Timing gear changes before corners
Discussion
Something I've been struggling with recently is how soon before a corner to shift into the appropiate gear before a corner/junction. I know roadcraft preaches no BGOL but when I attempt this it results in me slowing down a lot before the corner, engaging the appropiate gear and moving through the corner/junction much slower than I otherwise would. I get that this is probably not a bad thing in most cases but when trying to negotiate well sighted bends with a tightening apex on a NSL road or similar, I end up losing a lot of speed and flow through the corners due to having to scrub speed and shift well before the corner to ensure I have the appropiate gear to exit the corner.
Before trying to stick to the system I would brake to scrub speed before the corner and shift a lot later, often bringing the clutch up just before the corner or part of the way into the corner, which I know now is not a good idea in general.
A related problem is when I sometimes enter the corner in too high of a gear due to not realising the bend tightens. Are there any tips/techniques to help with this or is it as I suspect and I just have to get much better at observation/planning in general? Thanks in advance.
Before trying to stick to the system I would brake to scrub speed before the corner and shift a lot later, often bringing the clutch up just before the corner or part of the way into the corner, which I know now is not a good idea in general.
A related problem is when I sometimes enter the corner in too high of a gear due to not realising the bend tightens. Are there any tips/techniques to help with this or is it as I suspect and I just have to get much better at observation/planning in general? Thanks in advance.
Mscott4 said:
Something I've been struggling with recently is how soon before a corner to shift into the appropiate gear before a corner/junction. I know roadcraft preaches no BGOL but when I attempt this it results in me slowing down a lot before the corner, engaging the appropiate gear and moving through the corner/junction much slower than I otherwise would. I get that this is probably not a bad thing in most cases but when trying to negotiate well sighted bends with a tightening apex on a NSL road or similar, I end up losing a lot of speed and flow through the corners due to having to scrub speed and shift well before the corner to ensure I have the appropiate gear to exit the corner.
Before trying to stick to the system I would brake to scrub speed before the corner and shift a lot later, often bringing the clutch up just before the corner or part of the way into the corner, which I know now is not a good idea in general.
A related problem is when I sometimes enter the corner in too high of a gear due to not realising the bend tightens. Are there any tips/techniques to help with this or is it as I suspect and I just have to get much better at observation/planning in general? Thanks in advance.
If you're then going too slow, you're braking too much and possibly selecting a lower gear than you need.Before trying to stick to the system I would brake to scrub speed before the corner and shift a lot later, often bringing the clutch up just before the corner or part of the way into the corner, which I know now is not a good idea in general.
A related problem is when I sometimes enter the corner in too high of a gear due to not realising the bend tightens. Are there any tips/techniques to help with this or is it as I suspect and I just have to get much better at observation/planning in general? Thanks in advance.
Tbh going too slow for a bend like you say isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially if you are struggling with observing decreasing radius bends.
Slow in fast out. Focus on being smooth, remember it's not a race and just go at your own pace.
I'm very reluctant to suggest this, but when you downshift if you increase the revs before releasing the clutch then you'll be able to release the clutch much quicker/earlier.
Disclaimer: I don't consider myself an "advanced driver".
Edited by bluezedd on Sunday 23 June 13:30
Easy way to gauge the gear change is make sure your braking and gear selection is completed prior to you reaching the deviation sign that is warning you the presence of the bends..
That way, you will always be in the right gear and right speed, at the right time.
TB
(Taught to me by my brother, who is a Surrey Traffic cop)
Edited by TechBod on Tuesday 25th June 11:51
Mscott4 said:
losing a lot of speed and flow through the corners due to having to scrub speed and shift well before the corner to ensure I have the appropiate gear to exit the corner.
I think the key is practise. You don’t have to do it well before the corner- pick the point where the corner starts, work back how much space you need for the gear change, work back to where you need to start braking to get to that speed. Rinse and repeat until you start to get a feel for it.On the open corners you mention you might not even need the brakes.
Chris
I think your problem is to do with not using limit point analysis to set your speed. As you're approaching a corner the limit point will usually be static, this is your braking phase. As you get closer to the corner the limit point will start to move and this is the indication you should be coming off the brakes and selecting the correct gear.
_Hoppers said:
I think your problem is to do with not using limit point analysis to set your speed. As you're approaching a corner the limit point will usually be static, this is your braking phase. As you get closer to the corner the limit point will start to move and this is the indication you should be coming off the brakes and selecting the correct gear.
That makes sense:- I'll give this a go; When it comes to limit points I'm usually thinking that "with me" means hold speed, rather than also using it as an indicator for gear - Which means If I haven't selected the gear well prior to the corner I find myself pottering round to an awkward downshift at the other side.That being said, Going to review roadcraft it does make sense as it's the logical sequence given the determination of the correct speed for the corner..
Pericoloso said:
What's BGOL from the OP ?....
Tried Google ,no answers.
Its Brake Gear Overlap. The idea is you separate the braking phase from the gear changing phase. It's part of IPSGA, Information , Position, Speed, Gear, Acceleration. Each element is a separate 'operation'. Once you have set the correct speed for the corner/hazard you then change gear, not brake and change gear at same time.Tried Google ,no answers.
Haltamer said:
That makes sense:- I'll give this a go; When it comes to limit points I'm usually thinking that "with me" means hold speed, rather than also using it as an indicator for gear - Which means If I haven't selected the gear well prior to the corner I find myself pottering round to an awkward downshift at the other side.
That being said, Going to review roadcraft it does make sense as it's the logical sequence given the determination of the correct speed for the corner..
I learn from practical demonstration as opposed to reading a book. If you're like me it might be worth getting some help from a Rospa group (I say Rospa as the IAM didn't teach me limit point analysis) to go through it with you. It's much more insightful if someone is sat by your side whilst you're driving explaining the limit point. When you do learn how to use LPA it's a revelation (it was for me anyway)!That being said, Going to review roadcraft it does make sense as it's the logical sequence given the determination of the correct speed for the corner..
Edited by _Hoppers on Monday 24th June 23:44
_Hoppers said:
I learn from practical demonstration as opposed to reading a book. If you're like me it might be worth getting some help from a Rospa group (I say Rospa as the IAM didn't teach me limit point analysis) to go through it with you. It's much more insightful if someone is sat by your side whilst you're driving explaining the limit point. When you do learn how to use LPA it's a revelation (it was for me anyway)!
Interesting - i'm currently doing IAM and LPOV/LPA is taught extensively. Regional variation perhaps?Edited by _Hoppers on Monday 24th June 23:44
kuiper said:
Interesting - i'm currently doing IAM and LPOV/LPA is taught extensively. Regional variation perhaps?
No doubt. All down to the individual too.EDIT
I did my IAM test on the bike. To be fair to the IAM, I personally think it's difficult to fully explain LPA when your stood at the roadside. I was a member of the York bike group and only one observer mentioned it but he glossed over the subject. To be successfully taught LPA I think you're better off in a car. I later did my Rospa test in a car which is when I really understood how to use it.
Edited by _Hoppers on Tuesday 25th June 12:46
Edited by _Hoppers on Tuesday 25th June 12:48
At the risk of going off topic, I'll also defend the value of Heel & Toe for road use. Only as a tool in the box to be used in a planned way though, not to dig yourself out of a hole caused by bad observation and planning.
For the OP - how familiar are you with the idea of the Limit Point?
If the golden rule is being able to stop in the available distance, then the amount of road between you and the Limit Point is what you have to work with.
If it helps, another way of expressing it is that you should aim to be traveling at the lowest speed when forward vision is at its worst. For most bends, this will be just before you start to turn in.
For a few, tightening bends you may end up holding the brakes on for longer, even into the bend. Braking into bends isn't really mentioned in Roadcraft, but it's often the only sensible way to deal with a tightening bend.
To answer your original question, you should be selecting the gear when you've got the speed correct and are not planning to slow any more. Getting the speed right is the tricky bit, where some proper instruction about observation and Limit Points will help.
For the OP - how familiar are you with the idea of the Limit Point?
If the golden rule is being able to stop in the available distance, then the amount of road between you and the Limit Point is what you have to work with.
If it helps, another way of expressing it is that you should aim to be traveling at the lowest speed when forward vision is at its worst. For most bends, this will be just before you start to turn in.
For a few, tightening bends you may end up holding the brakes on for longer, even into the bend. Braking into bends isn't really mentioned in Roadcraft, but it's often the only sensible way to deal with a tightening bend.
To answer your original question, you should be selecting the gear when you've got the speed correct and are not planning to slow any more. Getting the speed right is the tricky bit, where some proper instruction about observation and Limit Points will help.
Edited by S. Gonzales Esq. on Tuesday 25th June 18:43
Chris32345 said:
No not unless your doing track/circuit driving
It's an absolutely stupid thing that is in no way needed on the road
"Need" is a relative term.It's an absolutely stupid thing that is in no way needed on the road
In terms of getting from A-B without falling off the road, most people get by without needing any sort of advanced technique. They could perhaps benefit from improving their observation, but mostly it makes sod all difference how they brake, change gear, steer, etc. They drive so far within their car's capabilities and have a whole host of electronic nannies looking after them.
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