Heel and Toe Question
Discussion
What is the advantage of;
brake >-- apply the clutch >-- move gearlever into neutral >-- lift clutch >-- blip throttle >-- reapply the clutch >-- select lower gear >-- lift clutch
I seem to be able to get a seemless downchange simply by;
brake >-- apply clutch >-- >move gearlever into neutral >-- blip throttle >-- select lower gear >-- lift clutch
Basically I don't pull the clutch pedal up and reapply before selecting the lower gear. Am I being less sensitive to the car in some way?
brake >-- apply the clutch >-- move gearlever into neutral >-- lift clutch >-- blip throttle >-- reapply the clutch >-- select lower gear >-- lift clutch
I seem to be able to get a seemless downchange simply by;
brake >-- apply clutch >-- >move gearlever into neutral >-- blip throttle >-- select lower gear >-- lift clutch
Basically I don't pull the clutch pedal up and reapply before selecting the lower gear. Am I being less sensitive to the car in some way?
the process you've described, Steve, is double-de-clutching, which was required when gearboxes didn't have synchros.
HOWEVER...I do recall seeing bits and bobs about (advanced) current drivers double de-clutching in modern cars; and so, to alude to the original post; what's the advantage?
HOWEVER...I do recall seeing bits and bobs about (advanced) current drivers double de-clutching in modern cars; and so, to alude to the original post; what's the advantage?
It is double de-clutching but in an article by John Barker that I have is basically the example used by him as the correct "heel and toe" technique. The article is titled "How to Heel and Toe".
It recommends double de-clutching even with a synchro gearbox as it "smooths out things even more".
It recommends double de-clutching even with a synchro gearbox as it "smooths out things even more".
I don't bother to include a double declutch in my heel and toe downchanges. Car doesn't seem to mind. The only barrier to smoothness is getting the revs right.
Easy peasy from 4th to 3rd. Doing it when you need to get from 4th to 2nd requires a bit more practice! (I NEVER bother with an intermediate gear - the old IAM thing kicking in.)
Easy peasy from 4th to 3rd. Doing it when you need to get from 4th to 2nd requires a bit more practice! (I NEVER bother with an intermediate gear - the old IAM thing kicking in.)
With modern gearboxes you don't need to double-declutch unless the synchros have given up. Double-declutching when you don't need to is a bad idea, it keeps your hands and feet busy and extends the gear change at a time when you should be concentrating on steering and braking and keeping both hands on the wheel.
Right, I am fed up of the confusion over the different methods of gear shifting. Heed these words...
Double de-clutching= depress clutch, select neutral, raise clutch, depress clutch, blip throttle, select lower gear.
This technique was used on cars and trucks without synchromesh boxes. In a non-synchromesh box the cogs are turning at different speeds, this prevents them from smoothly integrating and they will "crunch".
As the name suggests the synchromesh gear "synchronises" the speed of the cogs meaning that going through neutral is no longer necessary.
The effect of the synchromesh gear can be seen by raising the clutch in a modern car before the gear is fully engaged. This results in a "crunch" as the cogs clash at different speeds.
Because modern cars have synchromesh boxes it is not necessary to depress the clutch twice. Therefore the modern version of double de-clutching is depress clutch, select gear, blip throttle, raise clutch.
Double de-clutching results in a smoother change, allows the driver to keep the revs up and finally it sounds cool.
Heel and toe is the method of double de-clutching whilst braking. The method is exactly the same with the difference that the driver uses the ball of the right foot to operate the brake and the toes to blip the throttle. The main danger here is that most road cars are not set up for heel and toe shifts.
Sacrificing a good brake through poor footwork could possibly put the vehicle in danger. Also the technique takes a lot of practice before it can be safely used on public roads.
Double de-clutching= depress clutch, select neutral, raise clutch, depress clutch, blip throttle, select lower gear.
This technique was used on cars and trucks without synchromesh boxes. In a non-synchromesh box the cogs are turning at different speeds, this prevents them from smoothly integrating and they will "crunch".
As the name suggests the synchromesh gear "synchronises" the speed of the cogs meaning that going through neutral is no longer necessary.
The effect of the synchromesh gear can be seen by raising the clutch in a modern car before the gear is fully engaged. This results in a "crunch" as the cogs clash at different speeds.
Because modern cars have synchromesh boxes it is not necessary to depress the clutch twice. Therefore the modern version of double de-clutching is depress clutch, select gear, blip throttle, raise clutch.
Double de-clutching results in a smoother change, allows the driver to keep the revs up and finally it sounds cool.
Heel and toe is the method of double de-clutching whilst braking. The method is exactly the same with the difference that the driver uses the ball of the right foot to operate the brake and the toes to blip the throttle. The main danger here is that most road cars are not set up for heel and toe shifts.
Sacrificing a good brake through poor footwork could possibly put the vehicle in danger. Also the technique takes a lot of practice before it can be safely used on public roads.
anniesdad said:
all this extra foot and hand work involved would be in fact a disadvantage, when the ultimate aim is "quick and smooth" driving
I see what you're saying, but it isn't that difficult to do smoothly.
Though double declutching is largely redundant with a synchro gearbox it can still be a useful skill, particularly on a gearbox which has worn synchros or when the gearbox oil is cold.
And anyway, I have a non-synchro first gear...
gwyn said:
Right, I am fed up of the confusion over the different methods of gear shifting. Heed these words...
Double de-clutching= depress clutch, select neutral, raise clutch, depress clutch, blip throttle, select lower gear...
LMAO, you've just added to the confusion.
It's Depress clutch, select neutral, raise clutch, blip throttle, depress clutch, select lower gear.
Heel and Toe, with a double de-clutch is the same thing only you brake with your toes and do the throttle blip with your Heel - well the side of your foot usually.
>> Edited by woodytvr on Monday 26th September 17:20
Unless you have a gross excess of driving skill for the circumstances, or some particular reason not to use the synchros, double-declutching makes no sense.
If you're pootling along and have nothing better to do then you might well decide to double-declutch, there's no reason why you shouldn't if you want. However, there's no particular benefit other than giving you something to keep yourself amused. I consider that a perfectly valid excuse, by the way.
If you're pressing on, the last thing you should be doing is spending longer than necessary doing complicated things with your hands and feet, especially during downshifts on the approach to a corner where you should be concentrating on steering and braking. Heel-and-toe plus double-declutch just compounds the problem, yes it's possible but rarely sensible.
If you have a car without working synchros then maybe you are left with no option but to double declutch, but I think these circumstances are likely to be very rare on a modern road car.
If you're pootling along and have nothing better to do then you might well decide to double-declutch, there's no reason why you shouldn't if you want. However, there's no particular benefit other than giving you something to keep yourself amused. I consider that a perfectly valid excuse, by the way.
If you're pressing on, the last thing you should be doing is spending longer than necessary doing complicated things with your hands and feet, especially during downshifts on the approach to a corner where you should be concentrating on steering and braking. Heel-and-toe plus double-declutch just compounds the problem, yes it's possible but rarely sensible.
If you have a car without working synchros then maybe you are left with no option but to double declutch, but I think these circumstances are likely to be very rare on a modern road car.
I feel that double de-clutching can be used in all driving situations, with practice it does not distract the driver from the road. The major benefit is being able to shift down a gear without the engine braking effect jerking the car and dropping the revs. This allows us to keep the engine in its power band maximising performance.
For example, imagine you are travelling along a flat road. Ahead, the road steepens and enters a right hand bend.
You are travelling at 40mph in fourth gear. The speed is correct for the bend but in fourth gear your vehicle will be unable to pull up the hill without losing speed.
If you engage third normally the engine braking effect will jerk the car and slow you down. However, using double de-clutching you shift to third, keeping the revs up and pull up the hill smoothly.
Basically I feel that techniques such as double de-clutching encourage the driver to think ahead and assess the road.
For example, imagine you are travelling along a flat road. Ahead, the road steepens and enters a right hand bend.
You are travelling at 40mph in fourth gear. The speed is correct for the bend but in fourth gear your vehicle will be unable to pull up the hill without losing speed.
If you engage third normally the engine braking effect will jerk the car and slow you down. However, using double de-clutching you shift to third, keeping the revs up and pull up the hill smoothly.
Basically I feel that techniques such as double de-clutching encourage the driver to think ahead and assess the road.
gwyn said:
If you engage third normally the engine braking effect will jerk the car and slow you down. However, using double de-clutching you shift to third, keeping the revs up and pull up the hill smoothly.
You're talking about matching engine speed when changing down, which is certainly desirable. But double-declutching is not necessary to achieve that.
I tend to be nice to my halfshafts and not try that hard in first gear. But even going slowly, it is difficult to select first gear on the move without a crunch, unless you double declutch.
Actually, it's difficult even then. For me, anyway
In manual gearbox cars I heel and toe all the time if the pedal layout allows - not just when 'making progress'.
Actually, it's difficult even then. For me, anyway
anniesdad said:
when pressing on, hence the need to heel and toe/double de-clutch
In manual gearbox cars I heel and toe all the time if the pedal layout allows - not just when 'making progress'.
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