Indicate left after overtaking, or lane change on a motorway
Discussion
Graveworm said:
It shows that we don't notice things when we are looking at something else. You can do a Google search for signal clutter or selective attention driving or processing visual information and there is dry research out there lots of it. Most of it is about road signs and to save you the trouble, I am pretty sure none measure the impact of a single indicator so that must mean it has no effect? Or you could infer that a flashing Amber light, that we are conditioned to look out for, might, from all the other things that do. It might also de-emphasise necessary signals.
We can only process very few visual things at a time. We can do it very quickly. We do have selective attention. An unnecessary signal is not a big deal in the scheme of things but it is something unecessary and visual. If it does no good why increase the risk even slightly if it is avoidable?
But the video you posted is about following and counting a single erratically moving object and only that object. People that fixate on some single activity or object on the road are called rubber-neckers and I would agree that they are a contributing factor to accidents. Unless there is a moth behind the wheel of a car I fail to see how a flashing indicator which you guys have deemed unnecessary has any meaningful impact on an adverse situation.We can only process very few visual things at a time. We can do it very quickly. We do have selective attention. An unnecessary signal is not a big deal in the scheme of things but it is something unecessary and visual. If it does no good why increase the risk even slightly if it is avoidable?
If it is obvious to driver A, that driver B has just overtaken driver A and will now move to the left of driver A. Why does the act of driver B indicating his intention to move left, cause driver B to become overwhelmed for a signal of intent, for something you are saying driver A was already expecting and anticipating.
It almost sounds like some are implying driver B should move left in secret and without being seen so as not to fluster the moth behind the wheel of car A! I know the response to this will be that this should always be the case, as another driver shouldn’t need to do anything differently when being safely passed. But that just brings us back to the same thought of how on earth the signal could adversely impact the same person.
I don’t disagree with you guys that some signalling is unnecessary and doesn’t make any difference to other road users, like signalling when no one else is around.
But I can’t agree that those advocating for the same, claim that some major negative or meaningful impact to others is caused, when the signal was deemed to add no value.
In very tense or extreme circumstances I would agree, signal clutter may absolutely be a factor. But that’s more likely to be in the cockpit of a plane. I’m struggling to apply this to a situation on a motorway though. In some sort of crazy emergency/freak/chaotic circumstances perhaps, but conversely maybe that ‘unnecessary’ signal in such circumstances could have the opposite effect and make the following driver do something different?
If there is so much stuff/road signs going on that we are going to struggle to process the information successfully, then surely the car needs to slow down to a point where the driver can process the information. This goes for your video too, slow it down and it becomes a piece of piss to see what’s going on.
RobM77 said:
I think it was posted this forum, but it may have been elsewhere, but I remember reading a fighter pilot’s perspective to observation and how easily we can miss things. It was all highly applicable to road driving and no, we can’t trust our observation 100%.
Fortunately all planes have indicators fitted.r250 said:
But the video you posted is about following and counting a single erratically moving object and only that object. People that fixate on some single activity or object on the road are called rubber-neckers and I would agree that they are a contributing factor to accidents. Unless there is a moth behind the wheel of a car I fail to see how a flashing indicator which you guys have deemed unnecessary has any meaningful impact on an adverse situation.
If it is obvious to driver A, that driver B has just overtaken driver A and will now move to the left of driver A. Why does the act of driver B indicating his intention to move left, cause driver B to become overwhelmed for a signal of intent, for something you are saying driver A was already expecting and anticipating.
It almost sounds like some are implying driver B should move left in secret and without being seen so as not to fluster the moth behind the wheel of car A! I know the response to this will be that this should always be the case, as another driver shouldn’t need to do anything differently when being safely passed. But that just brings us back to the same thought of how on earth the signal could adversely impact the same person.
I don’t disagree with you guys that some signalling is unnecessary and doesn’t make any difference to other road users, like signalling when no one else is around.
But I can’t agree that those advocating for the same, claim that some major negative or meaningful impact to others is caused, when the signal was deemed to add no value.
In very tense or extreme circumstances I would agree, signal clutter may absolutely be a factor. But that’s more likely to be in the cockpit of a plane. I’m struggling to apply this to a situation on a motorway though. In some sort of crazy emergency/freak/chaotic circumstances perhaps, but conversely maybe that ‘unnecessary’ signal in such circumstances could have the opposite effect and make the following driver do something different?
If there is so much stuff/road signs going on that we are going to struggle to process the information successfully, then surely the car needs to slow down to a point where the driver can process the information. This goes for your video too, slow it down and it becomes a piece of piss to see what’s going on.
No one said it was major in fact exactly the opposite. Its something vs nothing. Nothing is better. It's not just driver B it's all road users who can see it. If it is obvious to driver A, that driver B has just overtaken driver A and will now move to the left of driver A. Why does the act of driver B indicating his intention to move left, cause driver B to become overwhelmed for a signal of intent, for something you are saying driver A was already expecting and anticipating.
It almost sounds like some are implying driver B should move left in secret and without being seen so as not to fluster the moth behind the wheel of car A! I know the response to this will be that this should always be the case, as another driver shouldn’t need to do anything differently when being safely passed. But that just brings us back to the same thought of how on earth the signal could adversely impact the same person.
I don’t disagree with you guys that some signalling is unnecessary and doesn’t make any difference to other road users, like signalling when no one else is around.
But I can’t agree that those advocating for the same, claim that some major negative or meaningful impact to others is caused, when the signal was deemed to add no value.
In very tense or extreme circumstances I would agree, signal clutter may absolutely be a factor. But that’s more likely to be in the cockpit of a plane. I’m struggling to apply this to a situation on a motorway though. In some sort of crazy emergency/freak/chaotic circumstances perhaps, but conversely maybe that ‘unnecessary’ signal in such circumstances could have the opposite effect and make the following driver do something different?
If there is so much stuff/road signs going on that we are going to struggle to process the information successfully, then surely the car needs to slow down to a point where the driver can process the information. This goes for your video too, slow it down and it becomes a piece of piss to see what’s going on.
Edited by Graveworm on Saturday 10th August 19:26
RobM77 said:
I think it was posted this forum, but it may have been elsewhere, but I remember reading a fighter pilot’s perspective to observation and how easily we can miss things. It was all highly applicable to road driving and no, we can’t trust our observation 100%.
Saccadic masking - https://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cy...The original article can be accessed via the Dropbox link.
I only read the subject of this thread then the full first page, so my post is based on this. I had no inclination to read the following 13 pages. 
Every indication you make in a vehicle should be an individual conscious action - you look around to see if any other road users or pedestrians will benefit from seeing your indication. If the answer is no then there is no need to indicate.
Some people will say "I indicate out of habit and it is a good habit" This is not a good habit because no conscious thought goes into the decision, and it could be said that your level of concentration is not what it should be when driving a vehicle.
Unfortunately drivers who subscribe to the indicate out of habit philosophy are unlikely to ever be persuaded otherwise.
Every indication you make in a vehicle should be an individual conscious action - you look around to see if any other road users or pedestrians will benefit from seeing your indication. If the answer is no then there is no need to indicate.
Some people will say "I indicate out of habit and it is a good habit" This is not a good habit because no conscious thought goes into the decision, and it could be said that your level of concentration is not what it should be when driving a vehicle.
Unfortunately drivers who subscribe to the indicate out of habit philosophy are unlikely to ever be persuaded otherwise.
Ron240 said:
I only read the subject of this thread then the full first page, so my post is based on this. I had no inclination to read the following 13 pages.
Every indication you make in a vehicle should be an individual conscious action - you look around to see if any other road users or pedestrians will benefit from seeing your indication. If the answer is no then there is no need to indicate.
Some people will say "I indicate out of habit and it is a good habit" This is not a good habit because no conscious thought goes into the decision, and it could be said that your level of concentration is not what it should be when driving a vehicle.
Unfortunately drivers who subscribe to the indicate out of habit philosophy are unlikely to ever be persuaded otherwise.
Just to fill you in on those 13 pages, the argument wasn't one of habit vs conscious decision, it was actually conscious decision vs conscious decision, the difference being another thing entirely: one side of the argument assume their observation is perfect and there really isn't anyone there; whereas the other side always have doubts, so indicate just in case they've missed someone. Every indication you make in a vehicle should be an individual conscious action - you look around to see if any other road users or pedestrians will benefit from seeing your indication. If the answer is no then there is no need to indicate.
Some people will say "I indicate out of habit and it is a good habit" This is not a good habit because no conscious thought goes into the decision, and it could be said that your level of concentration is not what it should be when driving a vehicle.
Unfortunately drivers who subscribe to the indicate out of habit philosophy are unlikely to ever be persuaded otherwise.
As a keen runner and regular pedestrian and cyclist, my progress is frequently frustrated by drivers failing to indicate. Normally in the vast majority of those cases I am perfectly visible to that driver and they are just being a selfish arse by not indicating; however sometimes a driver's opportunities to see me can be very limited, perhaps due to me being in an obscured alleyway when they start their manoeuvre, or at night for less scrupulous runners than me (as I always wear a headtorch and bright clothing), unlit, wearing black and away from their headlights, or other similar situations where I can see them, but they can’t see me. Obviously there’s also cases of motorbikes hanging in someone’s blindspot, which is quite common on motorways. The other issue is timing; if you’ve shifted your hands away from the indicator stalks ready to take a turn and are right on top of a junction, all the while not signalling, if someone then appears at that point from around a bend needing to know your signal, or a runner bursts into vision, it puts an unplanned event into the situation to deal with; whereas if you were signalling anyway you don’t get that problem. That last case happens to me almost daily driving on country lanes.
The other case is drivers who simply haven’t thought about a situation fully. Many so called ‘advanced‘ drivers that I know don’t signal to join a motorway, because to them its obvious that the slip road ends. Of course, those behind you on the motorway aren’t always so well informed and may not know if the slip road becomes a lane or ends, so you should really signal to them. I know that may sound stupid, but there have been discussions on this topic on here in the past! It’s surprising how many ‘advanced’ drivers don’t realise this simple possibility.
Ron240 said:
I only read the subject of this thread then the full first page, so my post is based on this. I had no inclination to read the following 13 pages.
Every indication you make in a vehicle should be an individual conscious action - you look around to see if any other road users or pedestrians will benefit from seeing your indication. If the answer is no then there is no need to indicate.
Some people will say "I indicate out of habit and it is a good habit" This is not a good habit because no conscious thought goes into the decision, and it could be said that your level of concentration is not what it should be when driving a vehicle.
Unfortunately drivers who subscribe to the indicate out of habit philosophy are unlikely to ever be persuaded otherwise.
Hmm..Every indication you make in a vehicle should be an individual conscious action - you look around to see if any other road users or pedestrians will benefit from seeing your indication. If the answer is no then there is no need to indicate.
Some people will say "I indicate out of habit and it is a good habit" This is not a good habit because no conscious thought goes into the decision, and it could be said that your level of concentration is not what it should be when driving a vehicle.
Unfortunately drivers who subscribe to the indicate out of habit philosophy are unlikely to ever be persuaded otherwise.
Thing is, my "habit" is prescribed by Highway Code rules 103 and 133 and therefore not something I'll be giving up while I still hold a license!
(Would love to hear how anyone can interpret it any differently?)
Honestly, I get the whole conscious decision thing, just IMO the people who would benefit ME and the rest of the world most if they followed that advice don't have the mental capacity to do so..
Meanwhile, I'll happily take the chance that someone is indicating when they don't need / mean to and observe what they actually do. Which is exactly how I evaluate what anyone else on the road might do when they're NOT indicating. As in it's a directional signal that's open to interpretation - observant drivers should already be anticipating what other users might do, so indicating only increases the probability of a certain outcome but does not guarantee it.
sibriers said:
Hmm..
Thing is, my "habit" is prescribed by Highway Code rules 103 and 133 and therefore not something I'll be giving up while I still hold a license!
I refer you to the last sentence in my post which you quoted.Thing is, my "habit" is prescribed by Highway Code rules 103 and 133 and therefore not something I'll be giving up while I still hold a license!
I fully accept this is an argument I am not going to win with drivers who think like you do.
Edited by Ron240 on Monday 2nd September 16:30
RobM77 said:
if you’ve shifted your hands away from the indicator stalks ready to take a turn and are right on top of a junction, all the while not signalling, if someone then appears at that point from around a bend needing to know your signal, or a runner bursts into vision, it puts an unplanned event into the situation to deal with; whereas if you were signalling anyway you don’t get that problem.
The other case is drivers who simply haven’t thought about a situation fully. Many so called ‘advanced‘ drivers that I know don’t signal to join a motorway, because to them its obvious that the slip road ends. Of course, those behind you on the motorway aren’t always so well informed and may not know if the slip road becomes a lane or ends, so you should really signal to them.
The first point is nothing significant, it falls into the making a conscious decision based on your situation and surroundings. In your specific scenario I would be indicating even if I had not initially seen anybody else.The other case is drivers who simply haven’t thought about a situation fully. Many so called ‘advanced‘ drivers that I know don’t signal to join a motorway, because to them its obvious that the slip road ends. Of course, those behind you on the motorway aren’t always so well informed and may not know if the slip road becomes a lane or ends, so you should really signal to them.
Your second point.....no it should not be necessary to indicate at the end of a slip road to join a motorway or dual carriageway. However.....it can certainly be good practice if the road you are joining is busy therefore it can make your manoeuvre a little bit easier.
Edited by Ron240 on Monday 2nd September 16:46
Ron240 said:
RobM77 said:
The other case is drivers who simply haven’t thought about a situation fully. Many so called ‘advanced‘ drivers that I know don’t signal to join a motorway, because to them its obvious that the slip road ends. Of course, those behind you on the motorway aren’t always so well informed and may not know if the slip road becomes a lane or ends, so you should really signal to them.
Your second point.....no it should not be necessary to indicate at the end of a slip road to join a motorway or dual carriageway. However.....it can certainly be good practice if the road you are joining is busy therefore it can make your manoeuvre a little bit easier. Ron240 said:
Pica-Pica said:
I would suggest reading all of the posts.
Sorry.....to be perfectly honest I can't be bothered. The first page was all I needed to read, and as I said my first post was based on this.
RobM77 said:
So you'd move from the sliproad to lane 1 without indicating, even if there are people already on the motorway behind you? So how do those people already on the motorway know whether the sliproad ends and you're joining lane 1, or whether the sliproad becomes a new lane and you're staying put?
If traffic is light and I have adjusted my speed to safely join the motorway(a skill sadly lacking in many drivers) then I will not indicate, because there simply is no need to.But if like I said the road I am joining is busy then it is a good idea to indicate in the hope that drivers already on the motorway will be compliant and not make it difficult for me to join.
As far as drivers not knowing if a slip road ends or continues on in a dedicated lane.....well simply looking at road markings should be enough to clear this up, but it is irrelevant based on what I have already said.
Hey don't think that I believe I am perfect because I know I am not. I make mistakes on the road just like everybody else, but they are few and I am always fully aware when I have made one.......whereas the majority are oblivious to the fact.
I am enjoying this debate.
RobM77 said:
Page 1 was all you thought you needed to read. As it happens you've completely misunderstood the thread. I gave you a summary above if you want a quick catchup.
Oh no it IS all I needed or wanted to read. Yes of course I read your summary, The proof is that I quoted your post and we are still talking about it.
If the thread changed topic in the subsequent pages that it not my fault....I was only replying to the first page.
Edited by Ron240 on Monday 2nd September 17:13
RobM77 said:
The other case is drivers who simply haven’t thought about a situation fully. Many so called ‘advanced‘ drivers that I know don’t signal to join a motorway, because to them its obvious that the slip road ends. Of course, those behind you on the motorway aren’t always so well informed and may not know if the slip road becomes a lane or ends, so you should really signal to them. I know that may sound stupid, but there have been discussions on this topic on here in the past! It’s surprising how many ‘advanced’ drivers don’t realise this simple possibility.
I am very wary of drivers who do not indicate when joining motorways or dual carriageways. In most cases they are not looking either and are completely unaware of traffic approaching. They barge into lane one often at slow speed which doesn't match the traffic flow, and demand that you get out of their way to avoid a collision. Very dangerous practice which seems to becoming more prevalent.Ron240 said:
RobM77 said:
So you'd move from the sliproad to lane 1 without indicating, even if there are people already on the motorway behind you? So how do those people already on the motorway know whether the sliproad ends and you're joining lane 1, or whether the sliproad becomes a new lane and you're staying put?
If traffic is light and I have adjusted my speed to safely join the motorway(a skill sadly lacking in many drivers) then I will not indicate, because there simply is no need to.But if like I said the road I am joining is busy then it is a good idea to indicate in the hope that drivers already on the motorway will be compliant and not make it difficult for me to join.
As far as drivers not knowing if a slip road ends or continues on in a dedicated lane.....well simply looking at road markings should be enough to clear this up, but it is irrelevant based on what I have already said.
Hey don't think that I believe I am perfect because I know I am not. I make mistakes on the road just like everybody else, but they are few and I am always fully aware when I have made one.......whereas the majority are oblivious to the fact.
I am enjoying this debate.
Ron240 said:
RobM77 said:
Page 1 was all you thought you needed to read. As it happens you've completely misunderstood the thread. I gave you a summary above if you want a quick catchup.
Oh no it IS all I needed or wanted to read. Yes of course I read your summary, The proof is that I quoted your post and we are still talking about it.
If the thread changed topic in the subsequent pages that it not my fault....I was only replying to the first page.
Edited by Ron240 on Monday 2nd September 17:13
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