Avoiding Downchanging and Braking. Why?
Discussion
In another thread some time ago Julian64 asked why avoid "engine braking". Turns out that "engine braking" is useful. But IAM/RoSPA/Roadcraft technique [i]does[/i] state to avoid changing down under braking.
Here is my explanation of why. More than happy to explore the subject if anyone has further questions.
[quote=Don]
[quote=Julian64]
And why rule out engine braking, when it confers an advantage that you cannot duplicate with the foot brake?
[/quote]
Proper use of engine braking is useful and a technique that is usually covered on IAM courses. People often confuse engine braking with "going down the box" under braking. On an IAM course Associates are taught to avoid "going down the box" NOT the use of engine braking - for example, selecting second prior to a steep downhill to use engine braking to prevent the car from speeding up...
"Going down the box" during deceleration has a number of disadvantages (IN A ROAD CAR WITH MANUAL TRANSMISSION)
a) You spend more time with the clutch depressed than actually in gear...coasting.. no engine braking during that!
b) You don't have both hands on the steering wheel at the very point when you are using up the grip of the tyres to brake and you may need to do something about it.
c) Unless you can heel'n'toe to match engine revs to road speed every time you engage the next lower gear and let the clutch up engine revs have to rise to meet road speed and the only thing smoothing this out is the clutch - which will wear away - and costs more to replace than brake pads.
d) When the engine revs are raised to match road speed via the clutch there is a "clutch braking" effect on the drive wheels. Under *extreme* conditions and espcially in RWD cars this can upset the brake balance of the car and induce a rear wheel skid - race driver's heel and toe to avoid this - the IAM method which seperates deceleration and gear change does the same - but doesn't require such fancy footwork...
That's the answer. Believe it or not.[/quote]
Here is my explanation of why. More than happy to explore the subject if anyone has further questions.
[quote=Don]
[quote=Julian64]
And why rule out engine braking, when it confers an advantage that you cannot duplicate with the foot brake?
[/quote]
Proper use of engine braking is useful and a technique that is usually covered on IAM courses. People often confuse engine braking with "going down the box" under braking. On an IAM course Associates are taught to avoid "going down the box" NOT the use of engine braking - for example, selecting second prior to a steep downhill to use engine braking to prevent the car from speeding up...
"Going down the box" during deceleration has a number of disadvantages (IN A ROAD CAR WITH MANUAL TRANSMISSION)
a) You spend more time with the clutch depressed than actually in gear...coasting.. no engine braking during that!
b) You don't have both hands on the steering wheel at the very point when you are using up the grip of the tyres to brake and you may need to do something about it.
c) Unless you can heel'n'toe to match engine revs to road speed every time you engage the next lower gear and let the clutch up engine revs have to rise to meet road speed and the only thing smoothing this out is the clutch - which will wear away - and costs more to replace than brake pads.
d) When the engine revs are raised to match road speed via the clutch there is a "clutch braking" effect on the drive wheels. Under *extreme* conditions and espcially in RWD cars this can upset the brake balance of the car and induce a rear wheel skid - race driver's heel and toe to avoid this - the IAM method which seperates deceleration and gear change does the same - but doesn't require such fancy footwork...
That's the answer. Believe it or not.[/quote]
You will always get some engine braking, no matter how low the revs are.
I tend to go through the 'box almost all the time naturally. I tried driving as others i have sat with do who don't go down through the 'box and I just felt so not in control. Even with low revs, you can definately feel a big difference with the braking compared to when you don't go down through the 'box.
Another advantage is you're always in the correct gear to accelerate if need be.
as for d) the chances of that happening are very slim during road use. The cars that have engine compressions likely to lock up the wheels will have LSD's anyway which rules out this happening altogether.
I can see why IAM teaches this method (i may soon be going on one of their courses) but I don't feel any other method is preffered, obviously I can be swayed
Can someone give the textbook instructions for IAM's method?
>> Edited by mindgam3 on Friday 2nd September 12:11
I tend to go through the 'box almost all the time naturally. I tried driving as others i have sat with do who don't go down through the 'box and I just felt so not in control. Even with low revs, you can definately feel a big difference with the braking compared to when you don't go down through the 'box.
Another advantage is you're always in the correct gear to accelerate if need be.
as for d) the chances of that happening are very slim during road use. The cars that have engine compressions likely to lock up the wheels will have LSD's anyway which rules out this happening altogether.
I can see why IAM teaches this method (i may soon be going on one of their courses) but I don't feel any other method is preffered, obviously I can be swayed
Can someone give the textbook instructions for IAM's method?
>> Edited by mindgam3 on Friday 2nd September 12:11
mindgam3 said:
Can someone give the textbook instructions for IAM's method?
Sure. The textbook you need is "Roadcraft". It will detail the "System Of Car Control"...worth a read.
Here's a summary of how the System is used to take a corner.
1) Observe hazard (corner) ahead. Plan how to deal with it. Plan on what gear will be appropriate (for your car, for that corner). Plan on where to brake (in a straight a line as possible). Plan where the subsequent gearchange will take place.
2) Observe all around. Is there anyone who could benefit from a signal of some sort? (Could be a junction, say). If so: make a signal.
3) Now adjust the speed of the car to be correct for the entry to the hazard (corner/junction/etc). Going on the brakes smoothly, braking hard, then coming off the brakes smoothly.
4) Off the brakes now. Dip the clutch and blip the accelerator to bring engine revs up to that dictated by the road speed and the gear you wish to select. Simultaeneously select the gear you require. Let the clutch up. If you got it right you will hear the engine revs blip and change but you WILL NOT FEEL THE GEAR CHANGE AS THE CLUTCH IS RELEASED. You can tell if you get it wrong as the car will either pull forward a bit (too much revs) or retard a bit (too few). In either case "tut tut" to oneself and promise to do it better next time!
5) Both hands now back on the wheel. Turn smoothly into the corner/junction/hazard. Steer through it. Because you are ALREADY in the right gear smoothly accelerate away from the hazard. Change up. Change up.
Benefits:
1) Keeps both hands on the wheel during braking - the time when you are using up grip and may need to deal with a slide.
2) Does not waste time with intermediate gears - and loss of drive during the changes. Avoids "coasting".
3) Ensures the correct gear for accelerating smartly away from the hazard - so many get this wrong! You can see 'em failing to get away from the junction frantically stomping in the accelerator as sod all happens because they bleedin' well insist on leaving the damn car in too high a gear. Planning to yse the right gear means BEING in the right gear which means a smart getaway!
4) Is kind to the clutch as road speed and engine revs are matched.
5) Does not destabilise car under hard braking.
As I said before race drivers achieve (5) with heel and toe. During "track" instruction I have been told to "block" downchange from 4th to 2nd too (for example) the only difference being an overlap between the downchange and the braking - but this means being able to brake and "blip" the throttle whilst the clutch is depressed at the same time. You use your right foot for both things - takes a bit of practice I can tell you! I can do it because I love all that racing technique business - but the System avoids the need for such fancy footwork and achieves the same thing.
Lots of road cars have pedal arrangements which utterly preclude heel and toe (My Porsche being an obvious exception) in which case the "System" is the best option anyway.
I understand why this is taught as it keeps the car in a stable position.
But as i said before, you are not going to be in the correct gear at all times during the braking. Say you're coming along a dual carriageway in 5th and want to change down to a 2nd gear roundabout, what happens if you want to accelerate when you're say doing 25 mph in 5th in you're braking process, how can you possibly accelerate? (using the average car). This is about as good as coasting but in this case, it is for a far greater length of time than you are changing between gears
Going down the box also gives you a greater amount of reassurance because as you are engine braking; to acheive the same amount of overall braking force as you would with not going down the box, you don't have to apply the pedal brake as hard. Therefore if you do need to brake any harder you have a lot more room for error as the brakes are not already near the end of their optimum performance. This may not apply so much in performance cars as the brakes are substantially better than your average punters car.
Surely to make the best of the IAM method you have to brake seriously harder than usual? and on Britains roads with Britains drivers, this surely isn't a wise move?
>> Edited by mindgam3 on Friday 2nd September 12:55
But as i said before, you are not going to be in the correct gear at all times during the braking. Say you're coming along a dual carriageway in 5th and want to change down to a 2nd gear roundabout, what happens if you want to accelerate when you're say doing 25 mph in 5th in you're braking process, how can you possibly accelerate? (using the average car). This is about as good as coasting but in this case, it is for a far greater length of time than you are changing between gears
Going down the box also gives you a greater amount of reassurance because as you are engine braking; to acheive the same amount of overall braking force as you would with not going down the box, you don't have to apply the pedal brake as hard. Therefore if you do need to brake any harder you have a lot more room for error as the brakes are not already near the end of their optimum performance. This may not apply so much in performance cars as the brakes are substantially better than your average punters car.
Surely to make the best of the IAM method you have to brake seriously harder than usual? and on Britains roads with Britains drivers, this surely isn't a wise move?
>> Edited by mindgam3 on Friday 2nd September 12:55
I always brake and change to the corner gear just before I turn in.
ABS and EBD prevent the need for two handed braking, and I don't brake *RIGHT* on the limit or use max force on the road anyway, so little chance of needing both arms strength while braking.
Then we have roundabouts, changing down as you approach means your in the right gear with power to go when you need to. I find it far easier to make progress choosing the right gear all the time.
I can't see any benefit not changing down when you feel it necessary.
If you thrashing it on the road, and getting the car out of shape as you can't match revs, or getting tramlining under hard braking and need two hands on the wheel, then imho, your driving too fast for your abilities, and need to slow down anyway.
In any decent driving car most of these problems are easy to drive around, ie, tramlining, jolty steering under braking, hard to blip the throttle while clutching in to match the revs of the lower gear etc.
I fully understand the motives and the ideas behind keeping the car stable and smooth weight transfers, but really only essential on track in a stiff setup foccused car do you need to worry too much about un-settling the car.
On the road I wouldn't even pretent to drive that quickly that it becomes a problem because that is probably too fast for the road.
Afterall, it's safety first, and there is little chance you can go that fast to need that car balance while still being able to safely stop within the road you can see and all that stuff.
Just my opinion anyway. I appreciate being smooth and all the driving lines and all that kinda best practice, but this is just elitist non sense for anything other than a GT3 RS or equivalent on the road.
And I'm quite sure that anyone driving that type of car hard on the road in the first place is driving correctly and with respect to engine braking torque locking up the rears and all that, much the same as a sharp lift in a low gear in a fwd while steering can get the back end right round.
Good driving practices, and overly anal driving practices. This one is anal in my opinion if it is used totally exclusively in all driving
Example:
Lets use a straight empty road, rural, cross roads at night, no traffic, lights are green, you approach in 6th. Lights go red 250 yards away. Do you approach in 6th and then wait till 100 yards, and brake, and just before you stop, depress the clutch?
What happens if the lights change to green when you are 50 yards away, your in 6th at maybe 20mph and need to change down to 2nd to make progress.
I would simply put my car in 4th with a small blip of the throttle, and let the engine brake me all the way to 100 yards, then the same again for 2nd, appreciating that I'll need only minimal brake usage to stop, but be in the right gear to go if they change!
Hrmmm
Dave
ABS and EBD prevent the need for two handed braking, and I don't brake *RIGHT* on the limit or use max force on the road anyway, so little chance of needing both arms strength while braking.
Then we have roundabouts, changing down as you approach means your in the right gear with power to go when you need to. I find it far easier to make progress choosing the right gear all the time.
I can't see any benefit not changing down when you feel it necessary.
If you thrashing it on the road, and getting the car out of shape as you can't match revs, or getting tramlining under hard braking and need two hands on the wheel, then imho, your driving too fast for your abilities, and need to slow down anyway.
In any decent driving car most of these problems are easy to drive around, ie, tramlining, jolty steering under braking, hard to blip the throttle while clutching in to match the revs of the lower gear etc.
I fully understand the motives and the ideas behind keeping the car stable and smooth weight transfers, but really only essential on track in a stiff setup foccused car do you need to worry too much about un-settling the car.
On the road I wouldn't even pretent to drive that quickly that it becomes a problem because that is probably too fast for the road.
Afterall, it's safety first, and there is little chance you can go that fast to need that car balance while still being able to safely stop within the road you can see and all that stuff.
Just my opinion anyway. I appreciate being smooth and all the driving lines and all that kinda best practice, but this is just elitist non sense for anything other than a GT3 RS or equivalent on the road.
And I'm quite sure that anyone driving that type of car hard on the road in the first place is driving correctly and with respect to engine braking torque locking up the rears and all that, much the same as a sharp lift in a low gear in a fwd while steering can get the back end right round.
Good driving practices, and overly anal driving practices. This one is anal in my opinion if it is used totally exclusively in all driving
Example:
Lets use a straight empty road, rural, cross roads at night, no traffic, lights are green, you approach in 6th. Lights go red 250 yards away. Do you approach in 6th and then wait till 100 yards, and brake, and just before you stop, depress the clutch?
What happens if the lights change to green when you are 50 yards away, your in 6th at maybe 20mph and need to change down to 2nd to make progress.
I would simply put my car in 4th with a small blip of the throttle, and let the engine brake me all the way to 100 yards, then the same again for 2nd, appreciating that I'll need only minimal brake usage to stop, but be in the right gear to go if they change!
Hrmmm
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Example:
Lets use a straight empty road, rural, cross roads at night, no traffic, lights are green, you approach in 6th. Lights go red 250 yards away. Do you approach in 6th and then wait till 100 yards, and brake, and just before you stop, depress the clutch?
What happens if the lights change to green when you are 50 yards away, your in 6th at maybe 20mph and need to change down to 2nd to make progress.
I would simply put my car in 4th with a small blip of the throttle, and let the engine brake me all the way to 100 yards, then the same again for 2nd, appreciating that I'll need only minimal brake usage to stop, but be in the right gear to go if they change!
Hrmmm
Dave
That is exactly the type of example I used when trying to convince my g/f of changing down through the gears when she was learning to pass the standard test and the instructor told her to pull up to the lights in 5th.
What if the lights change?
What if someone comes up behind too fast and you actually want to accelerate out of the way?
To me it also feel much more confortable and in control to have the enginein the correct torque band at the correct speed. Anything else feel WRONG.
Just my 2p's worth.
Cheers,
Steve
mindgam3 said:
But as i said before, you are not going to be in the correct gear at all times during the braking. Say you're coming along a dual carriageway in 5th and want to change down to a 2nd gear roundabout, what happens if you want to accelerate when you're say doing 25 mph in 5th in you're braking process, how can you possibly accelerate?
Why would you ever need to? If my plan says 5th to 2nd then I'll do that. The System dictates that if something changes during the execution of a driving plan you just go back the beginning and do the whole thing again. So, if something DID require me to take third, that's what I'd do - but I'd do it once I'd adjusted my speed to what was suitable for third gear.
This is something that comes with practice. Most people start the IAM with absolutely NO ability to work out what gear they need for any particular hazard. After a while they get good at deciding what gear will be necessary and seldom get it wrong. Once one is good at that then wasting time with unnecessary gear changes actually becomes something you actively don't want to do. In short - the System becomes natural. Actually more efficient than the alternative.
mindgam3 said:
Going down the box also gives you a greater amount of reassurance because as you are engine braking; to acheive the same amount of overall braking force as you would with not going down the box, you don't have to apply the pedal brake as hard.
Motor manufacturers go to a lot of bother to create braking systems with the perfect distribution of braking force to the front and back wheels. Sure - on racing systems this can be driver adjustable! Actually they mean "computer" adjustable, really...
So when you plant your foot on the brake the perfect distribution of braking force slows the car. Going down the box produces "clutch drag" braking which increases braking force on the drive wheels. On a RWD car this can seriously destabilise the perfect distribution...and cause spins in extreme circumstances.
There is little engine braking advantage over the simply using the braking system. Clutch drag braking can destabilise the vehicle. Given the benefit of one why bother with the downside of the other?
mindgam3 said:
Surely to make the best of the IAM method you have to brake seriously harder than usual? and on Britains roads with Britains drivers, this surely isn't a wise move?
Nope. I've never needed to brake much harder than usual. Engine braking simply doesn't contribute that much. What you do need to do is brake a little earlier than usual - to make time for the matched revs downshift after the braking is completed and before the hazard.
Sounds difficult and unweildy, I know. But trust me - its not once you've practiced it. A bit like playing the guitar. At first its all thumbs and after some practice you've got Eddie Van Halen.
The rigid principle of completely separating braking, gear changes and steering is one of the things that put me off RoSPA.
It just feels unnatural, and wrong. It may be great in terms of reducing driver workload, but there are times when braking and changing gear, or steering while braking or accelerating, are appropriate. To say rigidly 'though shalt not' is absurd.
I also didn't get the 'shuffle steer' thing. My approach is that you should drive in such a way that you can cope with reasonable forseeable events. If you might need to swerve suddenly, then you should hold the wheel in such a way that you can turn the wheel quickly in either direction - and shuffle steer lets you do this. But take the situation where you are accelerating a rwd car (gently) out of a corner in slippery conditions. In my car, I can predict that I am never ever going to need more lock (we are not home to Mr. Understeer) but I might very well need to apply lots of opposite lock in a hurry. In this situation, shuffle steering puts my hands in the 'wrong' position and I am better off crossing my arms to give me three quarters of a turn of instant correction.
I guess that my point is that the principles apply to everyone, but the driving style that is most appropriate for 90% of the population isn't necessarily appropriate for the other 10%.
It just feels unnatural, and wrong. It may be great in terms of reducing driver workload, but there are times when braking and changing gear, or steering while braking or accelerating, are appropriate. To say rigidly 'though shalt not' is absurd.
I also didn't get the 'shuffle steer' thing. My approach is that you should drive in such a way that you can cope with reasonable forseeable events. If you might need to swerve suddenly, then you should hold the wheel in such a way that you can turn the wheel quickly in either direction - and shuffle steer lets you do this. But take the situation where you are accelerating a rwd car (gently) out of a corner in slippery conditions. In my car, I can predict that I am never ever going to need more lock (we are not home to Mr. Understeer) but I might very well need to apply lots of opposite lock in a hurry. In this situation, shuffle steering puts my hands in the 'wrong' position and I am better off crossing my arms to give me three quarters of a turn of instant correction.
I guess that my point is that the principles apply to everyone, but the driving style that is most appropriate for 90% of the population isn't necessarily appropriate for the other 10%.
There are a host of sophisticated driving techniques that a tiny proportion of the driving population can make use of.
On here - we LOVE driving. Every aspect of it.
We love all that "what to do in RWD, rear engined car mid-corner" vs "what to do in a FWD, mid-engined car" vs vs vs.
I heel and toe for example - both on track and when I can use it to advantage whilst pressing on. My car is set up for it and I practice enough that I pretty much get it right most times.
I also consider that the truly "Advanced" driver should have a range of steering techniques at his disposal: Pull-push, Rotational, Fixed Position and so on.
The IAM concentrates on getting a core set of "Advanced" skills up to muster. Car control (whilst important) is also viewed as secondary to creating a thinking, observant driver. There are going to be techniques it does not cover. An excellent (in fact, a competition) driver, such as yourself, is going to have additional techniques at your disposal than someone who has passed the "basic" IAM Advanced Test.
I have undertaken loads of additional training in track and other driving techniques - some of which conflicts with Roadcraft - much of which does not.
The thing that IAM/RoSPA/Roadcraft does at its very best is develop a thinking road driver. Developing and enhancing anticipation and hazard identification and avoidance.
If, as an expert driver, you take away, at the end of the course, something of use - you've had your money's worth and can decide, from a firm standpoint of knowledge, what suits you and what doesn't - and build that which does into your driving style.
Many, many people who come on IAM/Rospa are not starting from your position though, Peter. Roadcraft is both an excellent way of managing the driving the process and also a thorough grounding in car control. Clearly it is quite possible to go well beyond what is covered in it in those terms.
Don't let the car control bits put you off. You'd have no trouble "doing them for the test" and ignoring what you really didn't find worked for you after. Get the other benefits.
On here - we LOVE driving. Every aspect of it.
We love all that "what to do in RWD, rear engined car mid-corner" vs "what to do in a FWD, mid-engined car" vs vs vs.
I heel and toe for example - both on track and when I can use it to advantage whilst pressing on. My car is set up for it and I practice enough that I pretty much get it right most times.
I also consider that the truly "Advanced" driver should have a range of steering techniques at his disposal: Pull-push, Rotational, Fixed Position and so on.
The IAM concentrates on getting a core set of "Advanced" skills up to muster. Car control (whilst important) is also viewed as secondary to creating a thinking, observant driver. There are going to be techniques it does not cover. An excellent (in fact, a competition) driver, such as yourself, is going to have additional techniques at your disposal than someone who has passed the "basic" IAM Advanced Test.
I have undertaken loads of additional training in track and other driving techniques - some of which conflicts with Roadcraft - much of which does not.
The thing that IAM/RoSPA/Roadcraft does at its very best is develop a thinking road driver. Developing and enhancing anticipation and hazard identification and avoidance.
If, as an expert driver, you take away, at the end of the course, something of use - you've had your money's worth and can decide, from a firm standpoint of knowledge, what suits you and what doesn't - and build that which does into your driving style.
Many, many people who come on IAM/Rospa are not starting from your position though, Peter. Roadcraft is both an excellent way of managing the driving the process and also a thorough grounding in car control. Clearly it is quite possible to go well beyond what is covered in it in those terms.
Don't let the car control bits put you off. You'd have no trouble "doing them for the test" and ignoring what you really didn't find worked for you after. Get the other benefits.
People forget that a tyre has a finite amount of grip. It uses that grip to help you to accelerate, to stop and to steer. And what holds those tyres down on the road to give them all that grip? Yes, weight! If you are braking, then the weight of the car is biased towards the front wheels so the rear wheels carry less weight, ergo less grip. Chuck in a gearchange (especially a cack-handed one) and you stand a good chance of breaking whatever grip they have.
And let's face it, drive about the country and you see people horsing into corners, brakes on and steering and changing gear all at the same time, and they get away with it, because ABS and EBD and TCS and god knows what other TLA helps them get away with it.
They get away with it 99 times out of 100 - or maybe 999 times out of 1,000... but that one time there's something different, a tiny bump, a patch of oil, a slightly deflated tyre, or even just going slightly faster, and all of a sudden they don't get away with it but end up stopping hard against random bits of what was previously innocently passing scenery.
And they don't know why. They say things like "it just went" or "suddenly I was sideways"...
And let's face it, drive about the country and you see people horsing into corners, brakes on and steering and changing gear all at the same time, and they get away with it, because ABS and EBD and TCS and god knows what other TLA helps them get away with it.
They get away with it 99 times out of 100 - or maybe 999 times out of 1,000... but that one time there's something different, a tiny bump, a patch of oil, a slightly deflated tyre, or even just going slightly faster, and all of a sudden they don't get away with it but end up stopping hard against random bits of what was previously innocently passing scenery.
And they don't know why. They say things like "it just went" or "suddenly I was sideways"...
Good points, and I certainly did (and still do) have a lot to learn about road craft. But I think it is fundamentally wrong to blindly prescribe a specific rigid driving technique, and I think it would also be wrong for me to say, in effect "I disagree with you, but I'll pretend to go along with you if it makes you happy". IMO that is a waste of both our time.
I remained unconvinced that the specific techniques being taught were better than the techniques I was using, I even had observers saying, in effect, "yes I agree your reasons for using that technique are valid, but it is not the way we teach so you must stop doing it". It seemed to me that the basic principles they were working from were sound but the car control techniques they derived from it were overly simplistic.
I remained unconvinced that the specific techniques being taught were better than the techniques I was using, I even had observers saying, in effect, "yes I agree your reasons for using that technique are valid, but it is not the way we teach so you must stop doing it". It seemed to me that the basic principles they were working from were sound but the car control techniques they derived from it were overly simplistic.
I once made the mistake of downshifting to 2nd to keep my turbo on boil while turning into the apex a bit too late and fast while still on the brakes.
I didn't have ABS or TC or EBD or ESP...
Wooo, 540 down the middle of the road. Had no chance to do anything, it just went and I jammed clutch and brake in and put my arms at my sides. Last thing I wanted was arms on/over wheel if I went off-road and the air-bag went off
Got more of a brain now, slow (ish) in, fast out. Can always lift-off a bit, add a bit more lock or correct while acclerating, but trying to get rid of energy in a short space of time to actually stay on the road is not a good place to be...
As per grip and weight, well it's best to not get to that stage that all your grip is on one pair of wheels, or one wheel for example.
As weight transfers we loose overall grip, we loose more than we gain is the best way to look at it. The lightly loaded tyres gain specific grip, but the loaded tyres loose specific grip per unit load.
Hammering any tyre to it's limit leaves NO room for error, which is why I never drive on my tyres limits on the road, as then I always have a safety margin for a little bit more lock, or a little bit more braking if I mis-judge (as we all can do).
It's interesting to read other people's methods. I've been shuffling my wheel on the way to work and find I am more accurate and alot quicker out of bends, but it's very hard work.
Oddly though, I feel less "ready" to make emergency adjustments as my arms are always in a state of movement feeding the wheel and re-orienting themseleves.
I prefer to just leave plenty in reserve in the direction that I feel to be most important. 10 to 2 on straighter roads, bends, 10 to 2 for the apex and on roundabouts etc, how I get there though is just how my arms happen to end up.
Shuffling may mean your arms are in the right place *if* you need to adjust quickly, but chances are I'd react slower with my steering in the event I had to adjust anyway, as I'm never in a state of equilibrium shuffling.
Hrmmmmm
Dave
I didn't have ABS or TC or EBD or ESP...
Wooo, 540 down the middle of the road. Had no chance to do anything, it just went and I jammed clutch and brake in and put my arms at my sides. Last thing I wanted was arms on/over wheel if I went off-road and the air-bag went off
Got more of a brain now, slow (ish) in, fast out. Can always lift-off a bit, add a bit more lock or correct while acclerating, but trying to get rid of energy in a short space of time to actually stay on the road is not a good place to be...
As per grip and weight, well it's best to not get to that stage that all your grip is on one pair of wheels, or one wheel for example.
As weight transfers we loose overall grip, we loose more than we gain is the best way to look at it. The lightly loaded tyres gain specific grip, but the loaded tyres loose specific grip per unit load.
Hammering any tyre to it's limit leaves NO room for error, which is why I never drive on my tyres limits on the road, as then I always have a safety margin for a little bit more lock, or a little bit more braking if I mis-judge (as we all can do).
It's interesting to read other people's methods. I've been shuffling my wheel on the way to work and find I am more accurate and alot quicker out of bends, but it's very hard work.
Oddly though, I feel less "ready" to make emergency adjustments as my arms are always in a state of movement feeding the wheel and re-orienting themseleves.
I prefer to just leave plenty in reserve in the direction that I feel to be most important. 10 to 2 on straighter roads, bends, 10 to 2 for the apex and on roundabouts etc, how I get there though is just how my arms happen to end up.
Shuffling may mean your arms are in the right place *if* you need to adjust quickly, but chances are I'd react slower with my steering in the event I had to adjust anyway, as I'm never in a state of equilibrium shuffling.
Hrmmmmm
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
I've been shuffling my wheel on the way to work and find I am more accurate and alot quicker out of bends, but it's very hard work.
Oddly though, I feel less "ready" to make emergency adjustments as my arms are always in a state of movement feeding the wheel and re-orienting themseleves.
It has been suggested elsewhere that one of the motives for encouraging shuffle steering is that this technique makes it difficult to steer quickly, which forces the driver to anticipate steering input and avoid abrupt steering corrections. I think there is an unspoken corollary that shuffle steering goes out the window when the unexpected happens.
One thing I found when I started competing was that it is difficult to make very large and quick steering corrections in the heat of the moment. It's not something you normally need to do, and it took me a while to develope the correct driving habits to achieve this. It's second nature these days to have a dose of opposite lock at the ready any time things get exciting, and as far as I'm concerned shuffle steering is only good for getting my arms in the right position to avoid running out of lock at the apex.
GreenV8S said:
As far as I'm concerned shuffle steering is only good for getting my arms in the right position to avoid running out of lock at the apex.
That is a useful on road benefit where corners can be tight: you never run out of the ability to add lock.
There is always the old "airbag" reason too - if one has one.
There again. I would never consider using push-pull on track or to control a slide...as you say. Generally when adding opposite lock I can keep at least one hand in a fixed position on the wheel - good for knowing where straight ahead is.
Personally I use push-pull whilst doing ordinary road driving. In manouvers I'm quite happy to use rotational steering to get plenty of lock on and off quickly (Roadcraft even talks about this...its wrong to think it doesn't!) - but I don't need it when travelling along. In a slide or on track I'd use as Fixed position steering. If I run out of opposite lock doing that I'd go to rotational but, Blimey!, I'd be in deep s**t by then!
tvrgit said:
People forget that a tyre has a finite amount of grip. It uses that grip to help you to accelerate, to stop and to steer. And what holds those tyres down on the road to give them all that grip? Yes, weight! If you are braking, then the weight of the car is biased towards the front wheels so the rear wheels carry less weight, ergo less grip. Chuck in a gearchange (especially a cack-handed one) and you stand a good chance of breaking whatever grip they have.
You want a greater load on the front wheels as they are what make you turn in. More load on the front wheels and the less likely you are to understeer. You are highly unlikely to lose the back end from turning in too quickly, if you do, you are going far to fast for the corner. The only thing that will break the rear ends grip is too much throttle, which is a completely seperate issue.
A car is much more stable in a corner if the front wheels have just been loaded from braking.
I've tried (and read) about it numerous times. Try going into a corner without loading the front tyres and then with and you (should) notice a considerable difference in the way the car corners.
By having the gearchange after your braking, the front tyres are not loaded and you are far more likely to understeer.
mindgam3 said:
You want a greater load on the front wheels as they are what make you turn in. More load on the front wheels and the less likely you are to understeer. You are highly unlikely to lose the back end from turning in too quickly, if you do, you are going far to fast for the corner. The only thing that will break the rear ends grip is too much throttle, which is a completely seperate issue.
A car is much more stable in a corner if the front wheels have just been loaded from braking.
I've tried (and read) about it numerous times. Try going into a corner without loading the front tyres and then with and you (should) notice a considerable difference in the way the car corners.
By having the gearchange after your braking, the front tyres are not loaded and you are far more likely to understeer.
I'm sorry but that's not correct, on so many levels.
How many times have you got away with that? 998? 999?
mindgam3 said:
People forget that a tyre has a finite amount of grip. It uses that grip to help you to accelerate, to stop and to steer. And what holds those tyres down on the road to give them all that grip? Yes, weight! If you are braking, then the weight of the car is biased towards the front wheels so the rear wheels carry less weight, ergo less grip. Chuck in a gearchange (especially a cack-handed one) and you stand a good chance of breaking whatever grip they have.
You want a greater load on the front wheels as they are what make you turn in. More load on the front wheels and the less likely you are to understeer. You are highly unlikely to lose the back end from turning in too quickly, if you do, you are going far to fast for the corner. The only thing that will break the rear ends grip is too much throttle, which is a completely seperate issue.
A car is much more stable in a corner if the front wheels have just been loaded from braking.
I've tried (and read) about it numerous times. Try going into a corner without loading the front tyres and then with and you (should) notice a considerable difference in the way the car corners.
By having the gearchange after your braking, the front tyres are not loaded and you are far more likely to understeer.
Ahhh yes. To "trailbrake" or not to "trailbrake". To actually keep the weight of the car forward onto the front wheels requires you to still be braking quite hard during turn-in. Feck this up and it will be rather nasty. I was experimenting with this at Brands last week and (the wise) clubsport said to me: "Trailbraking is your friend until it isn't and then it goes wrong very, very quickly."
On balance I wouldn't use it. Why? Well - you might get weight over the front of the car, but you lose it at the back. So the car turns-in...but now the back-end has to follow and it's "light". Sudden oversteer. In general understeer is a lot easier to cope with than oversteer...all though that can be a hoot in the right place and at the right time - NOT on the road!
Again: on track if you come off the brakes too sharply you get weight transfer to the back of the car. If you turn-in during this you will certainly get understeer. The answer is to come off 'em smoothly and then turn in.
How I've been taught to corner (on track) is to get smoothly off the brakes, get the car flat and then turn in using all the grip of the car for steering rather than for steering and braking at the same time. If it understeers you deal with that then. I've had this from some very fast guys and I believe them.
Now. Having said all this. If you are experiencing understeer during road driving you are trying waaaay too hard and it will all end in tears soon. The track is where to try edge of grip techniques.
Don said:
Ahhh yes. To "trailbrake" or not to "trailbrake". To actually keep the weight of the car forward onto the front wheels requires you to still be braking quite hard during turn-in. Feck this up and it will be rather nasty. I was experimenting with this at Brands last week and (the wise) clubsport said to me: "Trailbraking is your friend until it isn't and then it goes wrong very, very quickly."
On balance I wouldn't use it. Why? Well - you might get weight over the front of the car, but you lose it at the back. So the car turns-in...but now the back-end has to follow and it's "light". Sudden oversteer. In general understeer is a lot easier to cope with than oversteer...all though that can be a hoot in the right place and at the right time - NOT on the road!
Again: on track if you come off the brakes too sharply you get weight transfer to the back of the car. If you turn-in during this you will certainly get understeer. The answer is to come off 'em smoothly and then turn in.
How I've been taught to corner (on track) is to get smoothly off the brakes, get the car flat and then turn in using all the grip of the car for steering rather than for steering and braking at the same time. If it understeers you deal with that then. I've had this from some very fast guys and I believe them.
Now. Having said all this. If you are experiencing understeer during road driving you are trying waaaay too hard and it will all end in tears soon. The track is where to try edge of grip techniques.
I'm not saying brake whilst you are cornering, what I am saying is that by braking and then turning in, the car will be better loaded than if you brake, change gear, and then turn in
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