First rwd car need tips

First rwd car need tips

Author
Discussion

Toltec

6,184 posts

183 months

Saturday 13th June
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7mike said:
As a skydiver, we practice reserve drills constantly. They are incredibly simple but if the crap hit's the fan then they need to be so intuitive that they can be followed instantly regardless of pressure/stress/panic.

I doubt half a day on a skid pan or limit handling course would ensure the necessary skills are ingrained if something were to go wrong six months later. Given that virtually every driver has an over inflated opinion of their own ability anyway then a belief in their new found skills can far outweigh their ability to put them into practice intuitively.

Having said all that, I'd never discourage anyone from doing skid pan/ limit handling stuff it's great fun, just go into it with that knowledge in the back of the mind.
That is why going on Car Limits, or similar, activity days is really useful in between full driver training days.

RSTurboPaul

3,316 posts

218 months

Sunday 14th June
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Salted_Peanut said:
I used to agree with both aspects (on-road and limit handling) but the fascinating thing is that limit handling skills increase your chance of crashing. Bizarre - and counter intuitive - but true.

There are ample studies, and conclusive research, showing that improved vehicle handling skills significantly increase your odds of having a crash. It turns out that when you increase a driver's handling skills, their confidence increases beyond their skill level. There's been all manner of attempts (often in Scandinavia) to find a way to increase skid control skills without causing overconfidence. Nothing's worked.

People who haven't learned limit handling generally drive well below the limit. Hence they have far fewer accidents than "more skilled" drivers.
That's interesting, thank you for posting smile

I am a strong advocate for training and improvement, and knowing your and the vehicle's limits, so I wonder if there's a middle ground that reduces risk without increasing confidence too much.

One for greater minds than mine, I'm sure!


EDIT: Shouldn't hit Quote then get distracted with stuff before replying hours later without refreshing! Will have a read of that link above, thanks smile

Edited by RSTurboPaul on Sunday 14th June 01:45

smartie93

95 posts

125 months

Tuesday 16th June
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Salted_Peanut said:
I used to agree with both aspects (on-road and limit handling) but the fascinating thing is that limit handling skills increase your chance of crashing. Bizarre - and counter intuitive - but true.

There are ample studies, and conclusive research, showing that improved vehicle handling skills significantly increase your odds of having a crash. It turns out that when you increase a driver's handling skills, their confidence increases beyond their skill level. There's been all manner of attempts (often in Scandinavia) to find a way to increase skid control skills without causing overconfidence. Nothing's worked.

People who haven't learned limit handling generally drive well below the limit. Hence they have far fewer accidents than "more skilled" drivers.
I can vouch for this. Had to do limit handling training to get my test track licence. As a result I was confident that I could rectify any mistake I would come across, you then start stupidly putting the car sideways at every opportunity and inevitably you eventually get it wrong.

Thankfully I only hit a kerb hard, damaged a wheel and some body work. It was the confidence knock I needed though. I imagine this is quite a common story on this forum.

To the OP, driving a modern RWD doesn't really feel that different, unless your pushing on hard with all the systems disabled. Learn from others' mistakes and don't drive like a tosser and you'll be fine. They're s**t in the snow though!

Tommie38

361 posts

154 months

Monday 13th July
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Sheepy616 said:
Hello, I'm going from a awd mk7 golf r to a m235i bmw I'm 23 so unexperienced driver any tips on how not to end up in a hedge??
Forgive me for saying so OP but this post is a bit wet.

Drive within your limits if you want to be safe and drive outside them if you want to have more fun but probably crash.

You don’t need a bunch of people on an Internet forum telling you about ESP or oversteer.

You’re 23. Go find a Macdonalds car park and do some donuts FFS.

HTH biggrin

AyBee

9,227 posts

162 months

Monday 13th July
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Tommie38 said:
Sheepy616 said:
Hello, I'm going from a awd mk7 golf r to a m235i bmw I'm 23 so unexperienced driver any tips on how not to end up in a hedge??
Forgive me for saying so OP but this post is a bit wet.

Drive within your limits if you want to be safe and drive outside them if you want to have more fun but probably crash.

You don’t need a bunch of people on an Internet forum telling you about ESP or oversteer.

You’re 23. Go find a Macdonalds car park and do some donuts FFS.

HTH biggrin
This. Sounds more like a brag tbh!

Benbay001

5,491 posts

117 months

Sunday 19th July
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Im a bit late to the party, but ill add my 2p anyway.

Keep your hands at atleast half decent positions on the steering wheel. I see alot of people driving with one hand on the wheel at the 6 o'clock position and have no idea how they would react if any form of correction was needed.

dhutch

7,882 posts

157 months

Sunday 19th July
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brisel said:
Don't turn the ESP off. If you see the light flashing, think about what made that happen.
Can't fault this.

I've now had more rwd cars than front, and only crashed the fwd hatches, if maybe because they where the 1st and 3rd car.

Car two was a westfield, which I use for autotesting, which is great fun and much cheaper and lasting enjoyment than a trackday which I have also done. Would like to do a skid pan day but haven't yet.

Car 4 was an E36 318i compact with plastic rear tyres picked up for £600 which was a lot of fun, a little flick into a roundabout increased the enjoyment of the commute greatly! Lowish speed, inexpensive car, and was young enough to no think too much about the consequences.

Car 4 was an E46 330ci which is a lovely mile muncher and can put on a turn of speed, but you can't (I mean I'm sure you can) get it out of shape with the ESP turned on, and tbh with it turned off a combination of decent tyres and open diff means you can't get the back end out sensibly either, you would have to be pushing very hard and it would then bite you equally hard!

Enjoy it, don't think two much about which wheels are driven.

Daniel

RobXjcoupe

2,278 posts

51 months

Sunday 19th July
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If I’m honest and you are that worried, why buy a rwd car?
Sometimes I do wonder what other drivers think of themselves. Usually it’s the I’m brilliant no matter what type driver. I’m of the age group where cars I’ve owned had no electronic aids. Even now I’ve only got abs brakes on one.
My first car given to me was a 15 year old Mk2 escort 1.1 with 145 12” tyres and drum brakes front and rear was jittery in the wet. It was my first car though and didn’t know any different. Trying to power slide on wet grass was it’s highlights but with all its faults it wasn’t difficult to drive safely according to the road conditions.
Pulling out of junctions with a 150bhp, fwd and no lsd fast is difficult. That was a Mk2 Astra gte. Horses for courses, I drive according to the vehicle and it’s abilities rather than blame the vehicle for its inabilities because as a driver I’m lacking the skill to control properly. To drive fast is easy, doesn’t make you a good driver though wink

waremark

2,710 posts

173 months

Sunday 19th July
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Roadcraft style advanced road driver training as delivered by IAM and Rospa will do much more to keep you safe than any training or practice at limit handling. I drive powerful RWD cars and have had extensive limit handling practice but cannot remember having had to exercise any limit handling skills on the road in very many years. With ESP you just steer where you want the car to go - if it fails to do so you were going too fast.

Hopefully you will enjoy that with RWD the steering is not corrupted by application of power.

RobXjcoupe

2,278 posts

51 months

Sunday 19th July
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waremark said:
Roadcraft style advanced road driver training as delivered by IAM and Rospa will do much more to keep you safe than any training or practice at limit handling. I drive powerful RWD cars and have had extensive limit handling practice but cannot remember having had to exercise any limit handling skills on the road in very many years. With ESP you just steer where you want the car to go - if it fails to do so you were going too fast.

Hopefully you will enjoy that with RWD the steering is not corrupted by application of power.
Steering is corrupted with power on a rwd.

delta0

1,310 posts

66 months

Monday 20th July
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You will learn quickly and get used to it. Roll on off the accelerator a little more carefully on corners and take it easy in the wet.

waremark

2,710 posts

173 months

Monday 20th July
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RobXjcoupe said:
waremark said:
Roadcraft style advanced road driver training as delivered by IAM and Rospa will do much more to keep you safe than any training or practice at limit handling. I drive powerful RWD cars and have had extensive limit handling practice but cannot remember having had to exercise any limit handling skills on the road in very many years. With ESP you just steer where you want the car to go - if it fails to do so you were going too fast.

Hopefully you will enjoy that with RWD the steering is not corrupted by application of power.
Steering is corrupted with power on a rwd.
?

dvenman

161 posts

75 months

Tuesday 21st July
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delta0 said:
You will learn quickly and get used to it. Roll on off the accelerator a little more carefully on corners and take it easy in the wet.
Can I suggest "roll off the accelerator a little earlier for corners, balance in the corner, and more smoothly back on on the exit" ?

Slow in, fast out...

Salted_Peanut

421 posts

14 months

Thursday 23rd July
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RobXjcoupe said:
Steering is corrupted with power on a rwd.
Eh? confused

IJWS15

465 posts

45 months

Thursday 23rd July
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RSTurboPaul said:
Something made this century will have enough electronics to stop you killing yourself unless you're being an absolute dick - I moved from FWD to RWD with zero driving aids, which has been a somewhat fearful experience at times!

Skidpan session helped a lot, and at some point (when we're finally allowed to do so...) I'll be doing some airfield track time to get a handle on what happens at higher speeds.
Remember driving from Lichfield to Swindon a few years back for a meeting, as I left home it was just starting to snow, 20 miles north of Swindon there was 6", Swindon had none.

I saw six cars in hedges, all BMWs. The electronics hadn't stopped any of them being placed in the said hedges. Don't rely on the electronics, it can't defeat the laws of physics.

As someone who, at the age of 21 so inexperienced, was driving a Morris Minor on cross ply tyres be gentle with your right foot, especially in the wet.

waremark

2,710 posts

173 months

Friday 24th July
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If you want to drive in the snow get winter tyres

kiseca

8,357 posts

179 months

Wednesday 29th July
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smartie93 said:
Salted_Peanut said:
I used to agree with both aspects (on-road and limit handling) but the fascinating thing is that limit handling skills increase your chance of crashing. Bizarre - and counter intuitive - but true.

There are ample studies, and conclusive research, showing that improved vehicle handling skills significantly increase your odds of having a crash. It turns out that when you increase a driver's handling skills, their confidence increases beyond their skill level. There's been all manner of attempts (often in Scandinavia) to find a way to increase skid control skills without causing overconfidence. Nothing's worked.

People who haven't learned limit handling generally drive well below the limit. Hence they have far fewer accidents than "more skilled" drivers.
I can vouch for this. Had to do limit handling training to get my test track licence. As a result I was confident that I could rectify any mistake I would come across, you then start stupidly putting the car sideways at every opportunity and inevitably you eventually get it wrong.

Thankfully I only hit a kerb hard, damaged a wheel and some body work. It was the confidence knock I needed though. I imagine this is quite a common story on this forum.

To the OP, driving a modern RWD doesn't really feel that different, unless your pushing on hard with all the systems disabled. Learn from others' mistakes and don't drive like a tosser and you'll be fine. They're s**t in the snow though!
It makes sense. Similarly, people who can't swim are less likely to drown than people who can. Reason is that people who can swim are far more likely to be in conditions where drowning is possible.... now an experienced, strong swimmer is less likely to drown than an inexperienced weak swimmer, but to get that experience and skill, you need to start with neither and take the risks. Same would be true for on the limit car control. In order to get the experience and skill needed to reduce your chances of crashing, you need to practice lots and during that time you'll lose control quite a bit too, until you get good at it. It would be an awful lot of money spent on conditions where you can lose control and not bend something to get yourself to the point where you're likely to save it on the road.

I'm old enough to have had lots of early experience in RWD cars back when they weren't unusual, and have done quite a few skidpan courses and advanced road driving courses. The road driving ones were far more valuable to my road safety than the car control ones.


Magnum 475

1,898 posts

92 months

Monday 3rd August
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waremark said:
If you want to drive in the snow get winter tyres
This. BMWs on snow require two things:

- decent cold weather tyres
- the correct traction control mode

RTFM! There is a traction control mode for snow on BMWs (on non-M cars it's activated with a short push of the traction control button).

The BMWs that people see in hedges on snowy roads are usually driven by people with bald summer tyres and who don't understand how to switch the traction control system to the correct mode. It's an expensive lack of knowledge.

dhutch

7,882 posts

157 months

Monday 3rd August
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Magnum 475 said:
The [cars] that people see in hedges on snowy roads are usually driven by people with bald summer tyres and who don't understand [how to drive to the conditions.]
Fixed that for you!

By far an away not an BMW exclusive issue, and often 4x4s and fwd hot hatches are as bad or worse than a semi-executive semi-drivers car such as a bm!

I had a commute a few years ago which took me on a 20min cross country drive through derbyshire to a small and fairly remote industrial estate on what was a collection of farm buildings. No issues at all in a 330ci on summer tyres, yet winters or all-seasons would have helped a lot, but its just a combination of taking your time, and picking the right gear and not stopping during climbs.

Typically I left the traction control fully on, in the default position, which actually took all the skill out of maintaining traction on the accents. All that was left for the driver was to keep the speed low enough your didn't require the car to defy physics on the bends.

Daniel

Funk

22,262 posts

169 months

Monday 3rd August
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Don't use this setting: