IAM/ROSPA and Negative Perceptions
Discussion
How can we overcome the widespread perceptions that IAM/ROSPA are organisations for the terminally dull ?
Clearly these types of organisations will atract more than their fair share of flat-cappers, but fundamentally, advanced driving belongs to [i]people like us[/i].
How can we take it back ?
Clearly these types of organisations will atract more than their fair share of flat-cappers, but fundamentally, advanced driving belongs to [i]people like us[/i].
How can we take it back ?
Toughy.
That is the perception, and I have to say that that perception was borne out in the most by my local group.
Having said that, most of the people I went out with (save a couple of miserable old farts) were keen drivers and into their cars - (2 I particularly rememberm one with a kitcar, another a modified MX-5). Several said off-the-record that they were happy that I was driving at appropriate speeds, even if they were above (and below!) the limit at times.
When people have asked me about IAM I have summed it up with "making progress safely" - imagine you could get where you were going in a much more relaxed manner, smoothly, with sympathy for you car, but much more quickly, and much more safely : that's advanced driving.
It does need a younger petrolheaded image. They have done a good thing with the MaxPower partnership thing. I wish the local meetings to me were more relevant. I went along to one to get a feel for it and sat through somebody's holiday slides FFS! Frankly it's set up like a local knitting circle and I have avoided any more of them like the plague. Hence my driving standards have fallen.
So, in summary:
1. a brief (eg "advanced driving means making progress safely"
2. a younger, car-enthusiast image (without alienating people not interested so much, just wanting to drive safely)
3. more support for associates and members outside the drives
That is the perception, and I have to say that that perception was borne out in the most by my local group.
Having said that, most of the people I went out with (save a couple of miserable old farts) were keen drivers and into their cars - (2 I particularly rememberm one with a kitcar, another a modified MX-5). Several said off-the-record that they were happy that I was driving at appropriate speeds, even if they were above (and below!) the limit at times.
When people have asked me about IAM I have summed it up with "making progress safely" - imagine you could get where you were going in a much more relaxed manner, smoothly, with sympathy for you car, but much more quickly, and much more safely : that's advanced driving.
It does need a younger petrolheaded image. They have done a good thing with the MaxPower partnership thing. I wish the local meetings to me were more relevant. I went along to one to get a feel for it and sat through somebody's holiday slides FFS! Frankly it's set up like a local knitting circle and I have avoided any more of them like the plague. Hence my driving standards have fallen.
So, in summary:
1. a brief (eg "advanced driving means making progress safely"
2. a younger, car-enthusiast image (without alienating people not interested so much, just wanting to drive safely)
3. more support for associates and members outside the drives
A good awareness campaign would help .... using 'real' cars at a younger audience - for those who appreciate cars - TVRs, max-laxxed Citroens, fords, etc, etc.
And push through the various car mags - top gear, max power, etc, etc .....
Basically use real [younger] people with dream cars ... ie - it's not 75 year old folk in old rovers and Hondas (and note for the record - I have an old Honda).
Having a textual 1 inch square ad on the 2nd last page of irrelevant/untargetted magazines does not help.
Actually ..... they should run a campaign .... get a load of journos out for a day - from relevant mags - and get them a ride with Don-esque type folks in a Tiv, etc, etc .... eye-catching cars, and extoll the additional virtues - insurance - less likely to get points/pulled.
Then get the journos to do a spread in their respective mags.
Perhaps attend the various shows with a stand - and cars .... cars that will generate traffic and pull punters in.
Perhaps focus on specific individiuals ... Johnny is 22, spent £30k on maxxing his £500 Nova, etc, etc ....
I know IAM (for example) are a charity and limited budgets - so a lot of this kind of stuff would have to volunteer driven via local groups.
Perhaps the local groups do it already? I dunno.
Just a late and tired brain dump. I'll read this tomorrow and go "Oh no ...."
K
And push through the various car mags - top gear, max power, etc, etc .....
Basically use real [younger] people with dream cars ... ie - it's not 75 year old folk in old rovers and Hondas (and note for the record - I have an old Honda).
Having a textual 1 inch square ad on the 2nd last page of irrelevant/untargetted magazines does not help.
Actually ..... they should run a campaign .... get a load of journos out for a day - from relevant mags - and get them a ride with Don-esque type folks in a Tiv, etc, etc .... eye-catching cars, and extoll the additional virtues - insurance - less likely to get points/pulled.
Then get the journos to do a spread in their respective mags.
Perhaps attend the various shows with a stand - and cars .... cars that will generate traffic and pull punters in.
Perhaps focus on specific individiuals ... Johnny is 22, spent £30k on maxxing his £500 Nova, etc, etc ....
I know IAM (for example) are a charity and limited budgets - so a lot of this kind of stuff would have to volunteer driven via local groups.
Perhaps the local groups do it already? I dunno.
Just a late and tired brain dump. I'll read this tomorrow and go "Oh no ...."
K
Good question, bor.
Not easy. Especially as whilst inside I am still eighteen I'm afraid my exterior appearance is that of a forty year old Company Director.
Largely the IAM preaches to the converted. Simply being the kind of person who wants to go on an IAM course is probably enough for you to be less likely to have a prang...because you'll show adequate caution whilst driving. You then go on the IAM for fun.
One of the things I think could get more youngsters benefitting (who are the people we really MUST be trying to help as they're the ones who die, mostly) is by marketing to the 17 year olds just passing their first test that not only can they be safer and drive better but that they can save some money on their insurance.
When you are 17 £85 quid to get an £85 reduction every year thereafter on your insurance looks attractive! Parents can also help: "You can drive my car - but you've got to pass your Advanced Test first!"
I'm afraid that's the way to get those who need it most to partake of some training - and some will still behave like dicks on the road after because no amount of training can eliminate recklessness.
As to taking back Advanced Driving from the flat cap brigade. I'm doing it by inflitrating the IAM/RoSPA with Petrolheads. Me in this instance. As more petrolheads join me we'll change 'em from the inside.
If you look at the results of the recent poll where 80+ % of IAM members viewed scameras as revenue generators and nowt else I'd say its WORKING!
Not easy. Especially as whilst inside I am still eighteen I'm afraid my exterior appearance is that of a forty year old Company Director.
Largely the IAM preaches to the converted. Simply being the kind of person who wants to go on an IAM course is probably enough for you to be less likely to have a prang...because you'll show adequate caution whilst driving. You then go on the IAM for fun.
One of the things I think could get more youngsters benefitting (who are the people we really MUST be trying to help as they're the ones who die, mostly) is by marketing to the 17 year olds just passing their first test that not only can they be safer and drive better but that they can save some money on their insurance.
When you are 17 £85 quid to get an £85 reduction every year thereafter on your insurance looks attractive! Parents can also help: "You can drive my car - but you've got to pass your Advanced Test first!"
I'm afraid that's the way to get those who need it most to partake of some training - and some will still behave like dicks on the road after because no amount of training can eliminate recklessness.
As to taking back Advanced Driving from the flat cap brigade. I'm doing it by inflitrating the IAM/RoSPA with Petrolheads. Me in this instance. As more petrolheads join me we'll change 'em from the inside.
If you look at the results of the recent poll where 80+ % of IAM members viewed scameras as revenue generators and nowt else I'd say its WORKING!
I dunno. I'm 35, I'm not a boy-racer, I don't speed round built-up estates, or go too fast in bad weather. I do, after 2 decades of driving, think I've worked out how to handle my car safely at speed.
I don't feel any need to take any kind of advanced driving course. I think the only reason I would is if it gave me cheaper insurance.
I can also see a danger. I know I am not a perfect driver, I make mistakes. I can't help thinking that holding an advanced driving certificate might make some people think they can never make a mistake and are always in the right.
I don't feel any need to take any kind of advanced driving course. I think the only reason I would is if it gave me cheaper insurance.
I can also see a danger. I know I am not a perfect driver, I make mistakes. I can't help thinking that holding an advanced driving certificate might make some people think they can never make a mistake and are always in the right.
Yugguy said:
I can also see a danger. I know I am not a perfect driver, I make mistakes. I can't help thinking that holding an advanced driving certificate might make some people think they can never make a mistake and are always in the right.
I think you'll find its the opposite. People generally go get an Advanced Driving qualification because they know they're not a perfect driver, know they make mistakes and worry that they could do better.
I'm sure there must be the odd tosser who because he passed an IAM test in 1964 thinks he's entitled to drive like a muppet - but I've never met one.
WHilst I've met a good few people though who drive like tossers whilst believing they're brilliant not one of them ever got to the end of an IAM course!
Genuinely. We occasionally get some bloke (usually) turn up who is determined to disagree with anything he's being taught, is convinced he knows best, despite it being obvious to everyone else that this is demonstrably untrue, who is looking for the IAM to "rubber stamp" his driving - so he can continue to drive as he always has done but with a wholly erroneously held view that he's on the moral high ground when it comes to any driving situation.
Such people do not pass. In fact they get the little talk fairly quickly that goes "you can use your £85 or you can waste it - its up to you".
I do think the IAM needs to find a way to encourage new (and younger) joiners to feel that it is NOT an elitist organisation and they can join, be accepted, and learn something.
Trouble is a LOT of the people who stay in the IAM are driving enthusiasts. These people (myself included) can frighten off "regular" car drivers from believing they can join and get something out of it because the moment words like "torque" or "turn-in" or "downshift" (driving jargon) gets used it all seems beyond reach. Which it isn't. At all.
Yugguy: Everyone can get something out of IAM/RoSPA. Why not give it a shot. Pass. And then decide if it makes you worse or better. I'm certain the answer will be better - if you give it a chance!
Yugguy said:
Fair points. But what would I get out of it?
Maybe nothing. Maybe a lot! That's for you to decide.
Generally people who attend get some improvements to some of the following:
1) Observation and safety
2) Smoothness - ride and comfort
3) Car control
4) Confidence in less familiar situations
5) Manouvering
6) PROGRESS - particularly through traffic and on rural roads
That's not an exhaustive list - but its some of the areas people tell me they feel they've improved at.
I improved some aspects of most of those.
Stop local groups having events evenings like...
..skittles night... visit to local museums ( non car related ones )...
...that kind of thing!!
have evening drive outs... full weekend drive outs... I think teh car groups need to take a few tips from the IAM bike groups... no one sees them as fuddy-duddies!
..skittles night... visit to local museums ( non car related ones )...
...that kind of thing!!
have evening drive outs... full weekend drive outs... I think teh car groups need to take a few tips from the IAM bike groups... no one sees them as fuddy-duddies!
Don said:
Genuinely. We occasionally get some bloke (usually) turn up who is determined to disagree with anything he's being taught, is convinced he knows best, despite it being obvious to everyone else that this is demonstrably untrue, who is looking for the IAM to "rubber stamp" his driving.....
I'm not condoning a loon however....
From the way you describe your bunch/branch this is exactly what you're doing (convinced you're right, and unable to accept other POV's)! I can only speak for my contacts with IAM in the '70s where they were a bunch of BOFs with string-backed leather driving gloves, flat caps and a know-all (read ferk-all) attitude! They should in 2005 get a grip on their driving and teaching skills, realise that what was good for a 1950s 3 speed Anglia with poor drum brakes is NOT a standard for 2005 and that the immediacy of the instantaneous decicion making due in the majority to extremely high trafic concentrations is now much more of a priority than teaching "no downchange when braking" and other outdated statements!!!! Electronics have taken these decisions away from your average numpty, but of course they are correct in the extremely narrow minded context that they are quoted by IAM!
I have been on many road safety courses (and was an Army driving instructor for cars, bikes, tracked vehicles and HGV, and drove CP) and know that my driving can always be improved but also realise that quick decisiontaking and quick action is more important than any rigid adherance to an outdated "rule book" written at the time when the red flag was mandatory......
I do hope that IAM has progressed more than my 1970's clichéd impression allows me to see, but by some (not all) of the positions quoted here it does not appear to have.....
JMGS4 said:It depends on your driving style. Are you reactive or proactive? Do you find yourself in a sticky situation and get out of it with your "quick decision taking and quick action" or do you have heightened observation, situational awareness and risk analysis skills such that you immediately identify a potentially sticky situation developing and make sure you do not get into it?
[I] know that my driving can always be improved but also realise that quick decision taking and quick action is more important than any rigid adherance to an outdated "rule book" written at the time when the red flag was mandatory
For me the latter scenario is what marks out the advanced driver.
>> Edited by JonRB on Thursday 8th September 08:42
JMGS...
The point you are making is an interesting one.
I'll make a counter-point and make of it what you will.
The Police many years back had a big problem with accidents. Their drivers were pranging patrol cars on the way to incidents. We may complain about this today but back then it was a *real* issue.
So they decided to do something about. In consulation with a range of people, including race drivers who knew a thing or two about car control, they came up with a System of driving designed to build "time to react" right in to all driving plans and manouvers.
It worked. Accidents went down.
Now some of it was probably just getting people to think about their driving carefully. Some of it was what they were being taught.
So the IAM/ROSPA et al (yes there are others) all jumped on the bandwagon. After all - if this "System" reduced stressed coppers' accidents surely it could do the same for the general public!?
It works. Statistically, that is. Now why it works one can argue about. Is it just that people spend time thinking about their driving? It could be that the kind of person predisposed to going on an Advanced Driving course is also the kind of person statistically predisposed to having 20% less accidents - that particular correlation is rather hard to investigate!
But it works.
Not that other things might not work too, you understand...in fact they clearly DO. Being experienced for example. Being a bit older and more cautious. All these things reduce the likelihood of having a prang - and probably more than having exemplary car control...
The IAM can advise a but of caution - but it can't teach it! It can tell you to go get experience - but experience can't be taught! What it CAN do is provide some "knowledge".
Now - as to whether or not IAM techniques are "outdated".
Some probably ARE. As fantastic auto-boxes, CVT transmissions, flappy-paddle-rev-matching-computerised-downshifts, electric-gearless turn up worrying about clutch-drag-drive-wheel braking will become irrelevant - THE COMPUTER will put a stop to it!
For those of us with manual transmissions and no computer there are two choices - rev match on the downshift with heel and toe (if car and skills allow) or rev match on the downshift using the System.
Is this terribly important given the difficulty of learning it? Well - its a LOT less important than looking out the windscreen and being aware and observant...but we deal with THAT too!
Most people coming to the IAM *want* to learn some car control skills as well as improving their observation and planning.
So what if the computer can do it? Most people don't have one just yet!
That brings me on to other aspects of the System. Like - getting your braking done BEFORE the hazard. Yes I know that modern tyres have MASSES of grip and people can brake/accelerate in tight corners and get away with it on a daily basis for years...but one day they won't! A poor surface, leaves, wet, something. And suddenly a driving gaffe they'be built into their driving habit becomes a trip to the hedge!
Then there's STEERING. Did you know "Roadcraft" covers "Rotational" steering and even recommends where its useful? This is in recognition of the usefulness of the technique...
People who want to criticise the System as being "outdated" usually pull out that old chestnut - without realising that the Roadcraft book actually *does* get updated. Despite the fact that nearly all its advice is as good now as it ever was - and those parts which aren't get changed.
The point I was making about individuals turning up the IAM for a "rubber stamp" is irrelevant to the above. It is a "real" issue, however. Very, very few fantastic, highly skilled, technically knowledgable drivers turn up at the IAM. They're usually doing something else - like driving diplomats or winning Formula 1 races. But there's the odd one that turns up who thinks all those things are true...
I wonder if they ever wonder why they're not in the WRC?
Sorry. Long post. Hope you got my drift. I'm not trying to confrontational or rude.
The point you are making is an interesting one.
I'll make a counter-point and make of it what you will.
The Police many years back had a big problem with accidents. Their drivers were pranging patrol cars on the way to incidents. We may complain about this today but back then it was a *real* issue.
So they decided to do something about. In consulation with a range of people, including race drivers who knew a thing or two about car control, they came up with a System of driving designed to build "time to react" right in to all driving plans and manouvers.
It worked. Accidents went down.
Now some of it was probably just getting people to think about their driving carefully. Some of it was what they were being taught.
So the IAM/ROSPA et al (yes there are others) all jumped on the bandwagon. After all - if this "System" reduced stressed coppers' accidents surely it could do the same for the general public!?
It works. Statistically, that is. Now why it works one can argue about. Is it just that people spend time thinking about their driving? It could be that the kind of person predisposed to going on an Advanced Driving course is also the kind of person statistically predisposed to having 20% less accidents - that particular correlation is rather hard to investigate!
But it works.
Not that other things might not work too, you understand...in fact they clearly DO. Being experienced for example. Being a bit older and more cautious. All these things reduce the likelihood of having a prang - and probably more than having exemplary car control...
The IAM can advise a but of caution - but it can't teach it! It can tell you to go get experience - but experience can't be taught! What it CAN do is provide some "knowledge".
Now - as to whether or not IAM techniques are "outdated".
Some probably ARE. As fantastic auto-boxes, CVT transmissions, flappy-paddle-rev-matching-computerised-downshifts, electric-gearless turn up worrying about clutch-drag-drive-wheel braking will become irrelevant - THE COMPUTER will put a stop to it!
For those of us with manual transmissions and no computer there are two choices - rev match on the downshift with heel and toe (if car and skills allow) or rev match on the downshift using the System.
Is this terribly important given the difficulty of learning it? Well - its a LOT less important than looking out the windscreen and being aware and observant...but we deal with THAT too!
Most people coming to the IAM *want* to learn some car control skills as well as improving their observation and planning.
So what if the computer can do it? Most people don't have one just yet!
That brings me on to other aspects of the System. Like - getting your braking done BEFORE the hazard. Yes I know that modern tyres have MASSES of grip and people can brake/accelerate in tight corners and get away with it on a daily basis for years...but one day they won't! A poor surface, leaves, wet, something. And suddenly a driving gaffe they'be built into their driving habit becomes a trip to the hedge!
Then there's STEERING. Did you know "Roadcraft" covers "Rotational" steering and even recommends where its useful? This is in recognition of the usefulness of the technique...
People who want to criticise the System as being "outdated" usually pull out that old chestnut - without realising that the Roadcraft book actually *does* get updated. Despite the fact that nearly all its advice is as good now as it ever was - and those parts which aren't get changed.
The point I was making about individuals turning up the IAM for a "rubber stamp" is irrelevant to the above. It is a "real" issue, however. Very, very few fantastic, highly skilled, technically knowledgable drivers turn up at the IAM. They're usually doing something else - like driving diplomats or winning Formula 1 races. But there's the odd one that turns up who thinks all those things are true...
I wonder if they ever wonder why they're not in the WRC?
Sorry. Long post. Hope you got my drift. I'm not trying to confrontational or rude.
Your points appreciated, Don, and I don't find them confrontational at all; however I did state that my view is from the 1970's as I've lived on the continent since then! I just hope that the outdated is deleted by the IAM (where appropriate) and where someone does not have the appropriate computer add-ons (even a Micra has them) that they will use the "old" methods!
Any road training which improves driving standards is to be greatly praised, especially regarding the extremely poor standard of roadcraft and vehicular skills which I see now every time I visit the UK (just comparing it with continental numpties)!
I'm one of the ones for repeat driving tests starting 2 years after the initial test (which first allows a full license) then repeated tests during all driving life including a separate eye and medical test which is NOT from your local GP!! as I know from family experience how these can be "awarded"!!!
Any road training which improves driving standards is to be greatly praised, especially regarding the extremely poor standard of roadcraft and vehicular skills which I see now every time I visit the UK (just comparing it with continental numpties)!
I'm one of the ones for repeat driving tests starting 2 years after the initial test (which first allows a full license) then repeated tests during all driving life including a separate eye and medical test which is NOT from your local GP!! as I know from family experience how these can be "awarded"!!!
JonRB said:
[I] know that my driving can always be improved but also realise that quick decision taking and quick action is more important than any rigid adherance to an outdated "rule book" written at the time when the red flag was mandatory
It depends on your driving style. Are you reactive or proactive? Do you find yourself in a sticky situation and get out of it with your "quick decision taking and quick action" or do you have heightened observation, situational awareness and risk analysis skills such that you immediately identify a potentially sticky situation developing and make sure you do not get into it?
For me the latter scenario is what marks out the advanced driver.
Point taken Jon, however I hope that I'm more the proactive than the reactive driver (must be doing something right as 3million kms without a self-caused bang in 20 years) However the quick decision and, in this case, reaction is needed when the unforseen does happen. And it does happen, no matter how good your proactive skills are, as you'll probably appreciate with your experience!
All it requires a TV documentary, pick 5 numpties off the streets each week, take them for a test drive, let them say what they think. Then assess them via the TV get the punters to vote (kerrching) then they take some tuition, then they do it again pointing out all the hazards they never noticed before. Bit of an eye opener for most people I assume.
Add in some real life tests/technical/anti bullsh*t stuff & you've got yourself a decent program.
By the way I've been asking the Beeb poeple aout doing this & nothing has happened - yet.
Add in some real life tests/technical/anti bullsh*t stuff & you've got yourself a decent program.
By the way I've been asking the Beeb poeple aout doing this & nothing has happened - yet.
cptsideways said:
All it requires a TV documentary, pick 5 numpties off the streets each week, take them for a test drive, let them say what they think. Then assess them via the TV get the punters to vote (kerrching) then they take some tuition, then they do it again pointing out all the hazards they never noticed before. Bit of an eye opener for most people I assume.
Add in some real life tests/technical/anti bullsh*t stuff & you've got yourself a decent program.
By the way I've been asking the Beeb poeple aout doing this & nothing has happened - yet.
[shouts]VERY GOOD IDEA!!!![/shouts]
JMGS4 said:Not disagreeing with you for one minute, John. I was trying to imply that both, rather that one or the other, was required.
Point taken Jon, however I hope that I'm more the proactive than the reactive driver (must be doing something right as 3million kms without a self-caused bang in 20 years) However the quick decision and, in this case, reaction is needed when the unforseen does happen. And it does happen, no matter how good your proactive skills are, as you'll probably appreciate with your experience!
As I think Don said earlier (possibly in another thread) knowledge without experience is dangerous, as is experience without knowledge. Both are requried. And in the same way an advanced driver should be skilled in both reactive and proactive driving. Reactive alone is not sufficient.
Also, I was talking more generally rather than directing my observation directly at you, despite the fact that I quoted your post.
>> Edited by JonRB on Thursday 8th September 10:11
I did consider an advanced driving course but then I heard, and I apologise if this is incorrect, that I would be taught things like not signalling if there's no other car around. Now I thought, just because you can't see another car doesn't mean there isn't one there, and this put me off taking the course completely.
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