Use of handbrake.
Discussion
Apologies if this has been covered, I couldn't find anything.
A friend of mine's daughter is learning to drive and in addition to her lessons she's taken her out for extra practice.
When coming to a stop at traffic lights for example, she instructed her daughter to apply the handbrake and put the car in neutral. It seems this is contrary to the instructor's advice, which is to hold the car on the foot brake, in first gear, clutch pedal depressed.
Now when I learnt, it was very definitely handbrake/neutral, and I understood the reasons why. Has it changed, and if so, why, or is the instructor wrong?
More basic than advanced driving, but thoughts welcome. Thanks.
A friend of mine's daughter is learning to drive and in addition to her lessons she's taken her out for extra practice.
When coming to a stop at traffic lights for example, she instructed her daughter to apply the handbrake and put the car in neutral. It seems this is contrary to the instructor's advice, which is to hold the car on the foot brake, in first gear, clutch pedal depressed.
Now when I learnt, it was very definitely handbrake/neutral, and I understood the reasons why. Has it changed, and if so, why, or is the instructor wrong?
More basic than advanced driving, but thoughts welcome. Thanks.
I am not an advanced driver but here is my take:
Sitting at a junction with a foot on the clutch and in gear is not good practice for two reasons: it will greatly increase clutch (release) bearing wear (and clutch wear if it (the clutch) is slipping) and it is not safe. There are several reasons why a foot could slip off the clutch pedal or be released by accident.
Sitting in neutral with foot on brake might be acceptable but not so much when dark for the obvious reason.
Sitting at a junction with a foot on the clutch and in gear is not good practice for two reasons: it will greatly increase clutch (release) bearing wear (and clutch wear if it (the clutch) is slipping) and it is not safe. There are several reasons why a foot could slip off the clutch pedal or be released by accident.
Sitting in neutral with foot on brake might be acceptable but not so much when dark for the obvious reason.
I think that teaching to sit in gear on the footbrake is teaching bad habits, personally.
I have two cars. One newer one with an electronic handbrake and auto-hold. Not much to say about that other than it is super handy especially in traffic or for hill starts. I engage the handbrake only at night when there is traffic behind because the auto-hold keeps the brake light on.
In my other car I have a standard handbrake. I will hold the car on the foot brake at lights but never in gear unless I know for sure I won’t be waiting long. Again, I’ll use the handbrake at night if there is anything behind me (even if that puts me into a minority).
I think the correct way to teach is handbrake and neutral. It’s the safest and is likely to be what an examiner expects to see. The red+amber stage of the lights is plenty time to engage clutch/gear and remove handbrake.
Once the test is passed and some confidence gained, “shortcuts” can be utilised when they’re convenient and suitable.
P.S. I am not an advanced driver, though I don’t think this is an advanced technique.
I have two cars. One newer one with an electronic handbrake and auto-hold. Not much to say about that other than it is super handy especially in traffic or for hill starts. I engage the handbrake only at night when there is traffic behind because the auto-hold keeps the brake light on.
In my other car I have a standard handbrake. I will hold the car on the foot brake at lights but never in gear unless I know for sure I won’t be waiting long. Again, I’ll use the handbrake at night if there is anything behind me (even if that puts me into a minority).
I think the correct way to teach is handbrake and neutral. It’s the safest and is likely to be what an examiner expects to see. The red+amber stage of the lights is plenty time to engage clutch/gear and remove handbrake.
Once the test is passed and some confidence gained, “shortcuts” can be utilised when they’re convenient and suitable.
P.S. I am not an advanced driver, though I don’t think this is an advanced technique.
Edited by markyb_lcy on Thursday 3rd December 18:06
This is not instructions on how to pass on a test, but:-
If you know the timing then
Long wait: parking brake on, into neutral, feet off both brake and clutch pedals.
Anticipating a short wait (because you aware that you are close to the lights going to red and amber), then stay in gear and depress the clutch. I would use the parking brake if it is a manual lever, you never fully know the slope, and some roads have depressions in whereby you can roll slightly forward or backward.
If you know the timing then
Long wait: parking brake on, into neutral, feet off both brake and clutch pedals.
Anticipating a short wait (because you aware that you are close to the lights going to red and amber), then stay in gear and depress the clutch. I would use the parking brake if it is a manual lever, you never fully know the slope, and some roads have depressions in whereby you can roll slightly forward or backward.
Thanks for the replies, which are pretty well what I've been doing for nearly 40 years. I can't think of a good reason to change that, though I can think of some not to.
Interesting about the hill start assist, but as not every car has it you'd need to know the correct procedure without. I'll see if I can find online what the correct action is for the driving examiner.
Interesting about the hill start assist, but as not every car has it you'd need to know the correct procedure without. I'll see if I can find online what the correct action is for the driving examiner.
col711 said:
I am not an advanced driver but here is my take:
Sitting at a junction with a foot on the clutch and in gear is not good practice for two reasons: it will greatly increase clutch (release) bearing wear (and clutch wear if it (the clutch) is slipping) and it is not safe. There are several reasons why a foot could slip off the clutch pedal or be released by accident.
Sitting in neutral with foot on brake might be acceptable but not so much when dark for the obvious reason.
Most automatic electric handbrakes illuminate the stupidly bright LED brake lights anyway, if that's your obvious reason.Sitting at a junction with a foot on the clutch and in gear is not good practice for two reasons: it will greatly increase clutch (release) bearing wear (and clutch wear if it (the clutch) is slipping) and it is not safe. There are several reasons why a foot could slip off the clutch pedal or be released by accident.
Sitting in neutral with foot on brake might be acceptable but not so much when dark for the obvious reason.
Funnily enough I have had the same discussion recently with my Son who is currently learning and a Friens who's duaghter has recently passe dher test. Chris, my lad's instructors car does have a manual handbrake but Rosie learnt in a car with an electric handbrake.
My take on it is that stiing at lights, junctions with the car ib gear, cutch down and foot on the brake is just plain wrong as follows:
Extra uneccessary wear on the clutch r4elease bearing and clutch itself.
If on a hill how do you, as a learner do a safe hill start without using the handbrake (which raises the whiole issue of teaching hill starts with an electric hand brake).
If the car is hit by another car from behind etc chances are both feet brake and clutch will coe off the pedals meaning the car is free to roll and also now in gear with the clutch engaged!!
Now I'm an old bugger and got my bike licence in 1977 and car in 1981 and I know things have changed but basic mechanics haven't so why the change? Makes no sense to me.
My take on it is that stiing at lights, junctions with the car ib gear, cutch down and foot on the brake is just plain wrong as follows:
Extra uneccessary wear on the clutch r4elease bearing and clutch itself.
If on a hill how do you, as a learner do a safe hill start without using the handbrake (which raises the whiole issue of teaching hill starts with an electric hand brake).
If the car is hit by another car from behind etc chances are both feet brake and clutch will coe off the pedals meaning the car is free to roll and also now in gear with the clutch engaged!!
Now I'm an old bugger and got my bike licence in 1977 and car in 1981 and I know things have changed but basic mechanics haven't so why the change? Makes no sense to me.
Pothole said:
col711 said:
I am not an advanced driver but here is my take:
Sitting at a junction with a foot on the clutch and in gear is not good practice for two reasons: it will greatly increase clutch (release) bearing wear (and clutch wear if it (the clutch) is slipping) and it is not safe. There are several reasons why a foot could slip off the clutch pedal or be released by accident.
Sitting in neutral with foot on brake might be acceptable but not so much when dark for the obvious reason.
Most automatic electric handbrakes illuminate the stupidly bright LED brake lights anyway, if that's your obvious reason.Sitting at a junction with a foot on the clutch and in gear is not good practice for two reasons: it will greatly increase clutch (release) bearing wear (and clutch wear if it (the clutch) is slipping) and it is not safe. There are several reasons why a foot could slip off the clutch pedal or be released by accident.
Sitting in neutral with foot on brake might be acceptable but not so much when dark for the obvious reason.
Note: if I am at the tail of a queue waiting, and cars are still arriving behind me, I will leave a car or two’s length in front, keep stop lamps lit (or even flash them on or off) until I am sure that the arriving cars have seen me and are slowing adequately, I will then reduce the gap in front. That is another scenario that the instructor may need to explain.
Personally if I'm only going to be stopped for a few seconds (eg a give way or stop sign) I'll hold it on the brakes with it in gear and the clutch in. if its a longer stop neutral and handbrake.
If I can't be bothered to do a 3 point turn handbrake and lots of lock... Sorry wrong type of handbrake use
If I can't be bothered to do a 3 point turn handbrake and lots of lock... Sorry wrong type of handbrake use
My impression is that this is another example of the system teaching something that's actually bad practice, either because it's easier or because it 'reflects the way people actually drive'. See also the thread about pulling up on the opposite side of the road.
OP - you're correct, and best practice is to secure the car with the parking brake and then take neutral if you're going to be there for more than a second or two.
Actually scratch that - best practice is to time your arrival at the hazard so you don't actually have to come to a halt, but that's not what you're asking.
OP - you're correct, and best practice is to secure the car with the parking brake and then take neutral if you're going to be there for more than a second or two.
Actually scratch that - best practice is to time your arrival at the hazard so you don't actually have to come to a halt, but that's not what you're asking.
Nobody getting into the implications of stop start? In most automatic cars the engine starts again if you release the footbrake. If you believe it is good practice to have the engine off during longer waits this encourages you to leave the car in gear with the foot on the footbrake - and it is clearly what the manufacturers expect you to do. In other cars there is a slight jerk as you transition from foot brake to parking brake - this is another encouragement to keep the foot on the footbrake. As to the arguments about clutch wear, I am not at all convinced that pressing and releasing twice is a better approach than pressing once and holding. But neither is an issue - clutch components don't wear out these days.
Pothole said:
How is this "advanced driving"?
It’s a classic example of an ‘’Advanced Driving” discussion isn’t it? The majority of people (having passed their tests) would probably sit there with clutch in and foot on brake. An examiner on an advanced test would expect to see handbrake, out of gear and then only showing brake lights if there is a reason to do so. If the driver did something different, then an explanation would be expected.It’s not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but there aren’t really any good reasons not to do it properly.
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