Are brake lights at junctions the new front fog lights?
Discussion
^ i can see the logic behind reversing camera's but lane assist aids and reverse parking stuff will develop drivers who will never be skillful drivers. They'll be the MLM's fooling about with the tech in the car whilst drinking costa's from cups in the cup holders. The aids wake them up when they should already being concentrating on the task in hand.
I've also seen cars with the indicators so close to the headlights that you hardly notice them flashing. How they ever got signed off is beyond me.
Manufacturers certainly have caused a few issues imo.
I've also seen cars with the indicators so close to the headlights that you hardly notice them flashing. How they ever got signed off is beyond me.
Manufacturers certainly have caused a few issues imo.
Boosted LS1 said:
^ i can see the logic behind reversing camera's but lane assist aids and reverse parking stuff will develop drivers who will never be skillful drivers. They'll be the MLM's fooling about with the tech in the car whilst drinking costa's from cups in the cup holders. The aids wake them up when they should already being concentrating on the task in hand.
Many of the aids help the elderly who managed to drive cars in their youth which were far more challenging than cars in the last few decades. Plus there are many people out there who will never become skilled drivers but do just enough to pass a test, so keeping them safe helps keep us safe!
My point about the education system in this country being aimed at passing exams. Much the same as schools teaching kids how to pass GCSE's and "A" levels for Offsted statistics and therefore funding driving instructors teaching newbies how to pass the test but not necessarily how to drive.
If a driving instructor boasts about a 90% or more pass rate; avoid them.
A number of times I have heard about kids passing their tests in brand new cars with so many drivers aids Bono should release a charity single for then stacking their twenty year old Corsa into a tree within a month because the car they learned to drive in was a basically autopilot in comparison. I always suggest that for every hour new drivers spend in a school car they should spend at least three in the car they will drive when they pass their test.
I do go on various tangents but I think we're on the same page.
If a driving instructor boasts about a 90% or more pass rate; avoid them.
A number of times I have heard about kids passing their tests in brand new cars with so many drivers aids Bono should release a charity single for then stacking their twenty year old Corsa into a tree within a month because the car they learned to drive in was a basically autopilot in comparison. I always suggest that for every hour new drivers spend in a school car they should spend at least three in the car they will drive when they pass their test.
I do go on various tangents but I think we're on the same page.
Edited by Liquid Knight on Sunday 2nd December 18:32
When I was first interested in cars, self cancelling indicators were seen as the harbinger of doom. If drivers didn't have to concentrate enough to cancel their indicators, they would simply stop concentrating altogether, driving standards would go to pot and the road would be littered with crashed cars.
Liquid Knight said:
My point about the education system in this country being aimed at passing exams. Much the same as schools teaching kids how to pass GCSE's and "A" levels for Offsted statistics and therefore funding driving instructors teaching newbies how to pass the test but not necessarily how to drive.
If a driving instructor boasts about a 90% or more pass rate; avoid them.
A number of times I have heard about kids passing their tests in brand new cars with so many drivers aids Bono should release a charity single for then stacking their twenty year old Corsa into a tree within a month because the car they learned to drive in was a basically autopilot in comparison. I always suggest that for every hour new drivers spend in a school car they should spend at least three in the car they will drive when they pass their test.
I do go on various tangents but I think we're on the same page.
Lots of kids years ago learnt to drive in cars with no driver aids, and they still crashed their own car after passing their test, so unfortunately that has no relevance.If a driving instructor boasts about a 90% or more pass rate; avoid them.
A number of times I have heard about kids passing their tests in brand new cars with so many drivers aids Bono should release a charity single for then stacking their twenty year old Corsa into a tree within a month because the car they learned to drive in was a basically autopilot in comparison. I always suggest that for every hour new drivers spend in a school car they should spend at least three in the car they will drive when they pass their test.
I do go on various tangents but I think we're on the same page.
Edited by Liquid Knight on Sunday 2nd December 18:32
vonhosen said:
janesmith1950 said:
vonhosen said:
Who's defining the best practice?
Most vehicle manufacturing isn't in this country.
That was the point- automated systems have potential to and are contradicting various bits of wisdom. Most vehicle manufacturing isn't in this country.
This thread is an example: if you use the car's auto-handbrake system, and it leaves the brake lights on, you're creating upset in at least some road craft enthusiasts' corners.
These forums seem to be populated by mostly UK drivers. Most vehicle manufacturing is from outside the UK.
They (manufacturers) won't be concerning themselves much with wisdoms of niche groups in the UK. If they do think about any perceived wisdoms they'll likely consider the large groups within their home/largest markets.
Further, road craft, whether you capitalise it or not develops over time, it is not set in stone.
DoubleD said:
Lots of kids years ago learnt to drive in cars with no driver aids, and they still crashed their own car after passing their test, so unfortunately that has no relevance.
Brilliant argument I have no rebuttal. New drivers crashing cars has been the way of life since the inception of the automobile.
I do however stand by my advice of driving their car three times as much as the driving school car.
Liquid Knight said:
DoubleD said:
Lots of kids years ago learnt to drive in cars with no driver aids, and they still crashed their own car after passing their test, so unfortunately that has no relevance.
Brilliant argument I have no rebuttal. New drivers crashing cars has been the way of life since the inception of the automobile.
I do however stand by my advice of driving their car three times as much as the driving school car.
BertBert said:
Liquid Knight said:
A number of times I have heard about kids passing their tests in brand new cars with so many drivers aids
Which driver aids help the kids pass their tests then? Adaptive cruise, lane assist?Bert
BertBert said:
Which driver aids help the kids pass their tests then? Adaptive cruise, lane assist?
Bert
Anti stall, hill start assist, maybe blind spot monitor, reversing camera with steering guides, automatic wipers, autoblip for downchanges.Bert
What aids would you suggest for an instructor car?
Is it becoming more difficult to transition between different cars because of the different technology features?
waremark said:
BertBert said:
Which driver aids help the kids pass their tests then? Adaptive cruise, lane assist?
Bert
Anti stall, hill start assist, maybe blind spot monitor, reversing camera with steering guides, automatic wipers, autoblip for downchanges.Bert
Learners should be be able to demonstrate how to get a good head of steam in a traction engine before leaving the test centre.
Tony33 said:
Boosted LS1 said:
^ i can see the logic behind reversing camera's but lane assist aids and reverse parking stuff will develop drivers who will never be skillful drivers. They'll be the MLM's fooling about with the tech in the car whilst drinking costa's from cups in the cup holders. The aids wake them up when they should already being concentrating on the task in hand.
Many of the aids help the elderly who managed to drive cars in their youth which were far more challenging than cars in the last few decades. Plus there are many people out there who will never become skilled drivers but do just enough to pass a test, so keeping them safe helps keep us safe!How much of being a #good# driver is about the mechanisms of driving, ie the motor(!) skills? It's not really. It's about what goes on in the brain. The thinking. The risk assessment, the observation, the planning, the anticipation. Those are driving skills. The motor-skills to steer, change gear, brake etc need to be learnt and for young drivers the need to learn them gets in the way of them learning to be good drivers.
So whilst teaching the basics, the minimum happens to get people through their tests, that's not the fault of the driving instructors, but of the system The Govt wants safer roads, that's one of the things we ask them to do, but they don't have a very good way of doing it. It's essentially through more regulation, more signage, more (automated) penalties.
Is that the way to get better driving? Nope. More education and a better ethos is what's needed. Make it a good thing to drive well, not a bad thing to break rules.
In all that, if anything, driver aids are a good thing. They are certainly not a bad thing.
Bert
So whilst teaching the basics, the minimum happens to get people through their tests, that's not the fault of the driving instructors, but of the system The Govt wants safer roads, that's one of the things we ask them to do, but they don't have a very good way of doing it. It's essentially through more regulation, more signage, more (automated) penalties.
Is that the way to get better driving? Nope. More education and a better ethos is what's needed. Make it a good thing to drive well, not a bad thing to break rules.
In all that, if anything, driver aids are a good thing. They are certainly not a bad thing.
Bert
BertBert said:
How much of being a #good# driver is about the mechanisms of driving, ie the motor(!) skills? It's not really. It's about what goes on in the brain. The thinking. The risk assessment, the observation, the planning, the anticipation. Those are driving skills. The motor-skills to steer, change gear, brake etc need to be learnt and for young drivers the need to learn them gets in the way of them learning to be good drivers.
So whilst teaching the basics, the minimum happens to get people through their tests, that's not the fault of the driving instructors, but of the system The Govt wants safer roads, that's one of the things we ask them to do, but they don't have a very good way of doing it. It's essentially through more regulation, more signage, more (automated) penalties.
Is that the way to get better driving? Nope. More education and a better ethos is what's needed. Make it a good thing to drive well, not a bad thing to break rules.
In all that, if anything, driver aids are a good thing. They are certainly not a bad thing.
Bert
But that has been the whole philosophical change in ADI training & standards checks. The recognition that training needs to address higher level driving skills by accessing the training of lower level skills through the higher level skills, effectively top down not bottom up.(See HERMES project & GDE matrix). It was traditionally focused on lower level skills & never addressed higher level skills & DVSA have worked hard to address that.So whilst teaching the basics, the minimum happens to get people through their tests, that's not the fault of the driving instructors, but of the system The Govt wants safer roads, that's one of the things we ask them to do, but they don't have a very good way of doing it. It's essentially through more regulation, more signage, more (automated) penalties.
Is that the way to get better driving? Nope. More education and a better ethos is what's needed. Make it a good thing to drive well, not a bad thing to break rules.
In all that, if anything, driver aids are a good thing. They are certainly not a bad thing.
Bert
Tony33 said:
I would be worried about how new drivers are obsessed by speed limits as if driving to them is a measure of safe driving regardless of conditions and hazards. The aids are needed to stop them crashing when it isn't their fault because not speeding.
Yes - and it's a shame that a recent prang by a respected and much followed journalist - "it wasn't my fault I couldn't stop in time, the truck was doing a 3 point turn in the road" - hasn't been capitalised on to get the message home that *inappropriate speed" is the real issue.vonhosen said:
But that has been the whole philosophical change in ADI training & standards checks. The recognition that training needs to address higher level driving skills by accessing the training of lower level skills through the higher level skills, effectively top down not bottom up.(See HERMES project & GDE matrix). It was traditionally focused on lower level skills & never addressed higher level skills & DVSA have worked hard to address that.
So have those things filtered down to how people are taught to drive, the driving test, the government's approach to better driving?I have no current experience of the former, but I see none of the latter.
The government agencies involved can't even be bothered to teach us about smart motorways. They've just introduced the motorway awareness course. Same ethos, it's a 'punishment' for a transgression and carries all the naughty boy messages.
Bert
BertBert said:
vonhosen said:
But that has been the whole philosophical change in ADI training & standards checks. The recognition that training needs to address higher level driving skills by accessing the training of lower level skills through the higher level skills, effectively top down not bottom up.(See HERMES project & GDE matrix). It was traditionally focused on lower level skills & never addressed higher level skills & DVSA have worked hard to address that.
So have those things filtered down to how people are taught to drive, the driving test, the government's approach to better driving?I have no current experience of the former, but I see none of the latter.
The government agencies involved can't even be bothered to teach us about smart motorways. They've just introduced the motorway awareness course. Same ethos, it's a 'punishment' for a transgression and carries all the naughty boy messages.
Bert
They aren't responsible for legislation & enforcement (which is the government & judiciary).
vonhosen said:
The DVSA yes, they are responsible for what's taught & tested (which has to be signed off by the government).
Interesting. I'm about to help a friend's children with some driving practice as they learn to drive. Is there a publication I could get that describes the modern driving test and skills needed?Bert
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