to double check that if there had been an RTA, would they have been 100% at fault? I have read the case of Powell V Moody where the overtaking motorcyclist was found to be 80% at fault but this is slightly different in that it was on a dual carriageway.

For context, it was a 40mph limit and I was travelling at that.

DannyT1985

Original Poster:

13 posts

68 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
This is the junction, I was heading south west out of York towards A64: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.9282795,-1.11674...

Pica-Pica

13,621 posts

83 months

Friday 13th July 2018
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Not a dual-carriageway then, if no separation. Next question.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
Never mind the liability, or inability to count carriageways... just think defensively.

You were doing 40 past stationary traffic queueing next to a petrol station exit, you could see that a truck had left a gap for the exit... and you were surprised when somebody nosed out of it...?

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

260 months

Friday 13th July 2018
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If the OP was in a lane for his direction of travel, then I don't think the question of single vs dual carriageway is relevant. If he was using the opposite side of the road then the driver pulling out should still have looked, but the OP should have anticipated that he wouldn't. If he wasn't then far less blame attaches to the OP.

Mandat

3,879 posts

237 months

Friday 13th July 2018
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DannyT1985 said:
This is the junction, I was heading south west out of York towards A64: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.9282795,-1.11674...
Based on the road layout, common sense would dictate that they shouldn't be turning right out of the petrol station, specifically for the reasons that you have encountered.

wazztie16

1,469 posts

130 months

Friday 13th July 2018
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Mandat said:
DannyT1985 said:
This is the junction, I was heading south west out of York towards A64: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.9282795,-1.11674...
Based on the road layout, common sense would dictate that they shouldn't be turning right out of the petrol station, specifically for the reasons that you have encountered.
Not particularly clued up on it, but also the solid white line, no right turn?

DannyT1985

Original Poster:

13 posts

68 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
Never mind the liability, or inability to count carriageways... just think defensively.

You were doing 40 past stationary traffic queueing next to a petrol station exit, you could see that a truck had left a gap for the exit... and you were surprised when somebody nosed out of it...?
I did not see that the truck had left the gap, I only realised subsequently this happened. Also, the gap was only left at the point the traffic in front started moving. The car didn't nose out, half the car length was across my lane.

DannyT1985

Original Poster:

13 posts

68 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
If the OP was in a lane for his direction of travel, then I don't think the question of single vs dual carriageway is relevant. If he was using the opposite side of the road then the driver pulling out should still have looked, but the OP should have anticipated that he wouldn't. If he wasn't then far less blame attaches to the OP.
Thank you, as I thought.

DannyT1985

Original Poster:

13 posts

68 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
Mandat said:
DannyT1985 said:
This is the junction, I was heading south west out of York towards A64: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.9282795,-1.11674...
Based on the road layout, common sense would dictate that they shouldn't be turning right out of the petrol station, specifically for the reasons that you have encountered.
I agree, particularly as there is a junction further up the road where U-turns are permitted.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
If the OP was in a lane for his direction of travel, then I don't think the question of single vs dual carriageway is relevant. If he was using the opposite side of the road then the driver pulling out should still have looked, but the OP should have anticipated that he wouldn't. If he wasn't then far less blame attaches to the OP.
The petrol station was on his left.

Pica-Pica

13,621 posts

83 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
If the difference between single and dual carriageway is not understood, then I would question what other gaps in knowledge and experience are missing.

So, forgetting carriageways, there is a significant lack of observation skills and experience.
1j truck stopping - not noticed
2) fuel station on left (or anything with an entry and exit) = hazard
3) car preparing to actually leave said fuel station - unobserved (as a hazard)
4) generally going along with tunnel vision.
5) even if ‘no right turn’ sign at exit, eople regularly make that sort of move, because people just do.

Advanced driving section. Suggestion, advanced driving course.

Who is to blame will be irrelevant to a severely injured party, defensive driving is the key here.

Looking after yourself, is not the same as only thinking about yourself.

DannyT1985

Original Poster:

13 posts

68 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
Pica-Pica said:
If the difference between single and dual carriageway is not understood, then I would question what other gaps in knowledge and experience are missing.

So, forgetting carriageways, there is a significant lack of observation skills and experience.
1j truck stopping - not noticed
2) fuel station on left (or anything with an entry and exit) = hazard
3) car preparing to actually leave said fuel station - unobserved (as a hazard)
4) generally going along with tunnel vision.
5) even if ‘no right turn’ sign at exit, eople regularly make that sort of move, because people just do.

Advanced driving section. Suggestion, advanced driving course.

Who is to blame will be irrelevant to a severely injured party, defensive driving is the key here.

Looking after yourself, is not the same as only thinking about yourself.
As mentioned above, the whole queue of vehicles was stationary with no gaps, the gap was only created due to the truck not moving along with the rest of the queue, which for all I knew, meant he was just slow to react to the moving traffic. The car was blocked from my vision by the truck.

Experience is C 190k miles over my driving life, including 20k miles/year for the last 6 years. No RTA's or points.

Taglioni

71 posts

69 months

Friday 13th July 2018
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Is that 190k miles experience or 190 miles repeated a thousand times? Big difference

The post above raises some valid points about defensive driving, accountability and observational skills - “forming a plan” in AD parlance

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
DannyT1985 said:
As mentioned above, the whole queue of vehicles was stationary with no gaps, the gap was only created due to the truck not moving along with the rest of the queue, which for all I knew, meant he was just slow to react to the moving traffic. The car was blocked from my vision by the truck.
But the petrol station wasn't. And that should have been a very big clue.

DannyT1985

Original Poster:

13 posts

68 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
DannyT1985 said:
As mentioned above, the whole queue of vehicles was stationary with no gaps, the gap was only created due to the truck not moving along with the rest of the queue, which for all I knew, meant he was just slow to react to the moving traffic. The car was blocked from my vision by the truck.
But the petrol station wasn't. And that should have been a very big clue.
Best point of the thread - noted.

Graveworm

8,476 posts

70 months

Friday 13th July 2018
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You didn't hit anything so it could be you just had to use all of your safety margin. However it's what you can't see that will kill you. I am a big fan of getting and maintaining a view. There had to be an ingress/egress from that station, the lorry blocking the view might have caused a spin of the wheel. On that road layout, passing a stationary queue of traffic at 40mph with entrances and exits is potentially too high a speed differential. People stuck in traffic have a habit of pulling out and doing U turns without taking enough care.

Mandat

3,879 posts

237 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
DannyT1985 said:
For context, it was a 40mph limit and I was travelling at that.
If you are overtaking stationary traffic with a 40mph speed differential, then that doesn't sound particularly safe or appropriate, particularly due to the risk of traffic emerging from side turnings, fuel stations, etc precisely in the manner that you experienced.

Whatever mistakes the other driver made in trying to turn right where they did, you should have a hard think about how you need to improve your own driving style to avoid becoming a part of someone's accident in the future.

Pica-Pica

13,621 posts

83 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
DannyT1985 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
DannyT1985 said:
As mentioned above, the whole queue of vehicles was stationary with no gaps, the gap was only created due to the truck not moving along with the rest of the queue, which for all I knew, meant he was just slow to react to the moving traffic. The car was blocked from my vision by the truck.
But the petrol station wasn't. And that should have been a very big clue.
Best point of the thread - noted.
I thought I said that! Fuel station = hazard
With 190k miles, you should have racked up enough experience to recognise that, surely?

Tiggsy

10,261 posts

251 months

Wednesday 25th July 2018
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Looks an odd place to allow cars to turn right out of that garage.