Thread Crush - Overtake

[Foss62]

I suppose I’ve had about half a dozen ROADAR three yearly re-tests now although it’s been a long while since the last one due to the covid restrictions.
In the recent ones at least, the same (serving Police officer) examiner has reminded me in the preamble never to let pre-conceptions about the test get in the way of safety. If an overtake turned out to need a few more mph then go for it.
That always made a lot of sense to me. With overtaking there is an increased possibility of other road users (sometimes deliberately) turning a well planned manoeuvre into something quite uncomfortable and braking your way out of it may not always be the safest choice.

[waremark]

vonhosen said:

DocSteve said:

Armchair_Expert said:

Yes, very good advice. "Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of an expert. Although alert he gives the impression of being completely relaxed. He drives in a calm, controlled style without fuss or flourish, progressing smoothly and unobtrusively".

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

Roadcraft.
There's more to the quoted excerpt too, it continues,

"They are always in the correct place on the road, travelling at the correct speed, with the correct gear engaged & they achieve this desirable state by concentrating, planning ahead & driving systematically".

Isn't that great? Has it been carried through from the first edition to the most recent?

I would like to amend it slightly, by changing 'the correct' in each case to 'a suitable' and then I think it still applies perfectly.

[Armchair_Expert]

Foss62 said:

I suppose I’ve had about half a dozen ROADAR three yearly re-tests now although it’s been a long while since the last one due to the covid restrictions.
In the recent ones at least, the same (serving Police officer) examiner has reminded me in the preamble never to let pre-conceptions about the test get in the way of safety. If an overtake turned out to need a few more mph then go for it.
That always made a lot of sense to me. With overtaking there is an increased possibility of other road users (sometimes deliberately) turning a well planned manoeuvre into something quite uncomfortable and braking your way out of it may not always be the safest choice.

Sound advice. Common sense and safety are always paramount.

Another example is when you overtake close to or approaching a lesser limit ( think NSL into a 30 ). Ideally your plan would not lead you to come into conflict with the car your overtaking, but if for any reason you end up closer than you would want post overtake, maintain some momentum and delay your arrival speed at the limit a few car lengths into it so as not keep everything fluid and meet expectations.

[DocSteve]

waremark said:

vonhosen said:

DocSteve said:

Armchair_Expert said:

Yes, very good advice. "Quiet efficiency is the hallmark of an expert. Although alert he gives the impression of being completely relaxed. He drives in a calm, controlled style without fuss or flourish, progressing smoothly and unobtrusively".

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

Roadcraft.
There's more to the quoted excerpt too, it continues,

"They are always in the correct place on the road, travelling at the correct speed, with the correct gear engaged & they achieve this desirable state by concentrating, planning ahead & driving systematically".

Isn't that great? Has it been carried through from the first edition to the most recent?

I would like to amend it slightly, by changing 'the correct' in each case to 'a suitable' and then I think it still applies perfectly.

Apologies, it seems I am thinking of the wrong book - but that quote is from a very old version of Roadcraft; I presumed the somewhat sexist approach would not be in Roadcraft. The current version, with regard to overtaking, also states "be prepared to change gear if necessary" and seems to cover many more aspects relevant to modern driving.

Coming back to the issue of overtaking and power advantage etc, a well planned overtake is perfectly possible and, as previously mentioned, if you come across a complete lunatic who wants to create a dangerous situation then it's best to abandon. Avoiding making the "contact" position until it is necessary and not roaring up behind the overtake subject vehicle are a couple of ways to avoid antagonising the driver. Also, it is possible to have a significant power advantage over the majority of cars on the roads these days if you are driving something decent but I agree that a 520d vs a modern hatch may have parity. However, an overtake is not a rolling drag race and it should be possible to execute something safe with suitable planning and reading of the situation.

[vonhosen]

DocSteve said:

Apologies, it seems I am thinking of the wrong book - but that quote is from a very old version of Roadcraft; I presumed the somewhat sexist approach would not be in Roadcraft.

Yes, you'd have hoped not.
It's from late 70s, early 80's.

Which is why I adjusted it to 'they' rather than 'he'.

[anonymous-user]

kiethton said:

Solocle said:

I raise you the car sat behind a tractor, bendy NSL B road, close enough that they couldn't see past the thing. I held back, the view opened up, so I moved offside and accelerated swiftly past them both.

I was on my bicycle

That's brilliant haha

It was probably my wife. She can’t even overtake tractors.

[M4cruiser]

Sort of on topic, from the IAM magazine recently:
"First, ask whether you really need to overtake. If a vehicle's travelling at 50mph in a 60mph zone, is it essential you get past? Almost certainly not."
.. and then:-
"Of course, there are times when you encounter slow-moving vehicles such as tractors. Then you need to plan so you can overtake safely."

[ChocolateFrog]

Foot flat to the floor, get the overtake done, lift off when you're past and coast back down to the limit.

Not in 20/30 or 40 zones obviously.

[Toltec]

ChocolateFrog said:

Foot flat to the floor, get the overtake done, lift off when you're past and coast back down to the limit.

Not in 20/30 or 40 zones obviously.

The problem with that being watching your speedo heading down past 90mph once you are back on the left hand side.

[waremark]

ChocolateFrog said:

Foot flat to the floor, get the overtake done, lift off when you're past and coast back down to the limit.

Not in 20/30 or 40 zones obviously.

Not my style - though it may depend on the performance of the vehicle you are driving as well as on the circumstances.

[Dr Jekyll]

M4cruiser said:

Sort of on topic, from the IAM magazine recently:
"First, ask whether you really need to overtake. If a vehicle's travelling at 50mph in a 60mph zone, is it essential you get past? Almost certainly not."
.. and then:-
"Of course, there are times when you encounter slow-moving vehicles such as tractors. Then you need to plan so you can overtake safely."

This is an attitude I don't understand. It isn't 'essential' to overtake even the slowest moving vehicle. But if you have caught up with another vehicle obviously you are going faster so you should start looking for an overtake straight away. You may not find an opportunity but look for it anyway. If a safe overtaking opportunity presents itself then why not take it?
After all, if you stay behind the 50MPH vehicle and they then get stuck behind a tractor, that's two opportunities you need not just one, and the process of looking for an overtake isn't really any different from the observation you should be doing anyway.

It's quite interesting to be a passenger with a driver stuck behind a slower vehicle. One minute they are looking ahead trying to work out if there will be an opportunity, then they decide it's too much trouble to look for an overtake and you can actually see the concentration go. They slump in the seat and stop looking any further ahead than the car in front.

[Toltec]

M4cruiser said:

Sort of on topic, from the IAM magazine recently:
"First, ask whether you really need to overtake. If a vehicle's travelling at 50mph in a 60mph zone, is it essential you get past? Almost certainly not."

Essential, probably not
Preferable, yes.

50 mphers are definitely towards the lower skilled, more dangerous end of road users when a true 85th%ile might be 70 - 80 mph.

[Dr Jekyll]

waremark said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Foot flat to the floor, get the overtake done, lift off when you're past and coast back down to the limit.

Not in 20/30 or 40 zones obviously.

Not my style - though it may depend on the performance of the vehicle you are driving as well as on the circumstances.

+1

Just because you're overtaking doesn't mean you have to accelerate continuously. When passing a line of traffic it's good to be able to slip back into the queue i you want to without any drama, preferably without braking.

[waremark]

Dr Jekyll said:

It's quite interesting to be a passenger with a driver stuck behind a slower vehicle. One minute they are looking ahead trying to work out if there will be an opportunity, then they decide it's too much trouble to look for an overtake and you can actually see the concentration go. They slump in the seat and stop looking any further ahead than the car in front.

I can believe that is the case for some drivers - but since most drivers don't look for overtakes anyway I am not sure what sort of driver it would apply to. Many a good driver would decide that the odds of an overtake being on are now quite low and the benefit limited and would choose to relax, increase the following distance and perhaps change to a higher gear. That would not involve slumping in the seat nor ceasing to maintain a suitable visual scan.

[Foss62]

M4cruiser said:

Sort of on topic, from the IAM magazine recently:
"First, ask whether you really need to overtake. If a vehicle's travelling at 50mph in a 60mph zone, is it essential you get past? Almost certainly not."
.. and then:-
"Of course, there are times when you encounter slow-moving vehicles such as tractors. Then you need to plan so you can overtake safely."

Would the definition of ‘essential’ depend on whether you were on an advanced test? Unless IAM is now very different from ROADAR, then you would be expected to go for an overtake in that sort of situation if safe, legal and improving progress with respect to the road situation, so it seems a strange thing to put in the magazine.

[waremark]

Foss62 said:

M4cruiser said:

Sort of on topic, from the IAM magazine recently:
"First, ask whether you really need to overtake. If a vehicle's travelling at 50mph in a 60mph zone, is it essential you get past? Almost certainly not."
.. and then:-
"Of course, there are times when you encounter slow-moving vehicles such as tractors. Then you need to plan so you can overtake safely."

Would the definition of ‘essential’ depend on whether you were on an advanced test? Unless IAM is now very different from ROADAR, then you would be expected to go for an overtake in that sort of situation if safe, legal and improving progress with respect to the road situation, so it seems a strange thing to put in the magazine.

For both IAM and ROADAR tests, expectations vary to a significant extent between different examiners. The official view in both organisations would be that you should not attempt an overtake unless you can reasonably expect to complete it safely and without upsetting other road users within the speed limit. Under those terms of reference, there are few situations in the crowded south east where you can overtake a vehicle doing 50 in a 60 zone. Now if the vehicle is doing 40 or 45 .....

All examiners would agree that if after the start of an overtake safety would be compromised by sticking to the speed limit then you should go over the limit.

Some examiners might be happy for a candidate to plan as well as execute an overtake which requires a more flexible attitude to the limit to complete it safely.

[Foss62]

waremark said:

Foss62 said:

M4cruiser said:

Sort of on topic, from the IAM magazine recently:
"First, ask whether you really need to overtake. If a vehicle's travelling at 50mph in a 60mph zone, is it essential you get past? Almost certainly not."
.. and then:-
"Of course, there are times when you encounter slow-moving vehicles such as tractors. Then you need to plan so you can overtake safely."

Would the definition of ‘essential’ depend on whether you were on an advanced test? Unless IAM is now very different from ROADAR, then you would be expected to go for an overtake in that sort of situation if safe, legal and improving progress with respect to the road situation, so it seems a strange thing to put in the magazine.

For both IAM and ROADAR tests, expectations vary to a significant extent between different examiners. The official view in both organisations would be that you should not attempt an overtake unless you can reasonably expect to complete it safely and without upsetting other road users within the speed limit. Under those terms of reference, there are few situations in the crowded south east where you can overtake a vehicle doing 50 in a 60 zone. Now if the vehicle is doing 40 or 45 .....

All examiners would agree that if after the start of an overtake safety would be compromised by sticking to the speed limit then you should go over the limit.

Some examiners might be happy for a candidate to plan as well as execute an overtake which requires a more flexible attitude to the limit to complete it safely.

I can’t disagree with any of that, but it’s the ‘need’ and ‘essential’ that I found a bit strange. My understanding has always been that if you just ambled round on an advanced test, albeit safely, you probably wouldn’t pass and certainly wouldn’t get a silver or gold in ROSPA. The examiners look for ‘progress’ where it is possible (and also I think some sense of interest and enjoyment in what you are doing). Fine to explain about why the 50 overtake was not on, but I think not fine to talk about ‘need’ or whether it was ‘essential’.

[Armchair_Expert]

Dr Jekyll said:

+1

Just because you're overtaking doesn't mean you have to accelerate continuously. When passing a line of traffic it's good to be able to slip back into the queue i you want to without any drama, preferably without braking.

Side mirrors, squirt of throttle then subtle lift in order to slot into a suitable gap. All very sexy.

[Armchair_Expert]

Foss62 said:

My understanding has always been that if you just ambled round on an advanced test, albeit safely, you probably wouldn’t pass and certainly wouldn’t get a silver or gold in ROSPA.

By recognizing and understanding the reasons why an overtake may not be on in a given set of circumstances, you sometimes tick more score boxes than than you would if you performed an overtake.

I would say there is more sparkle and conversational matter around an overtake that you were looking for, and potentially had closed up for, even moved offside for, but then decided to abort owing to hidden vision / farm turning / whatever it may be. If your driving movements are smooth, fluid and logical then I would suggest you have demonstrated more AD concepts by looking for and considering the overtake, continuing to to assess it then calling it off owing to your continuous dynamic risk assessment. Far better that than simply nipping past a slow mover on a straight piece of featureless road.

[Dr Jekyll]

Armchair_Expert said:

By recognizing and understanding the reasons why an overtake may not be on in a given set of circumstances, you sometimes tick more score boxes than than you would if you performed an overtake.

I would say there is more sparkle and conversational matter around an overtake that you were looking for, and potentially had closed up for, even moved offside for, but then decided to abort owing to hidden vision / farm turning / whatever it may be. If your driving movements are smooth, fluid and logical then I would suggest you have demonstrated more AD concepts by looking for and considering the overtake, continuing to to assess it then calling it off owing to your continuous dynamic risk assessment. Far better that than simply nipping past a slow mover on a straight piece of featureless road.

Sure, but the point is you have considered it. As opposed to deciding overtaking isn't essential so you won't bother to look for an opportunity.