Thread Crush - Overtake
Discussion
Tyre Tread said:
Julian64 I owe you an apology. It was M4cruiser I quoted earlier who made it sound like only the privileged should be able to overtake.
No, not the privileged, the trained.The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
M4cruiser said:
Tyre Tread said:
Julian64 I owe you an apology. It was M4cruiser I quoted earlier who made it sound like only the privileged should be able to overtake.
No, not the privileged, the trained.The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
M4cruiser said:
No, not the privileged, the trained.
The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
Well, what do you mean by 'trained'? Are we talking about receiving formal instruction from an IAM Observer? Are we talking about a seasoned road user who has years of experience under their belt? Or do you mean 'common sense to recognise when an overtake isn't on'?The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
I consider myself an 'average but mostly competent' driver. I'm still very green, having only held my licence for 20 months, I've had a crash and a couple of close calls, but for the most part I drive considerately and safely, with a view to what's around me - both in the immediate 'far-near-sides-rear' aspect and the things which are out of sight but could happen.
I've - safely! - overtaken other vehicles on single carriageways where the road and my car have been appropriate for such a manoeuvre. It requires a plan but it fundamentally requires common sense to realise when an overtake isn't on and an attitude which doesn't prioritise overtaking at the expense of everything else; trying to save a few seconds could cost you your day at best, and your life at worst - but of course, you already know that.
Tyre Tread said:
nonsequitur said:
ScoobyChris said:
I overtook a lady yesterday who was doing 20 mph in a 40 zone. I didn’t need to break the speed limit or make the car all noisy to safely complete the manoeuvre and my reward, looking in the mirror, was a round of applause.
I was so chuffed and glowing with pride!
Chris
i think that was ironic applause.I was so chuffed and glowing with pride!
Chris
AMC243 said:
I consider myself an 'average but mostly competent' driver. I'm still very green, having only held my licence for 20 months, I've had a crash and a couple of close calls , but for the most part I drive considerately and safely, with a view to what's around me
I've - safely! - overtaken other vehicles on single carriageways where the road and my car have been appropriate for such a manoeuvre.
I've - safely! - overtaken other vehicles on single carriageways where the road and my car have been appropriate for such a manoeuvre.
M4cruiser said:
Tyre Tread said:
I was always taught to minimise "TED" (Time Exposed to Danger" - Plan it, execute it and get back into lane safely.
Yes, but do you think the average driver is taught that?Edited by PhilAsia on Monday 28th June 11:02
PhilAsia said:
M4cruiser said:
Tyre Tread said:
I was always taught to minimise "TED" (Time Exposed to Danger" - Plan it, execute it and get back into lane safely.
Yes, but do you think the average driver is taught that?Edited by PhilAsia on Monday 28th June 11:02
Tyre Tread said:
M4cruiser said:
... Joe public really shouldn't be doing car/car overtakes it on two-way, single-carriageway A roads. It's different on multi-lane roads, and where the speed differential is large (such as overtaking a push-bike). Motorbike/car overtakes are different again.
Really? Never heard such utter tosh.
"Joe Public"
I was always taught to minimise "TED" (Time Exposed to Danger" - Plan it, execute it and get back into lane safely.
Mind you, in over 40 years of driving and approaching a million miles I have died many, many times as a result of overtaking.
I'm of an age where I was taught to drive by my dad in the 1980s. When over taking slower vehicles was encouraged, and to be honest, I still believe that if you are doing 45 mph on a straight road which has a 60 speed limit, in the dry, on a clear day, you are a poor driver. If you meet a slower vehicle, and it is safe to overtake, you should do so as a matter of course. Not doing so creates a queue of traffic and makes it more difficult for the cars behind to.over take.
That said, I have taken that too far at times. It's a balance. Probably not sensible to.attempt a 15 car over take in the dark.and rain. And something I stopped doing a few years ago.
What I've also stopped doing is over taking when my wife is in the car. Her perception of what is safe, from.a different seat, and with a different driving history, is such that the mumsnet/brake type bull s
t that she somehow believes, just ducks up my whole day. The fact is that cross country, on a B road, it takes twice as long to get anywhere if she's driving.
Fast single carriage way A roads I find most frustrating. I have driven the A41 from.Wolverhampton, to Chester many many times over the last 35 years, in vehicles ranging from.the most gutless Fiat 126 through a selection of mid sized motorbikes, average family cars, and the odd fast car. I know Every straight, and every bend, I know where to.position the car, to get a good line of sight, and exactly when to start accelerating, well before the straight on which I'm going to be over taking. Multiple vehicles.
M4cruiser said:
I
Declaring myself to be an IAM member (of many years standing) usually attracts a few boos to start with, but I may as well declare it. Also I was an IAM observer (but not currently).
In fairness, the only people I see booing the IAM are those who've actually, y'know, been members of the IAM and encountered the sort of Walts and Road Captains it attracts these days.Declaring myself to be an IAM member (of many years standing) usually attracts a few boos to start with, but I may as well declare it. Also I was an IAM observer (but not currently).
M4cruiser said:
another is offsiding, where the police will (can) go onto the wrong side of a two-way road to improve the view ahead, whereas the public can (should) go only up to the white centre line.
Police pursuit drivers receive a huge amount of training to be able to do an overtake safely, and can exceed the limit only when blue lights are on.
Both utterly and completely wrong.Police pursuit drivers receive a huge amount of training to be able to do an overtake safely, and can exceed the limit only when blue lights are on.
Using the other side of the road is a technique available to everyone, and the fact that 99 percent of the public do not do so is only down to the fact 99 percent of the public have no interest in AD or improving their skills. Nor do they have to. However it is a technique that needs to be understood in order for it to be used safely. Knitting together a series of bends by apexing and straight lining is a very rewarding thing, added to when you have bends that are either shallow enough in depth or have sufficient vision to remain offside.
Being offside allows greater vision around left handers and when behind others greatly increases vision. However, huge caveat being the gain in hanging offside to achieve this vision can often be outweighed by the adverse reactions of others both in front and behind. Those in front may brake / panic in confusion and those behind may try and close the gap. Equally when apexing a series of bends you need to have the ability to read the roads suitability to do so, where are the offside driveways / hazards, where are the junctions and signs to warn of them, are there any gaps in vision meaning you cannot see the full picture e.t.c. This takes experience and self analysis to perfect. Have you even thought of factors like ramblers who may merge from the undergrowth and only be looking to their right e.t.c. - so many factors to consider.
Police drivers are not exempt from careless or dangerous driving - it is nothing to do with them being police drivers that allow use of the offside lane. It can feel unnatural driving in the offside lane however sometimes it is the safest place to be.
Police pursuit drivers get training specific to pursuits - police response and advanced drivers get training in overtaking as this is one of the core foundation skills of AD. Police exemptions ( of which there are 3 ) do NOT need or rely on use of visual and audible warning equipment. In the 12 odd weeks of driving courses I clocked up in the job, around 80% of it is in unmarked cars using no warning equipment - all the equipment does is allow the public to react to your presence and make it simpler for you to make progress in the long run. Multiple uses every day of police vehicle using exemptions but not warning equipment in order to catch up to vehicles of interest, or for other police purposes where the equipment simply is not required.
Being offside allows greater vision around left handers and when behind others greatly increases vision. However, huge caveat being the gain in hanging offside to achieve this vision can often be outweighed by the adverse reactions of others both in front and behind. Those in front may brake / panic in confusion and those behind may try and close the gap. Equally when apexing a series of bends you need to have the ability to read the roads suitability to do so, where are the offside driveways / hazards, where are the junctions and signs to warn of them, are there any gaps in vision meaning you cannot see the full picture e.t.c. This takes experience and self analysis to perfect. Have you even thought of factors like ramblers who may merge from the undergrowth and only be looking to their right e.t.c. - so many factors to consider.
Police drivers are not exempt from careless or dangerous driving - it is nothing to do with them being police drivers that allow use of the offside lane. It can feel unnatural driving in the offside lane however sometimes it is the safest place to be.
Police pursuit drivers get training specific to pursuits - police response and advanced drivers get training in overtaking as this is one of the core foundation skills of AD. Police exemptions ( of which there are 3 ) do NOT need or rely on use of visual and audible warning equipment. In the 12 odd weeks of driving courses I clocked up in the job, around 80% of it is in unmarked cars using no warning equipment - all the equipment does is allow the public to react to your presence and make it simpler for you to make progress in the long run. Multiple uses every day of police vehicle using exemptions but not warning equipment in order to catch up to vehicles of interest, or for other police purposes where the equipment simply is not required.
Armchair_Expert said:
Using the other side of the road is a technique available to everyone, and the fact that 99 percent of the public do not do so is only down to the fact 99 percent of the public have no interest in AD or improving their skills. Nor do they have to. However it is a technique that needs to be understood in order for it to be used safely. Knitting together a series of bends by apexing and straight lining is a very rewarding thing, added to when you have bends that are either shallow enough in depth or have sufficient vision to remain offside.
Being offside allows greater vision around left handers and when behind others greatly increases vision. However, huge caveat being the gain in hanging offside to achieve this vision can often be outweighed by the adverse reactions of others both in front and behind. Those in front may brake / panic in confusion and those behind may try and close the gap. Equally when apexing a series of bends you need to have the ability to read the roads suitability to do so, where are the offside driveways / hazards, where are the junctions and signs to warn of them, are there any gaps in vision meaning you cannot see the full picture e.t.c. This takes experience and self analysis to perfect. Have you even thought of factors like ramblers who may merge from the undergrowth and only be looking to their right e.t.c. - so many factors to consider.
Police drivers are not exempt from careless or dangerous driving - it is nothing to do with them being police drivers that allow use of the offside lane. It can feel unnatural driving in the offside lane however sometimes it is the safest place to be.
Police pursuit drivers get training specific to pursuits - police response and advanced drivers get training in overtaking as this is one of the core foundation skills of AD. Police exemptions ( of which there are 3 ) do NOT need or rely on use of visual and audible warning equipment. In the 12 odd weeks of driving courses I clocked up in the job, around 80% of it is in unmarked cars using no warning equipment - all the equipment does is allow the public to react to your presence and make it simpler for you to make progress in the long run. Multiple uses every day of police vehicle using exemptions but not warning equipment in order to catch up to vehicles of interest, or for other police purposes where the equipment simply is not required.
I'm glad someone posted this in order to settle the nonsense posted by M4cruiser. Thanks for a sensible and accurate contribution. I thought I'd come back onto this forum to see if there was anything interesting being discussed but disappointly it seems that instead of discussing how to overtake safely and use the public roads better in general there is a melee of incorrect statements, polarised opinions and posts of an utterly irrelevant nature. Being offside allows greater vision around left handers and when behind others greatly increases vision. However, huge caveat being the gain in hanging offside to achieve this vision can often be outweighed by the adverse reactions of others both in front and behind. Those in front may brake / panic in confusion and those behind may try and close the gap. Equally when apexing a series of bends you need to have the ability to read the roads suitability to do so, where are the offside driveways / hazards, where are the junctions and signs to warn of them, are there any gaps in vision meaning you cannot see the full picture e.t.c. This takes experience and self analysis to perfect. Have you even thought of factors like ramblers who may merge from the undergrowth and only be looking to their right e.t.c. - so many factors to consider.
Police drivers are not exempt from careless or dangerous driving - it is nothing to do with them being police drivers that allow use of the offside lane. It can feel unnatural driving in the offside lane however sometimes it is the safest place to be.
Police pursuit drivers get training specific to pursuits - police response and advanced drivers get training in overtaking as this is one of the core foundation skills of AD. Police exemptions ( of which there are 3 ) do NOT need or rely on use of visual and audible warning equipment. In the 12 odd weeks of driving courses I clocked up in the job, around 80% of it is in unmarked cars using no warning equipment - all the equipment does is allow the public to react to your presence and make it simpler for you to make progress in the long run. Multiple uses every day of police vehicle using exemptions but not warning equipment in order to catch up to vehicles of interest, or for other police purposes where the equipment simply is not required.
Of course it is illegal to exceed the speed limit. That is not a matter that needs any debate (and by saying this I am not saying one should not exceed the speed limit should they wish to and consider it safe to do so) but what surely needs discussion and indeed accuracy as per the above is the art and skill of driving safely and enjoyably on the public road. People don't generally do well at things they don't enjoy....
DocSteve said:
Of course it is illegal to exceed the speed limit. That is not a matter that needs any debate (and by saying this I am not saying one should not exceed the speed limit should they wish to and consider it safe to do so) but what surely needs discussion and indeed accuracy as per the above is the art and skill of driving safely and enjoyably on the public road. People don't generally do well at things they don't enjoy....
I'm quite good at making safe progress at speeds above the speed limit. Because of peer pressure, and the implications of getting points on my licence, and the way that speed limits are policed via cameras, I no longer enjoy driving very much at all.
Peer pressure being my wife's attitude if I go 1 mph over the limit with her in the passenger seat, the implications if geting a NIP through the post, would be days of grief from her.
The policing of speed through cameras is the nail in the coffin of enjoyment. given that I was stopped for speeding 5 times in the first 10 years of my driving career and never got a single point, and yet in the next 10 years I got 3 separate Speeding tickets, (although spaced out so never more than 3 points on my licence) all achieved through cameras.
That said, I will always overtake if it is safe and legal to do so, even if it only saves me 1 minute.
Unfortunately passenger perception of safe is often incorrect.
FWIW I agree. I disagree wih the mantra that speed is unsafe in itself, it is the way in which it is used that makes it so. I also hate the fact that we are policed by cameras who have no discretion or knowledge of peoples ability or perception / intentions at the time. However I also accept that if you creep north of the limit then on your head be it - that is the risk of playing and you have to accept the consequences.
There are plenty of roads but also techniques one can employ to drive spiritedly on the public road without fear of being caught by the soulless camera network. Many military roads and land are surrounded by B roads that are fun and complex to drive, and are unpoliced owing to the complications of it being MOD land. That's just one example. Another example would be using AD vision to scan back from the horizon each time you exit a bend or junction, if your eyesight is good enough then any fluorescent chevrons or yellow jacket ahead should be apparent. That said, sometimes camera vans are white with no chevrons, I can't be sure but are there not also blue ones? If so then you may have to widen your mental checklist of what is a "risk" and react accordingly. Most of the time though the absence of any van or "risk" provides you with some reassurance prior to the next "opening up of vision". It is also true that hand held speed devices can be used to record speeds of vehicles in front and travelling away from it ( think motorway slip roads / hidden areas on a B road with vegetation ) . All you can do is be mindful of this and in your nearside mirror as you pass. Observation, observation, observation. There will always be risk and the effectiveness of minimizing it lies only with you as the driver.
The "passenger perception of danger" thing strikes a chord with me - I often have this conversation with my wife. Consider this scenario:
Driving through a series of bends on a single carriageway, at the national limit of 60mph. Vision is good that you can use the crown of the road ( combined with your own side ) to simply maintain momentum with minimum steering input, so less tyre wear and enhanced stablilty in general. Its all going swimmingly and your generally straightening the line taken between bends. As you approach a slight left hander your vision is marred by the nearside vegetation so you react in good time, nearside mirror and come away from the crown under deceleration, in order to enter the left hander at a speed your able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. You preparing to accelerate away again once your limit points starts to move, but your not there yet and about to enter the bend.
At the exact point at which your offside wheels move to the left of the white lines ( you having been aware of your inability to use any opposing carriageway ) a vehicle appears towards you, exiting the bend and going the other way. They have taken the bend fairly swiftly, but they for whatever reason, are shocked at your presence and form the view that you are travelling "too fast" for the bend. They are incorrect, this is merely an opinion they have formed as they have been "driving these roads for years and never had an accident" ( think typical 40 in a 30 zone then remain at 40 in the NSL ). As a result, they beep their horn as they pass, the dopler effect being heard within your cabin.
Your passenger wife, who is not AD trained or interested, now looks at you like your a dangerous moron, because you have been driving at pace, using the other side of the road, and now you have caused someone else to beep their horn and shake their fist. In her view the other driver "must be right" because the drive felt fast and she doesn't understand the levels of safety you have employed, or the idiotic mindset of the oncoming driver.
So in this scenario - you have been safe, progressive, mechanically sympathetic and aware of your full surroundings. You deserve praise. However, the perception from others both within your car and outside is that you are the problem. It drives me nuts.
There are plenty of roads but also techniques one can employ to drive spiritedly on the public road without fear of being caught by the soulless camera network. Many military roads and land are surrounded by B roads that are fun and complex to drive, and are unpoliced owing to the complications of it being MOD land. That's just one example. Another example would be using AD vision to scan back from the horizon each time you exit a bend or junction, if your eyesight is good enough then any fluorescent chevrons or yellow jacket ahead should be apparent. That said, sometimes camera vans are white with no chevrons, I can't be sure but are there not also blue ones? If so then you may have to widen your mental checklist of what is a "risk" and react accordingly. Most of the time though the absence of any van or "risk" provides you with some reassurance prior to the next "opening up of vision". It is also true that hand held speed devices can be used to record speeds of vehicles in front and travelling away from it ( think motorway slip roads / hidden areas on a B road with vegetation ) . All you can do is be mindful of this and in your nearside mirror as you pass. Observation, observation, observation. There will always be risk and the effectiveness of minimizing it lies only with you as the driver.
The "passenger perception of danger" thing strikes a chord with me - I often have this conversation with my wife. Consider this scenario:
Driving through a series of bends on a single carriageway, at the national limit of 60mph. Vision is good that you can use the crown of the road ( combined with your own side ) to simply maintain momentum with minimum steering input, so less tyre wear and enhanced stablilty in general. Its all going swimmingly and your generally straightening the line taken between bends. As you approach a slight left hander your vision is marred by the nearside vegetation so you react in good time, nearside mirror and come away from the crown under deceleration, in order to enter the left hander at a speed your able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. You preparing to accelerate away again once your limit points starts to move, but your not there yet and about to enter the bend.
At the exact point at which your offside wheels move to the left of the white lines ( you having been aware of your inability to use any opposing carriageway ) a vehicle appears towards you, exiting the bend and going the other way. They have taken the bend fairly swiftly, but they for whatever reason, are shocked at your presence and form the view that you are travelling "too fast" for the bend. They are incorrect, this is merely an opinion they have formed as they have been "driving these roads for years and never had an accident" ( think typical 40 in a 30 zone then remain at 40 in the NSL ). As a result, they beep their horn as they pass, the dopler effect being heard within your cabin.
Your passenger wife, who is not AD trained or interested, now looks at you like your a dangerous moron, because you have been driving at pace, using the other side of the road, and now you have caused someone else to beep their horn and shake their fist. In her view the other driver "must be right" because the drive felt fast and she doesn't understand the levels of safety you have employed, or the idiotic mindset of the oncoming driver.
So in this scenario - you have been safe, progressive, mechanically sympathetic and aware of your full surroundings. You deserve praise. However, the perception from others both within your car and outside is that you are the problem. It drives me nuts.
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