How do you know how quick you can take a corner?

[Piersman2]

beerexpressman said:

Piersman2 said:

Apply the same principle as they used to use when building bridges. Build bridge, drive increasingly heavier things across until collapses. Rebuild bridge and put a sign on it limiting weight to slightly less than vehicle that broke it.

So to answer your question directly. Keep driving around the bend faster and faster each time. When you crash, take a note of the speed you were going and then make sure in future to keep slightly below that speed.

HTH.

Calvin and Hobbes fan by any chance?

Very much so.

[waremark]

Kawasicki said:

waremark said:

If you are talking about road driving, how do you use that information? You are not about to drive round the same bend again.

I agree. The road changes constantly, the car too...to a lesser degree.

.........

Great answer. How did you develop your skills?

[beerexpressman]

Piersman2 said:

beerexpressman said:

Piersman2 said:

Apply the same principle as they used to use when building bridges. Build bridge, drive increasingly heavier things across until collapses. Rebuild bridge and put a sign on it limiting weight to slightly less than vehicle that broke it.

So to answer your question directly. Keep driving around the bend faster and faster each time. When you crash, take a note of the speed you were going and then make sure in future to keep slightly below that speed.

HTH.

Calvin and Hobbes fan by any chance?

Very much so.

Same here. Quality!

[Kawasicki]

waremark said:

Kawasicki said:

waremark said:

If you are talking about road driving, how do you use that information? You are not about to drive round the same bend again.

I agree. The road changes constantly, the car too...to a lesser degree.

.........

Great answer. How did you develop your skills?

Thanks!

I was an enthusiastic driver as a kid. In my early twenties I did a huge amount of driver training. I got good enough that I then picked jobs where I would drive in one day at the limit more than most do in a lifetime. Each job was (and is) massively involved with limit driving, but each job also with a different focus. Sometimes I had two jobs at once! I have been lucky to land the jobs, but one leads to the other and I was also careful to not damage my reputation as a safe driver at the limit. So, I sometimes hold back...more than some driving enthusiasts would think necessary, but the opposite is also true... My aim is to avoid surprises, and to be prepared for them at all times. That has worked great for me.

[RobM77]

Kawasicki said:

waremark said:

Kawasicki said:

waremark said:

If you are talking about road driving, how do you use that information? You are not about to drive round the same bend again.

I agree. The road changes constantly, the car too...to a lesser degree.

.........

Great answer. How did you develop your skills?

Thanks!

I was an enthusiastic driver as a kid. In my early twenties I did a huge amount of driver training. I got good enough that I then picked jobs where I would drive in one day at the limit more than most do in a lifetime. Each job was (and is) massively involved with limit driving, but each job also with a different focus. Sometimes I had two jobs at once! I have been lucky to land the jobs, but one leads to the other and I was also careful to not damage my reputation as a safe driver at the limit. So, I sometimes hold back...more than some driving enthusiasts would think necessary, but the opposite is also true... My aim is to avoid surprises, and to be prepared for them at all times. That has worked great for me.

I reckon the most obvious sign that a driver isn't experienced at car control and/or driving fast is that they drive too slow in the dry, but too fast in the wet, their level of safety varies according to the conditions. As I've said many times on here (and bizarrely been criticised for doing so), you need to know where something is in order to avoid it. Having a very clear idea in one's head of how much grip a tyre has is, I believe, the best way to drive at a respectful distance from that point.

To expand on my initial point, what I notice with drivers who aren't experienced at car control and/or driving fast is not just that they drive too fast in the wet and too slow in the dry, it's that their distance from the point where things get tricky varies all the time - on one corner they may be close to that line, and on others further from it, with no apparent reason (like reasons to be extra cautious learnt through observation). Likewise, they may have the front wheels close to that point, but the back wheels not, and vice versa. This 'limit blindness' worries me when I passenger with people. When someone gets it right though, it's extremely reassuring.

[Kawasicki]

I was driving in the Austrian alps in a group. As the altitude increased there was more and more fine gravel on the road. A small patch of fine gravel is fine to drive over..the car will momentarily lose grip and regain it, with an offset from the original line obviously. I started to slow...as the patches were growing in size. The car in front of me started to pull away. I came round a corner and the car in front had slid off the road on a huge patch of gravel, it was sitting against a tree on a steep descent, it was fairly well bent. The driver was fine, he was surprised with how slowly I had come around the gravel covered corner.

So, a good story, eh? A bit boring, too. Obvious. The thing is...in reality you sometimes don't know what is at, or around, the next corner. You are fooling yourself if you think you do. Sometimes there is simply no warning, no pattern to recognise. This is why, despite my big talk of lots of time at the limit, I stick to using my eyes...driving for what I can see.

Then the whole grey area starts of how does one balance the risk of the unknown with the wish to make progress. I might not fully support the "Drive to Stop Safely within the Distance You Can See to Be Clear " brigade....but the sentiment is a very good one.

[RobM77]

I agree entirely. This is why we have to have a safety margin.

I used all mine last week for the first time - I was on a rollercoaster section of road that I commute on daily, approaching a tight blind bend on a rise, and I came up the rise and turned into the tight bend to find a police-car parked right at the apex in the middle of the road because someone had gone into the hedge. That crashed car had slipped on some oil and spun off. I then tried to brake to a standstill on that oil I was very grateful for my safety margin!

[akirk]

RobM77 said:

I reckon the most obvious sign that a driver isn't experienced at car control and/or driving fast is that they drive too slow in the dry, but too fast in the wet, their level of safety varies according to the conditions. As I've said many times on here (and bizarrely been criticised for doing so), you need to know where something is in order to avoid it. Having a very clear idea in one's head of how much grip a tyre has is, I believe, the best way to drive at a respectful distance from that point.

I agree that you want to drive at a respectful distance from the limit - but with most modern cars - you are driving at a respectful distance from the limit of observation more than the limit of the car / tyres. Anyone who has taken their car to do limit handling in it will know the vast capability of most modern cars, way beyond that which can be exploited on the road. My recent day of car skills at MB World (AMG cars) demonstrated how utterly competent and amazing they are - my nerve / my observation / the ability to drive alongside others - will all reduce my speed way below what the car and its tyres can cope with... in fact you can shred the tyres and the car will still handle well - so I don't think that tyres are the right metric...

I therefore think that for 99% of people there is absolutely no need to know / understand the limits of their tyres - unless they drive with bald tyres - to even suggest approaching the limit of the tyres is I suspect to have gone wrong / way too fast, well before that point...

[RobM77]

akirk said:

RobM77 said:

I reckon the most obvious sign that a driver isn't experienced at car control and/or driving fast is that they drive too slow in the dry, but too fast in the wet, their level of safety varies according to the conditions. As I've said many times on here (and bizarrely been criticised for doing so), you need to know where something is in order to avoid it. Having a very clear idea in one's head of how much grip a tyre has is, I believe, the best way to drive at a respectful distance from that point.

I agree that you want to drive at a respectful distance from the limit - but with most modern cars - you are driving at a respectful distance from the limit of observation more than the limit of the car / tyres. Anyone who has taken their car to do limit handling in it will know the vast capability of most modern cars, way beyond that which can be exploited on the road. My recent day of car skills at MB World (AMG cars) demonstrated how utterly competent and amazing they are - my nerve / my observation / the ability to drive alongside others - will all reduce my speed way below what the car and its tyres can cope with... in fact you can shred the tyres and the car will still handle well - so I don't think that tyres are the right metric...

I therefore think that for 99% of people there is absolutely no need to know / understand the limits of their tyres - unless they drive with bald tyres - to even suggest approaching the limit of the tyres is I suspect to have gone wrong / way too fast, well before that point...

Those are fairly high performance AMG Mercs though. The average person on a wet autumnal road in a normal family car is driving surprisingly close to the limit of adhesion in places.

[soupdragon1]

RobM77 said:

akirk said:

RobM77 said:

I reckon the most obvious sign that a driver isn't experienced at car control and/or driving fast is that they drive too slow in the dry, but too fast in the wet, their level of safety varies according to the conditions. As I've said many times on here (and bizarrely been criticised for doing so), you need to know where something is in order to avoid it. Having a very clear idea in one's head of how much grip a tyre has is, I believe, the best way to drive at a respectful distance from that point.

I agree that you want to drive at a respectful distance from the limit - but with most modern cars - you are driving at a respectful distance from the limit of observation more than the limit of the car / tyres. Anyone who has taken their car to do limit handling in it will know the vast capability of most modern cars, way beyond that which can be exploited on the road. My recent day of car skills at MB World (AMG cars) demonstrated how utterly competent and amazing they are - my nerve / my observation / the ability to drive alongside others - will all reduce my speed way below what the car and its tyres can cope with... in fact you can shred the tyres and the car will still handle well - so I don't think that tyres are the right metric...

I therefore think that for 99% of people there is absolutely no need to know / understand the limits of their tyres - unless they drive with bald tyres - to even suggest approaching the limit of the tyres is I suspect to have gone wrong / way too fast, well before that point...

Those are fairly high performance AMG Mercs though. The average person on a wet autumnal road in a normal family car is driving surprisingly close to the limit of adhesion in places.

I had wheel spin a couple of times this morning from a standing start - just after dropping my son off at the bus stop this morning was one. Didn't even plant the throttle or anything - just that particular area has a high tree density and in the wet, with residue from leaves, grip is very little, not too unlike icy conditions.

I agree with akirk in the main though. I don't know what roads you guys have access to, but I think its quite rare to find a corner that has sufficient bend and sufficient visibility to get anywhere near to testing the cars limits. The odd good roundabout is about as good as it gets where I live.

[akirk]

soupdragon1 said:

RobM77 said:

akirk said:

RobM77 said:

I reckon the most obvious sign that a driver isn't experienced at car control and/or driving fast is that they drive too slow in the dry, but too fast in the wet, their level of safety varies according to the conditions. As I've said many times on here (and bizarrely been criticised for doing so), you need to know where something is in order to avoid it. Having a very clear idea in one's head of how much grip a tyre has is, I believe, the best way to drive at a respectful distance from that point.

I agree that you want to drive at a respectful distance from the limit - but with most modern cars - you are driving at a respectful distance from the limit of observation more than the limit of the car / tyres. Anyone who has taken their car to do limit handling in it will know the vast capability of most modern cars, way beyond that which can be exploited on the road. My recent day of car skills at MB World (AMG cars) demonstrated how utterly competent and amazing they are - my nerve / my observation / the ability to drive alongside others - will all reduce my speed way below what the car and its tyres can cope with... in fact you can shred the tyres and the car will still handle well - so I don't think that tyres are the right metric...

I therefore think that for 99% of people there is absolutely no need to know / understand the limits of their tyres - unless they drive with bald tyres - to even suggest approaching the limit of the tyres is I suspect to have gone wrong / way too fast, well before that point...

Those are fairly high performance AMG Mercs though. The average person on a wet autumnal road in a normal family car is driving surprisingly close to the limit of adhesion in places.

I had wheel spin a couple of times this morning from a standing start - just after dropping my son off at the bus stop this morning was one. Didn't even plant the throttle or anything - just that particular area has a high tree density and in the wet, with residue from leaves, grip is very little, not too unlike icy conditions.

I agree with akirk in the main though. I don't know what roads you guys have access to, but I think its quite rare to find a corner that has sufficient bend and sufficient visibility to get anywhere near to testing the cars limits. The odd good roundabout is about as good as it gets where I live.

Fair points - but those examples would still be about driving to the situation, not the tyres - so it should be the visual of wet leaves / knowledge of a damp autumn day that means the driver backs off - not knowing the adhesion of the tyres...

I guess it is a philosophical position - if you are basing your safety on the tyres, you are always taking the car to the edge of safety - and how do you judge that - 0% grip is here - my safety margin is 5% - so I will take the car to 5% grip? If so, that is to forget all the other factors that should influence your drive - the examples above about gravel, or coming to the brow of a hill to find spilled oil and a stationery police car - those scenarios need extra contingency - if you have been driving at the 95% you now no longer have that contingency - so the dominant deciding mechanism has to be observation / setting - not tyres. To my mind therefore, to encourage, or support a view that says you focus on tyre adhesion and knowing its parameters to decide how quickly you can drive around a corner, is to miss a large part of the thinking process...

as for the AMG cars - we were in an A class / C class / E class - but also an A180D which is a more standard car (manual for when needed) - all of them had fantastic grip - modern cars (which are the majority out there, and likely to be those driven by many who care about these things) really do have a lot more capability than we expect

[soupdragon1]

akirk said:

Fair points - but those examples would still be about driving to the situation, not the tyres - so it should be the visual of wet leaves / knowledge of a damp autumn day that means the driver backs off - not knowing the adhesion of the tyres...

I guess it is a philosophical position - if you are basing your safety on the tyres, you are always taking the car to the edge of safety - and how do you judge that - 0% grip is here - my safety margin is 5% - so I will take the car to 5% grip? If so, that is to forget all the other factors that should influence your drive - the examples above about gravel, or coming to the brow of a hill to find spilled oil and a stationery police car - those scenarios need extra contingency - if you have been driving at the 95% you now no longer have that contingency - so the dominant deciding mechanism has to be observation / setting - not tyres. To my mind therefore, to encourage, or support a view that says you focus on tyre adhesion and knowing its parameters to decide how quickly you can drive around a corner, is to miss a large part of the thinking process...

as for the AMG cars - we were in an A class / C class / E class - but also an A180D which is a more standard car (manual for when needed) - all of them had fantastic grip - modern cars (which are the majority out there, and likely to be those driven by many who care about these things) really do have a lot more capability than we expect

I'm not sure what you mean - I wasn't trying to find the limit, its a 30mph speed limit, on a straight road, in the middle of town with loads of traffic - I think I was doing 20mph as I approached a bus stop. Stopped, then drove off again and had wheel spin, despite the traction control. All I was saying was that Autumn leaves create really slippy roads!?

[RobM77]

soupdragon1 said:

RobM77 said:

akirk said:

RobM77 said:

I reckon the most obvious sign that a driver isn't experienced at car control and/or driving fast is that they drive too slow in the dry, but too fast in the wet, their level of safety varies according to the conditions. As I've said many times on here (and bizarrely been criticised for doing so), you need to know where something is in order to avoid it. Having a very clear idea in one's head of how much grip a tyre has is, I believe, the best way to drive at a respectful distance from that point.

I agree that you want to drive at a respectful distance from the limit - but with most modern cars - you are driving at a respectful distance from the limit of observation more than the limit of the car / tyres. Anyone who has taken their car to do limit handling in it will know the vast capability of most modern cars, way beyond that which can be exploited on the road. My recent day of car skills at MB World (AMG cars) demonstrated how utterly competent and amazing they are - my nerve / my observation / the ability to drive alongside others - will all reduce my speed way below what the car and its tyres can cope with... in fact you can shred the tyres and the car will still handle well - so I don't think that tyres are the right metric...

I therefore think that for 99% of people there is absolutely no need to know / understand the limits of their tyres - unless they drive with bald tyres - to even suggest approaching the limit of the tyres is I suspect to have gone wrong / way too fast, well before that point...

Those are fairly high performance AMG Mercs though. The average person on a wet autumnal road in a normal family car is driving surprisingly close to the limit of adhesion in places.

I had wheel spin a couple of times this morning from a standing start - just after dropping my son off at the bus stop this morning was one. Didn't even plant the throttle or anything - just that particular area has a high tree density and in the wet, with residue from leaves, grip is very little, not too unlike icy conditions.

I agree with akirk in the main though. I don't know what roads you guys have access to, but I think its quite rare to find a corner that has sufficient bend and sufficient visibility to get anywhere near to testing the cars limits. The odd good roundabout is about as good as it gets where I live.

I was referring to the average driver - as I said above they're driving too fast. In the same situation I'd be going a good bit slower in case I need to stop.

On your other point though, I do have a number of places on my commute where I have great visibility through sweeping bends. Two slip roads for example with S bends in them and clear sight, and two roundabouts with no trees, bushes etc. You're right though, such places are indeed rare. This is why I own a racing car and drive on tracks when I can.

[soupdragon1]

RobM77 said:

I was referring to the average driver - as I said above they're driving too fast. In the same situation I'd be going a good bit slower in case I need to stop.

On your other point though, I do have a number of places on my commute where I have great visibility through sweeping bends. Two slip roads for example with S bends in them and clear sight, and two roundabouts with no trees, bushes etc. You're right though, such places are indeed rare. This is why I own a racing car and drive on tracks when I can.

Fair point - I think I had interpreted it differently but yes, you did say about going slower when the situation demanded.

The best road I was ever on was in Scotland, Galloway area, no trees/bushes/shrubs lining the roads - just gorse, smooth tarmac, lots of bends and great visibility of the beyond and amazing scenery - with hardly another car in sight. Quite surreal to find yourself in that situation compared the day to day roads I find myself on at home.

[RobM77]

soupdragon1 said:

RobM77 said:

I was referring to the average driver - as I said above they're driving too fast. In the same situation I'd be going a good bit slower in case I need to stop.

On your other point though, I do have a number of places on my commute where I have great visibility through sweeping bends. Two slip roads for example with S bends in them and clear sight, and two roundabouts with no trees, bushes etc. You're right though, such places are indeed rare. This is why I own a racing car and drive on tracks when I can.

Fair point - I think I had interpreted it differently but yes, you did say about going slower when the situation demanded.

The best road I was ever on was in Scotland, Galloway area, no trees/bushes/shrubs lining the roads - just gorse, smooth tarmac, lots of bends and great visibility of the beyond and amazing scenery - with hardly another car in sight. Quite surreal to find yourself in that situation compared the day to day roads I find myself on at home.

That's precisely the point I was making. Most drivers seem to drive too fast in the wet, or when there are leaves, gravel, bad road surface etc, and too slow in the dry.


I love those sorts of roads like you describe We had many in Connemara last summer - amazing, even in a crappy hire car.

[waremark]

Kawasicki said:

Thanks!

I was an enthusiastic driver as a kid. In my early twenties I did a huge amount of driver training. I got good enough that I then picked jobs where I would drive in one day at the limit more than most do in a lifetime. Each job was (and is) massively involved with limit driving, but each job also with a different focus. Sometimes I had two jobs at once! I have been lucky to land the jobs, but one leads to the other and I was also careful to not damage my reputation as a safe driver at the limit. So, I sometimes hold back...more than some driving enthusiasts would think necessary, but the opposite is also true... My aim is to avoid surprises, and to be prepared for them at all times. That has worked great for me.

Great pedigree. I wish I had those skills. But this 'corner' of PH is mostly about road driving. Do you have a similar pedigree in advanced road driving?

[Kawasicki]

waremark said:

Great pedigree. I wish I had those skills. But this 'corner' of PH is mostly about road driving. Do you have a similar pedigree in advanced road driving?

Thanks! Regards advanced road driving...No, definitely not. I have done 3 advanced road driving courses. The first I paid for...was 1 day long...given by a police instructor. The other 2 were 2 days each, paid and run by my employers.

I know this corner is mostly road driving...but I find the lines are a lot more blurry between road and track than many think. I did a week long oversteer control course in the USA...the instructor spent the entire week telling me to look further ahead...he spent almost no time looking at anything except my eyes. I found it very interesting how that translates to safer road driving too, even though I already thought I looked far ahead.

[keith2.2]

An excellent rule of thumb is to work backwards using the mcrae mantra "If in doubt - flat out"

How far into the field did you roll last time?

For every car length / full roll - whichever is longer - reduce by 'a bit'. Adjust for road conditions and type of fence / hedge / wall was ploughed through if applicable.

Also try to focus on the traction circle when cornering - keep especially in mind that the traction circle is only relavent if one or more wheels is touching the ground. Relavence reduces exponentially with the reduction in number of wheels contacting the ground but it doesn't harm to evaluate real time where it might have gone awry.

It's also worth noting previous comments about observation of your eyes. Ask the passenger to commentate on how wide yours are with terror. It may be best to use some sort of notation based scale. NB: This works equally well when deciding whether or not you've fallen asleep.

[C&C]

I've not posted in this forum before, not done IAM test, but have done a few of the Carlimits days at North Weald and also Blyton, and generally enjoy driving and try to constantly improve with better observation, planning etc..

Whilst it's fine realising how quickly you can get round the 90 degree corner, then learning how to do it 15-20mph faster with some instruction from Andy, or learning an alternative approach to having to stop quickly in a corner, by far the biggest and most helpful lesson I learnt was on one of the days when it started to rain.

Someone earlier posted that the less able driver tends to drive too slowly in the dry, and too fast in the wet.

What shocked me this particular day was just how much loss of traction there was in the wet with my car, and although generally on the road, I do not get that close to the limits of the car in the dry, it really rammed home just how much that limit is reduced when it is wet, which has definitely caused me to re-assess the way I drive if I do end up driving in the rain (which is thankfully rare). The car isn't well suited to wet weather driving - semi slick tyres, lots of power to the rear wheels and no driver aids (not even ABS), but I'm much more confident that I have a good idea where the limit is, so have modified my approach accordingly.

I guess the point is that it can be very helpful doing days like the Carlimits, and other track days, where you become familiar with the car's performance and limits, so you are at least aware of roughly what they are, and can ensure you're not getting too near them when on the road.

[RobM77]

[quote=C&C]I've not posted in this forum before, not done IAM test, but have done a few of the Carlimits days at North Weald and also Blyton, and generally enjoy driving and try to constantly improve with better observation, planning etc..

Whilst it's fine realising how quickly you can get round the 90 degree corner, then learning how to do it 15-20mph faster with some instruction from Andy, or learning an alternative approach to having to stop quickly in a corner, by far the biggest and most helpful lesson I learnt was on one of the days when it started to rain.

Someone earlier posted that the less able driver tends to drive too slowly in the dry, and too fast in the wet.

What shocked me this particular day was just how much loss of traction there was in the wet with my car, and although generally on the road, I do not get that close to the limits of the car in the dry, it really rammed home just how much that limit is reduced when it is wet, which has definitely caused me to re-assess the way I drive if I do end up driving in the rain (which is thankfully rare). The car isn't well suited to wet weather driving - semi slick tyres, lots of power to the rear wheels and no driver aids (not even ABS), but I'm much more confident that I have a good idea where the limit is, so have modified my approach accordingly.

I guess the point is that it can be very helpful doing days like the Carlimits, and other track days, where you become familiar with the car's performance and limits, so you are at least aware of roughly what they are, and can ensure you're not getting too near them when on the road.


[/quote]

Whilst I wouldn't want to dilute your message, it's worthwhile remembering a couple of things:

1) Race tracks, or areas that get a lot of rubber laid down, are much more slippery than areas with less rubber on them.

2) Race tracks tend to remove references that you use to judge speed, so you can be going much faster than you think.

The end result of both of these is that on a race track in the wet it feels like you're going unbelievably slowly, even when driving on the limit.

The above isn't intended to counter what you're saying, but it is something to bear in mind.