Just switched to an 8speed Auto, feel like I need training
Discussion
As many of you will know from previous discussions, I'm completely with Beastmaster on this one. If at any one time I have a choice of actions and one choice leads to me being closer to 'the limit' (in quotes because it's not really that simple), and another choice keeps me further from it, I will always choose the latter. Why allow my safety margin to get smaller? This means driving with smooth measured inputs, always rev-matching downchanges, following a line through a corner (accounting for seeing and being seen as well, of course), changing brake pressure at the right moments (cresting a rise, crossing standing water etc), and yes, I also include maintaining a balanced car at all times. Many IAM people will do some things off that list, but why not do them all?
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 22 January 09:04
So, I'm just debating, not being serious, just exchanging views.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but there's a much simpler way of getting into a corner safely. Don't change gear whilst braking and turn the corner at a lower speed. Much less skill used, much less chance of making a mistake. If more safety-margin is actually your goal, then I venture to suggest you are not acting on it as you could.
If your goals are more nuanced, including utilising more 'active' control of vehicle dynamics through driver skills, maintaining needed balance at higher corner speeds, shortening braking distances by changing gear in the braking phase, then I agree you need to do those clever (and enjoyable) things. But by and large, slower is safer!
I'm only being a pedantic knob in my comments to Beastmaster on the basis that I don't believe his or her TVR won't turn a corner unless he or she is on the brakes. My light LSD'd TVR had no problem at all going round corners - well it did, it was s
te, but not because of understeer.
Bert
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but there's a much simpler way of getting into a corner safely. Don't change gear whilst braking and turn the corner at a lower speed. Much less skill used, much less chance of making a mistake. If more safety-margin is actually your goal, then I venture to suggest you are not acting on it as you could.
If your goals are more nuanced, including utilising more 'active' control of vehicle dynamics through driver skills, maintaining needed balance at higher corner speeds, shortening braking distances by changing gear in the braking phase, then I agree you need to do those clever (and enjoyable) things. But by and large, slower is safer!
I'm only being a pedantic knob in my comments to Beastmaster on the basis that I don't believe his or her TVR won't turn a corner unless he or she is on the brakes. My light LSD'd TVR had no problem at all going round corners - well it did, it was s
te, but not because of understeer.Bert
BertBert said:
So, I'm just debating, not being serious, just exchanging views.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but there's a much simpler way of getting into a corner safely. Don't change gear whilst braking and turn the corner at a lower speed. Much less skill used, much less chance of making a mistake. If more safety-margin is actually your goal, then I venture to suggest you are not acting on it as you could.
If your goals are more nuanced, including utilising more 'active' control of vehicle dynamics through driver skills, maintaining needed balance at higher corner speeds, shortening braking distances by changing gear in the braking phase, then I agree you need to do those clever (and enjoyable) things. But by and large, slower is safer!
I'm only being a pedantic knob in my comments to Beastmaster on the basis that I don't believe his or her TVR won't turn a corner unless he or she is on the brakes. My light LSD'd TVR had no problem at all going round corners - well it did, it was ste, but not because of understeer.
Bert
I think it's very relevant how much effort is being expended. For me, H&Ting into a corner and turning in with a balanced car is the norm and doesn't take any effort at all. For me an unbalanced car is just inherently wrong, like hearing an instrument playing out of tune. There's certainly not more chance of making a mistake than if I drive a different way.I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but there's a much simpler way of getting into a corner safely. Don't change gear whilst braking and turn the corner at a lower speed. Much less skill used, much less chance of making a mistake. If more safety-margin is actually your goal, then I venture to suggest you are not acting on it as you could.
If your goals are more nuanced, including utilising more 'active' control of vehicle dynamics through driver skills, maintaining needed balance at higher corner speeds, shortening braking distances by changing gear in the braking phase, then I agree you need to do those clever (and enjoyable) things. But by and large, slower is safer!
I'm only being a pedantic knob in my comments to Beastmaster on the basis that I don't believe his or her TVR won't turn a corner unless he or she is on the brakes. My light LSD'd TVR had no problem at all going round corners - well it did, it was s
te, but not because of understeer.Bert
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 22 January 09:03
RobM77 said:
I think it's very relevant how much effort is being expended. For me, H&Ting into a corner and turning in with a balanced car is the norm and doesn't take any effort at all. For me an unbalanced car is just inherently wrong, like hearing an instrument playing out of tune. There's certainly not more chance of making a mistake than if I drive a different way.
Out of interest, when do you HnT into a corner? I assume it's not literally every corner, turning into the Lidl car park for example? For me, I have to be driving 'faster' than my normal touring style for it to make sense.Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 22 January 09:03
Bert
BertBert said:
RobM77 said:
I think it's very relevant how much effort is being expended. For me, H&Ting into a corner and turning in with a balanced car is the norm and doesn't take any effort at all. For me an unbalanced car is just inherently wrong, like hearing an instrument playing out of tune. There's certainly not more chance of making a mistake than if I drive a different way.
Out of interest, when do you HnT into a corner? I assume it's not literally every corner, turning into the Lidl car park for example? For me, I have to be driving 'faster' than my normal touring style for it to make sense.Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 22 January 09:03
Bert
To answer your question: everywhere. It's just how I drive. I can drive with the car unbalanced, for example when mucking about on skid pans, but it's not normally how I drive.
RobM77 said:
Sorry, just to clarify, I meant H&T in a straight line and then turn in!
To answer your question: everywhere. It's just how I drive. I can drive with the car unbalanced, for example when mucking about on skid pans, but it's not normally how I drive.
I don't think I get it (genuinely)! What do you mean with regard to balanced versus unbalanced, what does that mean in practice?To answer your question: everywhere. It's just how I drive. I can drive with the car unbalanced, for example when mucking about on skid pans, but it's not normally how I drive.
Bert
BertBert said:
RobM77 said:
Sorry, just to clarify, I meant H&T in a straight line and then turn in!
To answer your question: everywhere. It's just how I drive. I can drive with the car unbalanced, for example when mucking about on skid pans, but it's not normally how I drive.
I don't think I get it (genuinely)! What do you mean with regard to balanced versus unbalanced, what does that mean in practice?To answer your question: everywhere. It's just how I drive. I can drive with the car unbalanced, for example when mucking about on skid pans, but it's not normally how I drive.
Bert
BertBert said:
RobM77 said:
Slip angle front vs rear.
Ok, I give in, I won't ask any more. I just don't get what you mean in relation to your road driving style. I'll leave it at that.Cheers
Bert
How do slip angles not relate to road driving? You get slip angles at all speeds right down to walking pace. It's slip angles that provide the predominant forces of tyre grip. For example, hysteresis of the rubber over an uneven road surface relies on slip to provide grip. Slip angles are why your tyres squeal on a painted surface in a car park even though you're nowhere near 'the limit'. The reason I put 'the limit' in quotes all the time is that it merely refers to the point of optimum slip angle, after which there's a sharp drop off in grip vs slip.Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 24th January 14:04
RobM77 said:
How do slip angles not relate to road driving?Let's reset to what I was trying to ask...
RobM77 said:
As many of you will know from previous discussions, I'm completely with Beastmaster on this one. If at any one time I have a choice of actions and one choice leads to me being closer to 'the limit' (in quotes because it's not really that simple), and another choice keeps me further from it, I will always choose the latter. Why allow my safety margin to get smaller? This means driving with smooth measured inputs, always rev-matching downchanges, following a line through a corner (accounting for seeing and being seen as well, of course), changing brake pressure at the right moments (cresting a rise, crossing standing water etc), and yes, I also include maintaining a balanced car at all times. Many IAM people will do some things off that list, but why not do them all?
When you said the bit in bold, what did you mean? Is that a reference to the previous text about smooth measured inputs or a reference to something else?That's what I am trying to ascertain!
Cheers
Bert
BertBert said:
RobM77 said:
How do slip angles not relate to road driving?Let's reset to what I was trying to ask...
RobM77 said:
As many of you will know from previous discussions, I'm completely with Beastmaster on this one. If at any one time I have a choice of actions and one choice leads to me being closer to 'the limit' (in quotes because it's not really that simple), and another choice keeps me further from it, I will always choose the latter. Why allow my safety margin to get smaller? This means driving with smooth measured inputs, always rev-matching downchanges, following a line through a corner (accounting for seeing and being seen as well, of course), changing brake pressure at the right moments (cresting a rise, crossing standing water etc), and yes, I also include maintaining a balanced car at all times. Many IAM people will do some things off that list, but why not do them all?
When you said the bit in bold, what did you mean? Is that a reference to the previous text about smooth measured inputs or a reference to something else?That's what I am trying to ascertain!
Cheers
Bert
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 25th January 11:12
Great, thanks, now I understand. In my great fat VW 4x4, it's pretty much impossible to keep the front tyres wearing the same rate as the rears as in reality it's a front wheel drive car. The rears last for about twice what the fronts do. Mind you the fronts are just about up to 40k miles 
Got about 2.5-3.0mm so ready for a change.
Bert
Got about 2.5-3.0mm so ready for a change.Bert
In a way, I’m kind or glad my origenal question has raised so much debate, as it says to me there are rights and wrongs.
I’m still struggling to feel as involved ŵith this car some 13000 miles in.
But I’m also still learning how best to drive this car with this drivetrain.
I think I will always be a ‘stick’ guy though.
Thanks all.
I’m still struggling to feel as involved ŵith this car some 13000 miles in.
But I’m also still learning how best to drive this car with this drivetrain.
I think I will always be a ‘stick’ guy though.
Thanks all.
BertBert said:
Great, thanks, now I understand. In my great fat VW 4x4, it's pretty much impossible to keep the front tyres wearing the same rate as the rears as in reality it's a front wheel drive car. The rears last for about twice what the fronts do. Mind you the fronts are just about up to 40k miles Got about 2.5-3.0mm so ready for a change.
Bert
No problem. Yes, your experiences with tyre wear are very typical. In contrast, my 3 series wears its tyres almost exactly evenly front to rear. Got about 2.5-3.0mm so ready for a change.Bert
This explains my strong preference for RWD on the road. With a 4x4 like yours, or a FWD car, balance can only normally be achieved consistently and effectively with a lot of speed and commitment on turn-in; fine on track, not so great on the road. For me, balance is almost like playing an instrument in tune; I can't get much satisfaction out of driving if I can't achieve it.
jamieandthemagic said:
In a way, I’m kind or glad my origenal question has raised so much debate, as it says to me there are rights and wrongs.
I’m still struggling to feel as involved ?ith this car some 13000 miles in.
But I’m also still learning how best to drive this car with this drivetrain.
I think I will always be a ‘stick’ guy though.
Thanks all.
I’m still struggling to feel as involved ?ith this car some 13000 miles in.
But I’m also still learning how best to drive this car with this drivetrain.
I think I will always be a ‘stick’ guy though.
Thanks all.
Me too. I love that interaction. My latest racing car is a sequential (three pedals, but instead of an H pattern gearchange, it's just a forwards and back lever, like a motorbike), and whilst I'm grateful because in a single seater there's rarely room for me to operate the gearstick and heel and toe properly, I do miss stirring a gearstick and H&Ting, as I do in my road car. I also miss the advantage it gave me in the wet in club racing being adept at it if I'm brutally honest.I loved this video from Henry Catchpole on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaUCdAdaaj8
RobM77 said:
Me too. I love that interaction. My latest racing car is a sequential (three pedals, but instead of an H pattern gearchange, it's just a forwards and back lever, like a motorbike), and whilst I'm grateful because in a single seater there's rarely room for me to operate the gearstick and heel and toe properly, I do miss stirring a gearstick and H&Ting, as I do in my road car. I also miss the advantage it gave me in the wet in club racing being adept at it if I'm brutally honest.I loved this video from Henry Catchpole on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaUCdAdaaj8
BTW I have come to terms with the auto rev matching in the M2. It does not interfere if I drive in my normal way unless I get my rev matching wrong, and if occasionally I do so it's no more annoying than experiencing a bit of clutch drag.
waremark said:
RobM77 said:
Me too. I love that interaction. My latest racing car is a sequential (three pedals, but instead of an H pattern gearchange, it's just a forwards and back lever, like a motorbike), and whilst I'm grateful because in a single seater there's rarely room for me to operate the gearstick and heel and toe properly, I do miss stirring a gearstick and H&Ting, as I do in my road car. I also miss the advantage it gave me in the wet in club racing being adept at it if I'm brutally honest.I loved this video from Henry Catchpole on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaUCdAdaaj8
BTW I have come to terms with the auto rev matching in the M2. It does not interfere if I drive in my normal way unless I get my rev matching wrong, and if occasionally I do so it's no more annoying than experiencing a bit of clutch drag.
I was a driving instructor and have done, track days,rallying and karting and have always used the brakes to slow a vehicle down.
Never, never use the gears to slow a car,as people have said below that is a big no,no.It puts strain on the transmission,is really jerky, and under certain conditions lock the wheels.The only time for engine braking is a steep downhill decent,it will save your brakes,but only in high grip situations.Heal and toeing gives beautiful seemless gear changes if done correctly.
Read loads of books on driving,and go out and practice,and do driving courses.It's fun and rewarding.After forty years of driving I am still learning.Most of all have fun!
Never, never use the gears to slow a car,as people have said below that is a big no,no.It puts strain on the transmission,is really jerky, and under certain conditions lock the wheels.The only time for engine braking is a steep downhill decent,it will save your brakes,but only in high grip situations.Heal and toeing gives beautiful seemless gear changes if done correctly.
Read loads of books on driving,and go out and practice,and do driving courses.It's fun and rewarding.After forty years of driving I am still learning.Most of all have fun!
I thought i'd struggle when i switched my daily from a stick to a slush box 320d but in reality you just re-learn how to balance the car and you learn how the gearbox works so you know when you're going to need to make a torque demand and when you're going to need to use the brakes.
I have to say I can make progress much more smoothly in the auto but i'm not sure if thats because its an auto or because it made me think more and become (even) more aware of what I was doing.
Like RobM77 I am always aiming for that sweet balance and smooth progress
I have to say I can make progress much more smoothly in the auto but i'm not sure if thats because its an auto or because it made me think more and become (even) more aware of what I was doing.
Like RobM77 I am always aiming for that sweet balance and smooth progress
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