Why is A Road Overtaking a Problem?
Discussion
Dizeee said:
Its a good bit of advice, however, in order to see those lights one would have to look in their mirror to see them. Of course, if they checked their mirror they would see you anyway, and if they don't check their mirror, they wouldn't see you or the headlight flash.
A horn would be better. But, as with indicating, it's better not to do anything when overtaking other than concentrate on the manoeuvre itself. No point filling your brain with flashes, horn notes and indicator movements when you could be using that capacity to dynamically risk assess.
On the contrary, I think you will find that flashing lights in your mirror (rear view or door mirror) attract the attention of most drivers and make them physically look in the mirror to see what caused it.A horn would be better. But, as with indicating, it's better not to do anything when overtaking other than concentrate on the manoeuvre itself. No point filling your brain with flashes, horn notes and indicator movements when you could be using that capacity to dynamically risk assess.
It doesn't require much filling of the brain to use your headlight flashers at the same time as executing an overtake.
However, I appreciate that techniques that were maybe taught half a century ago may not necessarily be appropriate for today's congested roads filled with, in the main, risk averse drivers.
too many people in England now are driving like people in Ireland - useless and scared $hitless to over take and cause huge tailbacks, that or they are driving crap cars that cant over take. I am not saying everyone needs to do 100 mph on main roads but sticking to the limit or under is just retarded and causes nothing but tailbacks. I over take slow drivers whenever I get an opportunity, relatively easy it has to be said
https://youtu.be/z7rObebW25s
https://youtu.be/z7rObebW25s
nonsequitur said:
TR4man said:
What does your sons driving instructor think headlight flashers are for then?
Highway Code 110 / 111. Similar to horn use. Letting someone know you are there. I think what she meant was that flashing is used for many driving situations and can become confusing.Of course, the correct way to execute a number of single vehicle overtakes in one pass, is to drop at least two gears, to ensure a loud, aggressive engine note and then to pass whilst sounding your horn repeatedly, flashing your lights manically and gesticulating wildly to each driver as you pass. You should also do this ideally in a BMW.
On a more serious note, is it me, or are there just many more drivers nowadays that bimble along in their own little world, completely unaware of their surroundings? The number of times I come up against Mr or Mrs 40mph in a 60mph, who then enter a 30mph and still carry on doing 40mph, is unbelievably frequent.
ericmcn said:
too many people in England now are driving like people in Ireland - useless and scared $hitless to over take and cause huge tailbacks, that or they are driving crap cars that cant over take. I am not saying everyone needs to do 100 mph on main roads but sticking to the limit or under is just retarded and causes nothing but tailbacks. I over take slow drivers whenever I get an opportunity, relatively easy it has to be said
https://youtu.be/z7rObebW25s
Jesus, now I know what my dog feels like. A fan of the banana overtake, I see. https://youtu.be/z7rObebW25s
0.45 to 1.00 - to save anyone else watching the whole blasted thing.
rainmakerraw said:
ericmcn said:
too many people in England now are driving like people in Ireland - useless and scared $hitless to over take and cause huge tailbacks, that or they are driving crap cars that cant over take. I am not saying everyone needs to do 100 mph on main roads but sticking to the limit or under is just retarded and causes nothing but tailbacks. I over take slow drivers whenever I get an opportunity, relatively easy it has to be said
https://youtu.be/z7rObebW25s
Jesus, now I know what my dog feels like. A fan of the banana overtake, I see. https://youtu.be/z7rObebW25s
0.45 to 1.00 - to save anyone else watching the whole blasted thing.
Whereas if it were a cyclist posting videos from a "dashcam" and breaking the occasional rule/law, that would call for capital punishment. But he has "paid for these roads, dontcha know..." so he'll damned well use them just as he pleases...
...i mean, sticking to the speed limit? That's just for us "retarded" folks, right?
Perhaps the real retard here is the one that can't understand basic maths and physics? Because if everyone stuck to the speed limit, then there'd be no tailbacks because two bodies travelling at the same speed through the same space and being acted upon by the same forces will, within negligible tolerances, remain the same distance apart. Which is how it will work if/when we get autonomous cars. Which is what people who refuse to obey the law are inexorably driving our law-makers and tech companies toward.
I'm not suggesting that folk should not overtake. I'm all for passing the '40 mph everywhere' brigade, and I'm just as frustrated as anyone when speed limits keep getting reduced to cope with "lowest common denominator" drivers. But no matter how frustrating it is, there's no good reason to be overtaking a car doing 60 mph on a NSL SC road.
I love overtaking, and I was taught to overtake by my driving instructor, regularly doing so well before my test (Babs used to say that it was her duty to teach me to drive to the speed limit and the conditions, and if the way ahead was clear then I ought to pass slower vehicles). I do plenty of overtaking while I'm out solo, but far less when I have my wife alongside me, mainly because she can see less of the road ahead, and feels uncomfortable when I pull out to overtake because she can't see that the road ahead is clear like I can from the driving seat. So for her comfort and perception of safety I relent and instead of overtaking I drop back to allow space for someone who wants to pass to slot in in front of me if necessary. It's a fairly simple rule taught to me by my dad well before I reached driving age - either overtake, or drop back to let someone else overtake, never tuck yourself up close to the car ahead.
yellowjack said:
Perhaps the real retard here is the one that can't understand basic maths and physics? Because if everyone stuck to the speed limit, then there'd be no tailbacks because two bodies travelling at the same speed through the same space and being acted upon by the same forces will, within negligible tolerances, remain the same distance apart. Which is how it will work if/when we get autonomous cars. Which is what people who refuse to obey the law are inexorably driving our law-makers and tech companies toward.
mmm - car in front slows for rough area on road, because they are in a sportscar on low profile tyres - car behind is a 4x4 on air suspension...
car in front slows for wildlife on the road ahead - which has gone by the time of car 2
car in front has a driver looking for a turning - so going slightly slower
car in front has a driver who reckons that the road conditions mean that 50mph is more sensible than 60 - but car behind is happy with 60mph
may be basic maths and physics - but basic psychology might be more useful!
yellowjack said:
...there's no good reason to be overtaking a car doing 60 mph on a NSL SC road.
yellowjack said:
I love overtaking...
May not be legal, but assuming that it is safe, then I think you have just answered yourself...akirk said:
yellowjack said:
Perhaps the real retard here is the one that can't understand basic maths and physics? Because if everyone stuck to the speed limit, then there'd be no tailbacks because two bodies travelling at the same speed through the same space and being acted upon by the same forces will, within negligible tolerances, remain the same distance apart. Which is how it will work if/when we get autonomous cars. Which is what people who refuse to obey the law are inexorably driving our law-makers and tech companies toward.
mmm - car in front slows for rough area on road, because they are in a sportscar on low profile tyres - car behind is a 4x4 on air suspension...
car in front slows for wildlife on the road ahead - which has gone by the time of car 2
car in front has a driver looking for a turning - so going slightly slower
car in front has a driver who reckons that the road conditions mean that 50mph is more sensible than 60 - but car behind is happy with 60mph
may be basic maths and physics - but basic psychology might be more useful!
yellowjack said:
...there's no good reason to be overtaking a car doing 60 mph on a NSL SC road.
yellowjack said:
I love overtaking...
May not be legal, but assuming that it is safe, then I think you have just answered yourself...I was following a car following a luton van yesterday on the A41 southbound towards Wolverhampton from Stoke, lots of 60mph sections well sighted and the car made nil effort to overtake and didn't look as though it was looking either, I was hanging back so when a well sighted opportunity arose i could indicate, gain speed, pull out and pass.........did that happen? No after i'd indicated, raised my speed and pulled out, it couldnt have been more textbook, moron in front of me decides to swerve out with no indication from right under the vans rear bumper just as i approached his rear quarter.....I had to brake very hard and drop back in.....I guess that's why some folk shy away from overtakes because a) they don't pay attention to what's in front AND behind and get spooked b) others don't pay attention and put them at risk.
NewUsername said:
I was following a car following a luton van yesterday on the A41 southbound towards Wolverhampton from Stoke, lots of 60mph sections well sighted and the car made nil effort to overtake and didn't look as though it was looking either, I was hanging back so when a well sighted opportunity arose i could indicate, gain speed, pull out and pass.........did that happen? No after i'd indicated, raised my speed and pulled out, it couldnt have been more textbook, moron in front of me decides to swerve out with no indication from right under the vans rear bumper just as i approached his rear quarter.....I had to brake very hard and drop back in.....I guess that's why some folk shy away from overtakes because a) they don't pay attention to what's in front AND behind and get spooked b) others don't pay attention and put them at risk.
My guess? Just a driver that doesn't know how to perform an overtake, so waited until you pulled out to overtake them. They then presume it's safe. so either follow you out regardless, or in this case, fear that following you might not be safe so dive out desperately ahead of you because you've done all the required observation and planning for them...eta:
...so also: drivers who crawl along on a rural NSL road braking inappropriately, and apparently randomly. They're having a terrifying white-knuckle ride at 35/40 mph with all the scary corners and suchlike. Then you catch them at ~60 mph and (eventually) take an opportunity to pass. But instead of them fading into a distant memory, now you'll find them tucked up your tailpipe in every village 30 mph limit because now they can drive faster around bends because the car ahead is doing all the planning and setting what they assume is a safe speed because it isn't flying off the road into fields. Some folk just don't seem to know how to assess a road and plan their way through hazards at an appropriate speed, and prefer to let someone ahead of them do all that pesky thinking and concentrating. I'm the opposite. Even if a car ahead is driving at/above the speed limit, I would rather be ahead of them, because nine times out of ten they'll annoy me by being slow to pull away at lights/junctions, or brake too early/too late/in a corner. I'll not overtake them because I know that in truth doing so will save me no time and might antagonise them, but it irritates me when there is a car ahead on a SC road - I want to feel like I'm the one calling the shots and deciding where to brake and where to accelerate. Following another driver, even if the distance between cars is great, just feels more stressful, and lacking smoothness (for want of a better description...). Sometimes, on quiet roads, I'll even pull over to let the car ahead get further ahead, then resume my journey when i can no longer keep them in sight, just to regain the feeling of having the road to myself.
Edited by yellowjack on Wednesday 28th August 13:16
NewUsername said:
No after i'd indicated, raised my speed and pulled out, it couldnt have been more textbook,
You might wish to try a different overtaking technique. If you move fully offside without accelerating, you can get a proper 'last look' to ensure the overtake is on. It also gives you a chance to attract the attention of the driver(s) being overtaken, whether by them spotting you in the mirror, a short toot of the horn, or a flash of the headlights before you proceed. That would (usually) avoid them pulling out into your path without checking their mirror first. Obligatory Reg Local video.
rainmakerraw said:
NewUsername said:
No after i'd indicated, raised my speed and pulled out, it couldnt have been more textbook,
You might wish to try a different overtaking technique. If you move fully offside without accelerating, you can get a proper 'last look' to ensure the overtake is on. It also gives you a chance to attract the attention of the driver(s) being overtaken, whether by them spotting you in the mirror, a short toot of the horn, or a flash of the headlights before you proceed. That would (usually) avoid them pulling out into your path without checking their mirror first. Obligatory Reg Local video.
I get the philosophy though and will give it a go where the road layout/opportunity combines to make it viable.
NewUsername said:
rainmakerraw said:
NewUsername said:
No after i'd indicated, raised my speed and pulled out, it couldnt have been more textbook,
You might wish to try a different overtaking technique. If you move fully offside without accelerating, you can get a proper 'last look' to ensure the overtake is on. It also gives you a chance to attract the attention of the driver(s) being overtaken, whether by them spotting you in the mirror, a short toot of the horn, or a flash of the headlights before you proceed. That would (usually) avoid them pulling out into your path without checking their mirror first. Obligatory Reg Local video.
I get the philosophy though and will give it a go where the road layout/opportunity combines to make it viable.
- when you pull out parallel to your previous position for a last look, you are ready to go (correct gear / etc.) but you are also giving another opportunity for the car in front to spot you - they will show their colours and speed up at that point if they are going to - but you are in a safe place as you have no issue in returning - if you don't discover this until you start passing them, then it is too late for you to return behind them and you have an issue...
- if you have concerns about your car's ability to overtake from the same speed, then you should probably not be overtaking - you are either driving a Nissan Serena, or a 38 tonne truck! Get in the correct gear and you should have no issue as long as there is a safe opportunity to pass...
- if your process requires you to accelerate up to the car ahead and banana around it, then you have committed to the overtake way too early, before you have a full awareness as to whether it is clear ahead / how the other car will react / etc. - you are committing several seconds before the overtake, so you need a much much longer opportunity to overtake to allow for that extra time as well as the overtake time - it is very much riskier - and how do you abort if you have arrived at the back of the car ahead with a 20mph speed differential and then they move out? - very risky indeed...
there is a reason why the Police manual Roadcraft doesn't promote banana shaped overtakes - worth considering - and when done well it is elegant and subtle - other cars around should almost not notice you pass...
akirk said:
- if your process requires you to accelerate up to the car ahead and banana around it, then you have committed to the overtake way too early, before you have a full awareness as to whether it is clear ahead / how the other car will react / etc. - you are committing several seconds before the overtake, so you need a much much longer opportunity to overtake to allow for that extra time as well as the overtake time - it is very much riskier - and how do you abort if you have arrived at the back of the car ahead with a 20mph speed differential and then they move out? - very risky indeed...
there is a reason why the Police manual Roadcraft doesn't promote banana shaped overtakes - worth considering - and when done well it is elegant and subtle - other cars around should almost not notice you pass...
I never mentioned banana overtakes and getting close to the car in front before i pull out, you're mistaken? I still pull out well behind and back in well in front, the only difference is when i build my speed differential, as I said i'll try modifying the approach where appropriate and see what I think. there is a reason why the Police manual Roadcraft doesn't promote banana shaped overtakes - worth considering - and when done well it is elegant and subtle - other cars around should almost not notice you pass...
NewUsername said:
akirk said:
- if your process requires you to accelerate up to the car ahead and banana around it, then you have committed to the overtake way too early, before you have a full awareness as to whether it is clear ahead / how the other car will react / etc. - you are committing several seconds before the overtake, so you need a much much longer opportunity to overtake to allow for that extra time as well as the overtake time - it is very much riskier - and how do you abort if you have arrived at the back of the car ahead with a 20mph speed differential and then they move out? - very risky indeed...
there is a reason why the Police manual Roadcraft doesn't promote banana shaped overtakes - worth considering - and when done well it is elegant and subtle - other cars around should almost not notice you pass...
I never mentioned banana overtakes and getting close to the car in front before i pull out, you're mistaken? I still pull out well behind and back in well in front, the only difference is when i build my speed differential, as I said i'll try modifying the approach where appropriate and see what I think. there is a reason why the Police manual Roadcraft doesn't promote banana shaped overtakes - worth considering - and when done well it is elegant and subtle - other cars around should almost not notice you pass...
the whole point about the Roadcraft approach is that at the point where you move out there is no additional acceleration - your speed is the same as the car ahead, so you don't move forwards relative to the car being overtaken - this gives you an easy 'out' to return having aborted - and when you start accelerating, you do so from the opposite side of the road and at that point simply accelerate forwards... Therefore with this approach, all the initial lateral movement has no forward movement and so it is more of a triangular shape...
pulling out well behind and back well in front - could be good or could simply extend the overtake time and add risk...
it is one of those things that is very difficult to understand until you sit alongside someone doing it... and then it just makes so much sense!
akirk said:
NewUsername said:
akirk said:
pulling out well behind and back well in front - could be good or could simply extend the overtake time and add risk...
!
It certainly reduces the time spent on the opposite carriageway compared to the advice you're giving and I have to be certain that the opportunity is there so I probably choose safer opportunities as i require that space..... the shape of the overtake is exactly the same as your method, i'm unsure why you think it isn't, it's not possible to drive a car sideways at 90 degrees?.....its just the timing of the acceleration as I said, i'll have a look at modifying the approach where possible. !
NewUsername said:
akirk said:
pulling out well behind and back well in front - could be good or could simply extend the overtake time and add risk...
!
It certainly reduces the time spent on the opposite carriageway compared to the advice you're giving and I have to be certain that the opportunity is there so I probably choose safer opportunities as i require that space..... the shape of the overtake is exactly the same as your method, i'm unsure why you think it isn't, it's not possible to drive a car sideways at 90 degrees?.....its just the timing of the acceleration as I said, i'll have a look at modifying the approach where possible. !
1 - move laterally with no forward acceleration - this is a part of the decision making phase - is it clear to go / no / return / proceed / etc. - it is not a part of the overtake (though an overtake can follow on smoothly from it) - if looking for an overtake, then you may be out on the opposite side of the carriageway a few times and return until you find the overtaking opportunity - it is about gaining visibility and increasing observation
2 - the overtake - once it is on you are committing from a position that is already out on the opposite carriageway, so the time from moment of commitment to return is considerably less than an overtake from behind the car
So, yes, arguably there is more time out on the other carriageway, but it is a much more structure approach, and with much clearer options to abort, meaning that your time of risk is actually lower...
when you overtake in one move from behind a car, then you have already committed before you have full visibility - and the point at which the driver being overtaken reacts / the point at which you see the puddle ahead of him where he will swerve to avoid it / etc. is a point where you are already committed to the overtake - making it much riskier...
so, the Roadcraft overtake may have more time on the other carriageway, but it has less 'risk time' there - and if the difference in time is enough to make the overtake not possible, then it might be too risky an overtake anyway, with not enough contingency...
therefore it is about managing risk...
The point is if I’m nicely gapped to the car in front when I pull out then I’m not committed as I can just pull in again, plus once I’m out I’m exposed for less time. It really depends on the individual situation as I said and how much room there is
The thing we both rely on is that the overtakee has seen us, the flash or horn can be used in both circumstances and still doesn’t guarantee anything in a multi car scenario
The thing we both rely on is that the overtakee has seen us, the flash or horn can be used in both circumstances and still doesn’t guarantee anything in a multi car scenario
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