First driving incident, What would you have done?
Discussion
This has happend to me a few times,what would you do?.
You are going north up the M6 approaching Keele services in an artic with half a load so Keele brew is not going to slow you down. In front of you are a dozen trucks so you move out to the centre lane because some if not all the trucks will lose about 5 or 10 mph due to the gradient.
You have spotted a police car running at your speed a few hundred yards behind you so its all looking good in front and behind.
As you pass the in ramp of the sevices the road levels out and you wonder whether you will be able to get past the next truck.
Your cab is 15 foot behind his cab (does that make sense)as you approach the exit slip ramp of the services.
The trucks in the nearside lane are bunching because they can`t get out and a truck appears on the exit ramp doing about 45 mph indicating his intention to join the motorway.
This is were it get interesting,the truck coming on the motorway does`nt want to stop.
The truck in the slow lane can`t get out because i`m there,he can`t slow down because the guys behind are bunching and can`t see what going on up front.
I can`t boot it because of my speed restrictor and there is a truck quite close behind me.
Don`t forget the police car did`nt disappear into the services and so is still somewere behind me.
Name all the options open to me and then tell me what you would have done.
Do you mind if i tell you later what i did.
You are going north up the M6 approaching Keele services in an artic with half a load so Keele brew is not going to slow you down. In front of you are a dozen trucks so you move out to the centre lane because some if not all the trucks will lose about 5 or 10 mph due to the gradient.
You have spotted a police car running at your speed a few hundred yards behind you so its all looking good in front and behind.
As you pass the in ramp of the sevices the road levels out and you wonder whether you will be able to get past the next truck.
Your cab is 15 foot behind his cab (does that make sense)as you approach the exit slip ramp of the services.
The trucks in the nearside lane are bunching because they can`t get out and a truck appears on the exit ramp doing about 45 mph indicating his intention to join the motorway.
This is were it get interesting,the truck coming on the motorway does`nt want to stop.
The truck in the slow lane can`t get out because i`m there,he can`t slow down because the guys behind are bunching and can`t see what going on up front.
I can`t boot it because of my speed restrictor and there is a truck quite close behind me.
Don`t forget the police car did`nt disappear into the services and so is still somewere behind me.
Name all the options open to me and then tell me what you would have done.
Do you mind if i tell you later what i did.
Keep going, the chappie joining the motorway is obliged to give way.
Actually, what I'd rather you did is form a nice queue on lane 1 and not be so fussed about keeping your truck nailed to the limiter.
If the truck in lane 1 can't see what's ahead because he's too close to the truck in front then he should drop back. Just because he's in a truck doesn't mean he doesn't have a responsibility to drive safely at a safe distance.
Actually, what I'd rather you did is form a nice queue on lane 1 and not be so fussed about keeping your truck nailed to the limiter.
If the truck in lane 1 can't see what's ahead because he's too close to the truck in front then he should drop back. Just because he's in a truck doesn't mean he doesn't have a responsibility to drive safely at a safe distance.
Here's what I'd do:
Some while before the junction:
1) Where there is an off-ramp there will almost always be an on-ramp.
2) Observing motorway signs I'd have noted a "junction" coming up. You get at least a mile's warning - so plenty of time to decide to do things.
3) Given I know that a junction is coming and there is likely to be joining traffic I'd have selected a lane to be in (probably the nearside lane)...and gently adjusted my speed to build up a gap in front of me, and preferably behind me too. I'd almost certainly not be overtaking at this point.
4) Upon arriving at the junction I will have created as big a space as possible around me in front and behind. This eases things for joining traffic but more importantly gives ME room for manouvre.
That's just my take on it. It could happen that it doesn't pan out like that...but its how I'd try to go about it.
Of course: In my car and with a big speed and acceleration differential my strategy would likely be different. But in either case I would try and build a large space around me so that as traffic needs to merge from the left/right there is room to do it.
Just my 2p.
Some while before the junction:
1) Where there is an off-ramp there will almost always be an on-ramp.
2) Observing motorway signs I'd have noted a "junction" coming up. You get at least a mile's warning - so plenty of time to decide to do things.
3) Given I know that a junction is coming and there is likely to be joining traffic I'd have selected a lane to be in (probably the nearside lane)...and gently adjusted my speed to build up a gap in front of me, and preferably behind me too. I'd almost certainly not be overtaking at this point.
4) Upon arriving at the junction I will have created as big a space as possible around me in front and behind. This eases things for joining traffic but more importantly gives ME room for manouvre.
That's just my take on it. It could happen that it doesn't pan out like that...but its how I'd try to go about it.
Of course: In my car and with a big speed and acceleration differential my strategy would likely be different. But in either case I would try and build a large space around me so that as traffic needs to merge from the left/right there is room to do it.
Just my 2p.
The trouble with doing things by the book is that sometimes incidents can and do develope because of other peoples actions.
A friend or mine was killed when a car came out of knutsford services and caused a pile-up and then disappeared, and i promised my wife if that happened to me i would not, in all circumstances avoid hitting the vehicle that caused the danger.
Its very difficult to snake a big truck around a obstacle.
People that cause accidents but don`t get hit WILL drive off in my expierience.
Lets say for arguement sake you are towing a caravan.
If you were to go up the 3 mile climb on the M62 to junction 22 would you get in behind a line of trucks doing 30 mph so that you did not cause a problem at J22.
The trucks in lane 1 were doing 46mph and i was doing 56mph in lane 2, when we levelled out after the climb both lanes were doing 56 ish mph.
There is nothing wrong with how the incident has developed so far.
In the real world, the world and his wife would not get in behind the slowest vehicle because there might be something coming out of the services.
Vehicles do bunch especially in the rush hour.
Lets work on the assumption that the incidents has so far unfolded like i said.
I have not done anything wrong in law or according to the highway code.
I cannot control the gap behind me but i have a duty not to be careless in what i might do next.
AND THAT IS.....................
A friend or mine was killed when a car came out of knutsford services and caused a pile-up and then disappeared, and i promised my wife if that happened to me i would not, in all circumstances avoid hitting the vehicle that caused the danger.
Its very difficult to snake a big truck around a obstacle.
People that cause accidents but don`t get hit WILL drive off in my expierience.
Lets say for arguement sake you are towing a caravan.
If you were to go up the 3 mile climb on the M62 to junction 22 would you get in behind a line of trucks doing 30 mph so that you did not cause a problem at J22.
The trucks in lane 1 were doing 46mph and i was doing 56mph in lane 2, when we levelled out after the climb both lanes were doing 56 ish mph.
There is nothing wrong with how the incident has developed so far.
In the real world, the world and his wife would not get in behind the slowest vehicle because there might be something coming out of the services.
Vehicles do bunch especially in the rush hour.
Lets work on the assumption that the incidents has so far unfolded like i said.
I have not done anything wrong in law or according to the highway code.
I cannot control the gap behind me but i have a duty not to be careless in what i might do next.
AND THAT IS.....................
That's quite a question !
If I'm BMW114, then I have two choices;
1. Ease off to give the truck in lane 1 an escape route/ take myself away from the hazard. I can't believe that this would cause the truck behind to run into me, but we are dealing with truckers.
or,
2. If it starts to get messy, indicate right, and plunge into lane 3. Yes, I know, but better to explain your avoidance action to plod than to take part in a pile-up.
If I'm BMW114, then I have two choices;
1. Ease off to give the truck in lane 1 an escape route/ take myself away from the hazard. I can't believe that this would cause the truck behind to run into me, but we are dealing with truckers.
or,
2. If it starts to get messy, indicate right, and plunge into lane 3. Yes, I know, but better to explain your avoidance action to plod than to take part in a pile-up.
bor said:
That's quite a question !
If I'm BMW114, then I have two choices;
1. Ease off to give the truck in lane 1 an escape route/ take myself away from the hazard. I can't believe that this would cause the truck behind to run into me, but we are dealing with truckers.
or,
2. If it starts to get messy, indicate right, and plunge into lane 3. Yes, I know, but better to explain your avoidance action to plod than to take part in a pile-up.
I suspect it was (2) - and I can see how its better to go into lane 3 than it is to be part of a crash. BUT you've got to weigh against that the strong possibility that there is something tanking up lane 3 at speed. And we know that in many cases they won't have seen the cop car...
Like I say - I'd have preferred not to get into the situation in the first place. But, real world, it could happen. Once it has I reckon lifting off as gently as possible and giving the guy to the left an escape route could be the best option...but also observing lane 3 as an escape lane if it all really did go horribly wrong...
The easy answer from an 'advanced driving' point of view is not to get into the situation in the first pace, but frankly given the situation described that's more than a little bit trite. I work to the mantra that I am not going to entrust my safety to any other road user either doing something or not doing something. That said, we all make mistakes from time to time in our thinking and planning and if I'd had the same sequence happening then lane 3 and claim force majeureif the BiB had stopped for a chat.
There's always the maxim 'better to be judged by twelve than carried by six' and I've dealt with enough LGV accidents over the eyars to knwo just how poor their crash safety is.
There's always the maxim 'better to be judged by twelve than carried by six' and I've dealt with enough LGV accidents over the eyars to knwo just how poor their crash safety is.
I would have made space for the truck in lane 1 to move over. Depending on the road conditions, that might have included lane 3. With BiB behind me I'd rule out that option.
I would say responsibility lay (in order)
1. Trucker joining should merge, but ultimately give way
2. Decency and safety should dictate that the trucks in lane 1 accommodate the joining vehicles.
3. (And to a much lower degree) You should accommodate the trucks in lane 1.
I would say 1. is legal, the rest is just good driving.
I would say responsibility lay (in order)
1. Trucker joining should merge, but ultimately give way
2. Decency and safety should dictate that the trucks in lane 1 accommodate the joining vehicles.
3. (And to a much lower degree) You should accommodate the trucks in lane 1.
I would say 1. is legal, the rest is just good driving.
As people have already pointed out, it was a mistake to start the overtaking manoever on the approach to an on ramp.
Given that you have got yourself in that situation, one of the three trucks has to slow down (you, the truck have have boxed into lane 1, or the truck trying to join). For the joining truck to slow down will make life very difficult for him as it increases the differential speed against lane 1 traffic and he has a finite length of slip road to merge from. Either of the other two trucks have the option of slowing down to create a gap. Given that you apparently had more space around you it makes sense for you to make the first move and drop back to allow the truck from lane 1 to pull in front of you.
I would regard this as undoing your mistake in putting yourself in that position in the first place, you should have stopped your approach as soon as it became clear that you were in danger of boxing in somebody who was likely to need to change lanes.
>> Edited by GreenV8S on Wednesday 7th September 11:37
Given that you have got yourself in that situation, one of the three trucks has to slow down (you, the truck have have boxed into lane 1, or the truck trying to join). For the joining truck to slow down will make life very difficult for him as it increases the differential speed against lane 1 traffic and he has a finite length of slip road to merge from. Either of the other two trucks have the option of slowing down to create a gap. Given that you apparently had more space around you it makes sense for you to make the first move and drop back to allow the truck from lane 1 to pull in front of you.
I would regard this as undoing your mistake in putting yourself in that position in the first place, you should have stopped your approach as soon as it became clear that you were in danger of boxing in somebody who was likely to need to change lanes.
>> Edited by GreenV8S on Wednesday 7th September 11:37
The incident that i discribed to you happens all the time and i have at different times found myself in each of the various positions and so from sometimes getting it a little bit wrong to almost spot on this is what i have done in the past.
If i am the truck joining the motorway from a short slip road i study my mirror to view all three lanes to see if some kind trucker can safely move out if needs be to allow me to merge, if he can`t i will ease off and indicate left to let him know i won`t be forcing my way on.
If you don`t indicate left some inexperienced drivers panic and think you will join come what may and so force there way over which can cause other problems in lines 2 and 3.
If the hard shoulder is clear i would if i had to keep moving up the shoulder still indicating left untill i could slot in, the logic being it is better than stopping and then trying to join from zero mph.
Joe public does not expect to swing onto a short slip road and find a stationary vehicle waiting to join.
If i am the truck in lane 1 then i realise that i am slowly getting myself boxed in so i will try to look through the services to see if something is ready to hit the road.
With maybe 500 yards to go if the truck in lane 2 has`nt reach my back doors and its safe to do so i will move out into lane 2 just in case something appears on the slip road.
This is safer for me, safer for the guy behind me in lane 1(he can see the slip road now)and safer for the joining truck.
If i can`t get out i just have to hope the truck joining is being driven by someone that thinks like me.(back off a little indicate left be prepared to go up the shoulder).
Easing off the gas or worse still slowing down on the brakes is a bad thing to do, in the real world people do travel to close and i always need to know what is right behind me.
Slowing down just closes the gaps and when you get hit up the arse by another truck he becomes trapped in his cab if hes lucky and you go down or up the embankment.
The joining truck does`nt actually join and so you take the blame.
Now we get to part were the story started. What did you do Dave?.
As I got my nose in front of truck 2 in lane 1 I would expect the lead truck to think about pulling out in front of me so i would look at him in his door mirror,if hes not looking at me then he feels ok about the situation so i proceed forward.
Now it happens, a fast truck appears on the slip road, "Oh christ its left hand drive", as i said before i know whats happenning Behind me and my escape route to avoid mayhem is the lesser of two evils Because the police car is behind me nobody is speeding and there is no one at the side of me in lane 3. I indicate and pull out into lane three, I toot my horn because the truck in lane 1 is watching the Polish trucker on the slip road,He hears me sees what i`m doing, indicates, pulls out into lane 2, backs off slightly so that i`m not hanging out there in lane 3 too long,flashes his lights to let me know i`ve cleared him, the truck on the slip road flashes and everybody is back in the slow lane except the truck that was behind me originally.
It all works like a well oiled machine except that i`ve broken rule Bla Bla of the highway code.
Now lets be serious the cops are not going to pull me over for doing what i did if it prvented a pile up, I would most certainly plead not guilty to it, would`nt you?.
Just to keep sweet with the BIB i watch for them approaching me and give them the thumbs up as they pass me(letting them know i knew they were there).
The one in the passenger seat gives me a royal wave and every body goes home in one piece that day
>> Edited by bmw114 on Wednesday 7th September 15:13
If i am the truck joining the motorway from a short slip road i study my mirror to view all three lanes to see if some kind trucker can safely move out if needs be to allow me to merge, if he can`t i will ease off and indicate left to let him know i won`t be forcing my way on.
If you don`t indicate left some inexperienced drivers panic and think you will join come what may and so force there way over which can cause other problems in lines 2 and 3.
If the hard shoulder is clear i would if i had to keep moving up the shoulder still indicating left untill i could slot in, the logic being it is better than stopping and then trying to join from zero mph.
Joe public does not expect to swing onto a short slip road and find a stationary vehicle waiting to join.
If i am the truck in lane 1 then i realise that i am slowly getting myself boxed in so i will try to look through the services to see if something is ready to hit the road.
With maybe 500 yards to go if the truck in lane 2 has`nt reach my back doors and its safe to do so i will move out into lane 2 just in case something appears on the slip road.
This is safer for me, safer for the guy behind me in lane 1(he can see the slip road now)and safer for the joining truck.
If i can`t get out i just have to hope the truck joining is being driven by someone that thinks like me.(back off a little indicate left be prepared to go up the shoulder).
Easing off the gas or worse still slowing down on the brakes is a bad thing to do, in the real world people do travel to close and i always need to know what is right behind me.
Slowing down just closes the gaps and when you get hit up the arse by another truck he becomes trapped in his cab if hes lucky and you go down or up the embankment.
The joining truck does`nt actually join and so you take the blame.
Now we get to part were the story started. What did you do Dave?.
As I got my nose in front of truck 2 in lane 1 I would expect the lead truck to think about pulling out in front of me so i would look at him in his door mirror,if hes not looking at me then he feels ok about the situation so i proceed forward.
Now it happens, a fast truck appears on the slip road, "Oh christ its left hand drive", as i said before i know whats happenning Behind me and my escape route to avoid mayhem is the lesser of two evils Because the police car is behind me nobody is speeding and there is no one at the side of me in lane 3. I indicate and pull out into lane three, I toot my horn because the truck in lane 1 is watching the Polish trucker on the slip road,He hears me sees what i`m doing, indicates, pulls out into lane 2, backs off slightly so that i`m not hanging out there in lane 3 too long,flashes his lights to let me know i`ve cleared him, the truck on the slip road flashes and everybody is back in the slow lane except the truck that was behind me originally.
It all works like a well oiled machine except that i`ve broken rule Bla Bla of the highway code.
Now lets be serious the cops are not going to pull me over for doing what i did if it prvented a pile up, I would most certainly plead not guilty to it, would`nt you?.
Just to keep sweet with the BIB i watch for them approaching me and give them the thumbs up as they pass me(letting them know i knew they were there).
The one in the passenger seat gives me a royal wave and every body goes home in one piece that day
>> Edited by bmw114 on Wednesday 7th September 15:13
iaint said:
Keep going, the chappie joining the motorway is obliged to give way.
Actually, what I'd rather you did is form a nice queue on lane 1 and not be so fussed about keeping your truck nailed to the limiter.
If the truck in lane 1 can't see what's ahead because he's too close to the truck in front then he should drop back. Just because he's in a truck doesn't mean he doesn't have a responsibility to drive safely at a safe distance.
This response is absolute bollox. Unless its a wind-up.
Firstly, it doesn't matter how far you drop behind the truck in front, you can't see in front of it. I don't really know what the safe distance in front of an HGV at 56 mph is, but both you and I know that you personally don't allow say a quarter mile before pulling back in front of a truck. You'll pull in at @ 200 yards like everyone else. i hope you don't then slow down like so many do.
Of course I'm going to keep the truck nailed to the speed limiter. Apart from its what I'm paid to do, its also an effective cruise ontrol. Would you have me go to the trouble of slowing down slightly and operate the throttle manually, just for you and other complete strangers? Furthermore, as a self-employed I'm paid only on what work I do, and it pays my mortgage etc. Would you have me put your mortgage before mine? Would you expect me to put your families income before mine? Do you suffer from any other fantasies? Actually, I shouldn't come hard on you, I'm sure you're no different from any other car driver on the m'way. (You know, the 10 mill cars carrying 1 person and fresh air, getting in the way of the commerce that keeps the country afloat moan moan mumble mumble).
In answer to the original question: The truck joining is a good 10mph slower than the bunch of trucks, so he needs to judge his speed to slot in behind the trucks in lane 1. You're lighter than the other trucks, you've got the run up the hill and following level, keep it going, brother.
I think I'd have got on my horn and hopefully attracted the attention of said joining truck (he wouldnt know which of your was hooting). At the same time checking lane 3 for an 'out' in case I had to use it. Too much hassle explaining yourself to the coppers most of the time, unless they can very clearly see the joining vehicle about to cause a pile up.
Moving (illegally) into lane three surely would be a last resort if it was the only way to avoid a collision, bearing in mind that the option wouldn't necessarily be open to you depending what traffic there was in lane three. In fact, forcing the other truck onto the hard shoulder would probably be safer than pulling out into traffic in lane three. It seems to me this situation is unlikely to occur unless you have ignored the situation that was developing, there would normally be plenty of other opportunities to defuse the situation before it came to this point.
This very like the situation I posted in the trucks thread in SP&L, except it was me (in a car) joining from the sliproad.
The root cause of the danger is not the change in gradients or the speed limiters (these just make it harder to sort out after the event). It is the fact that the trucks in lane 1 bunched together in the first place. They all had to adjust their speed to the truck in front anyway - why not leave a safe gap when they do so? Then the truck on the sliproad would have had a safe space to merge into.
The root cause of the danger is not the change in gradients or the speed limiters (these just make it harder to sort out after the event). It is the fact that the trucks in lane 1 bunched together in the first place. They all had to adjust their speed to the truck in front anyway - why not leave a safe gap when they do so? Then the truck on the sliproad would have had a safe space to merge into.
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