Dangerous overtaken driver

[WilliamWoollard]

Enut said:

So, using that logic, there is no need to indicate when leaving a motorway, assuming your speed means no one needs to alter their driving?

Pretty much yes. Again, why would they need to know? If there’s a chance they will find the information useful then I’ll indicate, if not, why bother?

[WilliamWoollard]

Enut said:

Dr Jekyll said:

No. If someone behind you might be planning to overtake you if you don't leave, or has the opportunity to move into lane 1 one you've left, then indicate. But if it makes no difference to anyone else, why indicate?

That's my point, how in the hell do you know what they are planning to do? At least by indicating you are informing other road users of your intention. Isn't that the whole point of indicating. It seems strange to me that people on an advanced driving forum are advocating an action (or lack or one) that would immediately lead to failing your basic driving test.

You 100% will not fail your basic driving test if you don’t signal when there is no one to benefit.

[Gojira]

WilliamWoollard said:

Gojira said:

Apparently so....

There seem to be a few folk here under the delusion that using your indicators is "Giving information to the enemy!"

So long as it isn't actually confusing, why wouldn't you indicate?

Because, as in the OP, indicating before you overtake gives the car you are about to pass time to accelerate to block you. Potentially with extremely serious consequences. As others report this to be a growing problem on the roads I am offering a solution that works for me. I don’t get people accelerating when I’m overtaking. I also rarely indicate when I’m about to overtake. It’s possible that I might just be lucky, or the two might be linked.

In my opinion there is more danger from indicating before an overtake than not.

And I -could- give you my opinion of people under the delusion that using your indicators is "Giving information to the enemy!"

To quote Mr McEnroe "You cannot be serious!"

And that's the polite version.....

[RobM77]

WilliamWoollard said:

If you need to indicate (to the overtakee) to make it a good overtake then it is not a good overtake.

Firstly, that's a load of rubbish and jolly dangerous advice - see my list on page one of reasons why indicating before an overtake is necessary for the person you're overtaking and others.

Secondly, the whole point of safe road driving is that you build up layers of safety to give others more of a chance and you more of a chance if you make a mistake. Road positioning and indicating show intent during overtaking. If you're not indicating at all, then you are dangling on a very thin thread, whereby the tiniest mistake in your observation, or the observation of the car you're overtaking, could result in an accident.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 25th November 09:32

[Enut]

Whilst I understand some of the logic to not indicating, I don't agree with it.

I have rarely had a car accelerate when I'm overtaking it and I always indicate my intentions. Not indicating in case the other driver is an idiot is strange logic to use.

I was taught by a very good driver (police advanced driver for many years) that if someone is in a position to see you indicate then you should indicate. It takes nothing to do so and I have yet to wear out an indicator bulb.

[Enut]

WilliamWoollard said:

Enut said:

Dr Jekyll said:

No. If someone behind you might be planning to overtake you if you don't leave, or has the opportunity to move into lane 1 one you've left, then indicate. But if it makes no difference to anyone else, why indicate?

That's my point, how in the hell do you know what they are planning to do? At least by indicating you are informing other road users of your intention. Isn't that the whole point of indicating. It seems strange to me that people on an advanced driving forum are advocating an action (or lack or one) that would immediately lead to failing your basic driving test.

You 100% will not fail your basic driving test if you don’t signal when there is no one to benefit.

Pretty sure you will if you don't indicate before an overtake or when leaving a motorway, which is what is being suggested here.

[WilliamWoollard]

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

If you need to indicate (to the overtakee) to make it a good overtake then it is not a good overtake.

Firstly, that's a load of rubbish and jolly dangerous advice - see my list on page one of reasons why indicating before an overtake is necessary for the person you're overtaking and others.

Secondly, the whole point of safe road driving is that you build up layers of safety to give others more of a chance and you more of a chance if you make a mistake. Road positioning and indicating show intent during overtaking. If you're not indicating at all, then you are dangling on a very thin thread, whereby the tiniest mistake in your observation, or the observation of the car you're overtaking, could result in an accident.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 25th November 09:32

Your list is rubbish. If there is a chance of any of those things happening you don't overtake, that's pretty basic stuff. A little blinky light won't save you if you balls up your observations. You complain of being blocked when overtaking yet also argue that indicating is necessary, I never get blocked and hardly ever indicate. If you want to stop people blocking your overtaking, try not indicating. If you want them to keep blocking you, keep indicating, I know where the greatest risk is for me.

[WilliamWoollard]

Enut said:

WilliamWoollard said:

Enut said:

Dr Jekyll said:

No. If someone behind you might be planning to overtake you if you don't leave, or has the opportunity to move into lane 1 one you've left, then indicate. But if it makes no difference to anyone else, why indicate?

That's my point, how in the hell do you know what they are planning to do? At least by indicating you are informing other road users of your intention. Isn't that the whole point of indicating. It seems strange to me that people on an advanced driving forum are advocating an action (or lack or one) that would immediately lead to failing your basic driving test.

You 100% will not fail your basic driving test if you don’t signal when there is no one to benefit.

Pretty sure you will if you don't indicate before an overtake or when leaving a motorway, which is what is being suggested here.

I'm certain you won't. I'm an ADI and I train driving instructors.

[RobM77]

WilliamWoollard said:

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

If you need to indicate (to the overtakee) to make it a good overtake then it is not a good overtake.

Firstly, that's a load of rubbish and jolly dangerous advice - see my list on page one of reasons why indicating before an overtake is necessary for the person you're overtaking and others.

Secondly, the whole point of safe road driving is that you build up layers of safety to give others more of a chance and you more of a chance if you make a mistake. Road positioning and indicating show intent during overtaking. If you're not indicating at all, then you are dangling on a very thin thread, whereby the tiniest mistake in your observation, or the observation of the car you're overtaking, could result in an accident.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 25th November 09:32

Your list is rubbish. If there is a chance of any of those things happening you don't overtake, that's pretty basic stuff. A little blinky light won't save you if you balls up your observations. You complain of being blocked when overtaking yet also argue that indicating is necessary, I never get blocked and hardly ever indicate. If you want to stop people blocking your overtaking, try not indicating. If you want them to keep blocking you, keep indicating, I know where the greatest risk is for me.

How you can defend such a dangerous attitude is a real worry. You need to take a serious look at how you're driving and how perfect you think your observation is. You don't even seem to understand the principle of small layers of safety (like an indicator) adding up to a greater whole. Why are you even on an advanced driving forum? I'm not trying to have some petty tit for tat on the internet, I really mean that - you are serious danger to yourself and others.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 27th November 08:43

[RobM77]

WilliamWoollard said:

I'm certain you won't. I'm an ADI and I train driving instructors.

[Gojira]

WilliamWoollard said:

I'm certain you won't. I'm an ADI and I train driving instructors.

And how many of them ask for refunds at the end of your course?

[Gojira]

WilliamWoollard said:

Your list is rubbish. If there is a chance of any of those things happening you don't overtake, that's pretty basic stuff. A little blinky light won't save you if you balls up your observations. You complain of being blocked when overtaking yet also argue that indicating is necessary, I never get blocked and hardly ever indicate. If you want to stop people blocking your overtaking, try not indicating. If you want them to keep blocking you, keep indicating, I know where the greatest risk is for me.

You are fking joking....

The first thing I was taught when I learnt to drive was "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre"

As you claim to be an ADI, when did that stop being a basic principle?

[Dr Jekyll]

Gojira said:

You are fking joking....

The first thing I was taught when I learnt to drive was "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre"

As you claim to be an ADI, when did that stop being a basic principle?

That means CONSIDER a signal and manoeuvre according to what you see in the mirror.

[Gojira]

Dr Jekyll said:

Gojira said:

You are fking joking....

The first thing I was taught when I learnt to drive was "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre"

As you claim to be an ADI, when did that stop being a basic principle?

That means CONSIDER a signal and manoeuvre according to what you see in the mirror.

But not what you can see through the windscreen?

WW is claiming it is wrong to indicate before overtaking, in case the bod in front decides to accelerate and block you...

[WilliamWoollard]

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

If you need to indicate (to the overtakee) to make it a good overtake then it is not a good overtake.

Firstly, that's a load of rubbish and jolly dangerous advice - see my list on page one of reasons why indicating before an overtake is necessary for the person you're overtaking and others.

Secondly, the whole point of safe road driving is that you build up layers of safety to give others more of a chance and you more of a chance if you make a mistake. Road positioning and indicating show intent during overtaking. If you're not indicating at all, then you are dangling on a very thin thread, whereby the tiniest mistake in your observation, or the observation of the car you're overtaking, could result in an accident.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 25th November 09:32

Your list is rubbish. If there is a chance of any of those things happening you don't overtake, that's pretty basic stuff. A little blinky light won't save you if you balls up your observations. You complain of being blocked when overtaking yet also argue that indicating is necessary, I never get blocked and hardly ever indicate. If you want to stop people blocking your overtaking, try not indicating. If you want them to keep blocking you, keep indicating, I know where the greatest risk is for me.

How you can defend such a dangerous attitude is a real worry. You need to take a serious look at how you're driving and how perfect you think your observation is. You don't even seem to understand the principle of small layers of safety (like an indicator) adding up to a greater whole. Why are you even on an advanced driving forum? I'm not trying to have some petty tit for tat on the internet, I really mean that - you are serious danger to yourself and others.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 27th November 08:43

I'm not the one that complains of being blocked whilst overtaking and refuses to consider ways to minimise that risk.

[WilliamWoollard]

Gojira said:

WilliamWoollard said:

Your list is rubbish. If there is a chance of any of those things happening you don't overtake, that's pretty basic stuff. A little blinky light won't save you if you balls up your observations. You complain of being blocked when overtaking yet also argue that indicating is necessary, I never get blocked and hardly ever indicate. If you want to stop people blocking your overtaking, try not indicating. If you want them to keep blocking you, keep indicating, I know where the greatest risk is for me.

You are fking joking....

The first thing I was taught when I learnt to drive was "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre"

As you claim to be an ADI, when did that stop being a basic principle?

How many times do you need people to tell you? CONSIDER giving a signal. Weigh up the risks and consider if a signal is the safest course of action. A lack of signal that doesn't affect anyone will not be marked as a fault on any UK driving test.

Here's the examiners marking criteria on it, if you're interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/guidance-for-driving-e...

[RobM77]

WilliamWoollard said:

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

If you need to indicate (to the overtakee) to make it a good overtake then it is not a good overtake.

Firstly, that's a load of rubbish and jolly dangerous advice - see my list on page one of reasons why indicating before an overtake is necessary for the person you're overtaking and others.

Secondly, the whole point of safe road driving is that you build up layers of safety to give others more of a chance and you more of a chance if you make a mistake. Road positioning and indicating show intent during overtaking. If you're not indicating at all, then you are dangling on a very thin thread, whereby the tiniest mistake in your observation, or the observation of the car you're overtaking, could result in an accident.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 25th November 09:32

Your list is rubbish. If there is a chance of any of those things happening you don't overtake, that's pretty basic stuff. A little blinky light won't save you if you balls up your observations. You complain of being blocked when overtaking yet also argue that indicating is necessary, I never get blocked and hardly ever indicate. If you want to stop people blocking your overtaking, try not indicating. If you want them to keep blocking you, keep indicating, I know where the greatest risk is for me.

How you can defend such a dangerous attitude is a real worry. You need to take a serious look at how you're driving and how perfect you think your observation is. You don't even seem to understand the principle of small layers of safety (like an indicator) adding up to a greater whole. Why are you even on an advanced driving forum? I'm not trying to have some petty tit for tat on the internet, I really mean that - you are serious danger to yourself and others.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 27th November 08:43

I'm not the one that complains of being blocked whilst overtaking and refuses to consider ways to minimise that risk.

Why do you think I haven't considered that option? It's the first and obvious thing one would think of.... and then immediately discount as being stupid and dangerous.

[WilliamWoollard]

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

If you need to indicate (to the overtakee) to make it a good overtake then it is not a good overtake.

Firstly, that's a load of rubbish and jolly dangerous advice - see my list on page one of reasons why indicating before an overtake is necessary for the person you're overtaking and others.

Secondly, the whole point of safe road driving is that you build up layers of safety to give others more of a chance and you more of a chance if you make a mistake. Road positioning and indicating show intent during overtaking. If you're not indicating at all, then you are dangling on a very thin thread, whereby the tiniest mistake in your observation, or the observation of the car you're overtaking, could result in an accident.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 25th November 09:32

Your list is rubbish. If there is a chance of any of those things happening you don't overtake, that's pretty basic stuff. A little blinky light won't save you if you balls up your observations. You complain of being blocked when overtaking yet also argue that indicating is necessary, I never get blocked and hardly ever indicate. If you want to stop people blocking your overtaking, try not indicating. If you want them to keep blocking you, keep indicating, I know where the greatest risk is for me.

How you can defend such a dangerous attitude is a real worry. You need to take a serious look at how you're driving and how perfect you think your observation is. You don't even seem to understand the principle of small layers of safety (like an indicator) adding up to a greater whole. Why are you even on an advanced driving forum? I'm not trying to have some petty tit for tat on the internet, I really mean that - you are serious danger to yourself and others.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 27th November 08:43

I'm not the one that complains of being blocked whilst overtaking and refuses to consider ways to minimise that risk.

Why do you think I haven't considered that option? It's the first and obvious thing one would think of.... and then immediately discount as being stupid and dangerous.

Fine, keep getting blocked then. I have a solution that has worked for me and has never caused me a problem in hundreds of overtakes. You keep doing it your way that does cause you problems then accuse me of being dangerous.

I'm out.

[Gojira]

WilliamWoollard said:

Gojira said:

WilliamWoollard said:

Your list is rubbish. If there is a chance of any of those things happening you don't overtake, that's pretty basic stuff. A little blinky light won't save you if you balls up your observations. You complain of being blocked when overtaking yet also argue that indicating is necessary, I never get blocked and hardly ever indicate. If you want to stop people blocking your overtaking, try not indicating. If you want them to keep blocking you, keep indicating, I know where the greatest risk is for me.

You are fking joking....

The first thing I was taught when I learnt to drive was "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre"

As you claim to be an ADI, when did that stop being a basic principle?

How many times do you need people to tell you? CONSIDER giving a signal. Weigh up the risks and consider if a signal is the safest course of action. A lack of signal that doesn't affect anyone will not be marked as a fault on any UK driving test.

Here's the examiners marking criteria on it, if you're interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/guidance-for-driving-e...

The bit in bold seems a fair bit stronger than CONSIDER.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how signalling my intentions to another road user who might be affected by them is a bad idea?

[RobM77]

WilliamWoollard said:

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

RobM77 said:

WilliamWoollard said:

If you need to indicate (to the overtakee) to make it a good overtake then it is not a good overtake.

Firstly, that's a load of rubbish and jolly dangerous advice - see my list on page one of reasons why indicating before an overtake is necessary for the person you're overtaking and others.

Secondly, the whole point of safe road driving is that you build up layers of safety to give others more of a chance and you more of a chance if you make a mistake. Road positioning and indicating show intent during overtaking. If you're not indicating at all, then you are dangling on a very thin thread, whereby the tiniest mistake in your observation, or the observation of the car you're overtaking, could result in an accident.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 25th November 09:32

Your list is rubbish. If there is a chance of any of those things happening you don't overtake, that's pretty basic stuff. A little blinky light won't save you if you balls up your observations. You complain of being blocked when overtaking yet also argue that indicating is necessary, I never get blocked and hardly ever indicate. If you want to stop people blocking your overtaking, try not indicating. If you want them to keep blocking you, keep indicating, I know where the greatest risk is for me.

How you can defend such a dangerous attitude is a real worry. You need to take a serious look at how you're driving and how perfect you think your observation is. You don't even seem to understand the principle of small layers of safety (like an indicator) adding up to a greater whole. Why are you even on an advanced driving forum? I'm not trying to have some petty tit for tat on the internet, I really mean that - you are serious danger to yourself and others.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 27th November 08:43

I'm not the one that complains of being blocked whilst overtaking and refuses to consider ways to minimise that risk.

Why do you think I haven't considered that option? It's the first and obvious thing one would think of.... and then immediately discount as being stupid and dangerous.

Fine, keep getting blocked then. I have a solution that has worked for me and has never caused me a problem in hundreds of overtakes. You keep doing it your way that does cause you problems then accuse me of being dangerous.

I'm out.

Yes, getting blocked is an occupational hazard of being a safe driver who lets others know of their intentions. I will continue indicating, and continue getting blocked. Occasionally an old person may take offence when I hold a door open for them, but does that mean I won't give way to elderly people and hold doors open for them? Why be an ahole just because a small fraction of others are?

It helps to do some maths here to appreciate the point that I, and others, are making. I complete on average about three overtakes per day on my commute. Therefore 'hundreds', as you say, would only take me 6 months (for 300-400). I'm not unusual; two others on my small team at work do the same sort of annual mileage commuting. Now, if we consider safe driving as having a 1 in 10 chance of an accident on my commute during my whole working life, that's 50 years of 240 days per year = 12,000 days of driving. 3 overtakes a day means 36,000 overtakes. So 1 in 10 would be 360,000; just over a third of a million before an error occurs - that's what you'd need to hit before you have that 1 in 10 chance during your driving life. These are the rare events that cause accidents and this is what advanced driving is all about - guarding against the extremely rare. A driver who's not advanced may just be guarding against the rare.

This is why I'm saying you can't trust your observation 100%. If I showed you 360,000 photos of a road, where a few of them had a hidden driveway up ahead, a runner crossing the road dressed in black, a motorbike in your blind spot - could you be certain of identifying these hazards correctly in all 360,000? Not in hundreds, but a third of a million? To err is human. This is why indicating is a good backup and failsafe. This is why we do all things like this when driving: shoulder checks before lane changes, rev-matching, both hands on the wheel etc. It's the 1 in a million that gets you. Obviously you don't need to do things that are too onerous (like never leaving your driveway), but indicating is literally just lifting a finger.

As someone above said, these are basics. Yes, advanced drivers view indicating as a form of communication, rather than something done as rote, but that doesn't mean you should forget the basics and the reasons why they exist, it simply means you alter the way and the timing with which you indicate.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 27th November 10:26