Snow - what is the problem??
Discussion
Looking at the news today, stories of loads of cars stranded on Bodmin due to a light dusting. Reminds of me of any time in Britain when it snows everyone just grinds to a halt.
WTF is going on though? Providing there is not so much snow that I can't see out of the windscreen I've never had a problem driving in the white stuff.
Anyone shed any light on this?
WTF is going on though? Providing there is not so much snow that I can't see out of the windscreen I've never had a problem driving in the white stuff.
Anyone shed any light on this?
*shrugs* So long as you take enough safety precautions, I can't see what the problem driving on a motorway is. Obviously, tricky A- and B-roads are different, but for the most part, it should be doable.
Any more of this weather and there could some demand for winter tyres, which would help the situation.
Any more of this weather and there could some demand for winter tyres, which would help the situation.
I reckon it comes down to three things:
- drivers who have never had any instruction or experience on how to drive on snow and just panic as soon as they lose grip
- wider,low profile tyres with higher speed ratings that have zero traction in the cold
- traffic density such that, however capable you and your car are, once the bloke at the front of the queue gets stuck, everyone is stuck.
A few years ago I spent a surreal night in the car near Huddersfield for precisely that last reason. I wasn't stuck but the bus up ahead was (it had broken a half shaft trying to extricate itself) and the artic behind was, leaving no way out for me.
Having grown up in North Yorkshire, this time of year the shovel goes in the boot, together with warm clothes etc. My Impreza stands a beeter chance than most with its 4 wheel drive (although my wife's Discovery on its all terrain tyres is the best solution!) but I recognise that these days, if the traffic grinds to a halt, I'm stuck along with everyone else!
- drivers who have never had any instruction or experience on how to drive on snow and just panic as soon as they lose grip
- wider,low profile tyres with higher speed ratings that have zero traction in the cold
- traffic density such that, however capable you and your car are, once the bloke at the front of the queue gets stuck, everyone is stuck.
A few years ago I spent a surreal night in the car near Huddersfield for precisely that last reason. I wasn't stuck but the bus up ahead was (it had broken a half shaft trying to extricate itself) and the artic behind was, leaving no way out for me.
Having grown up in North Yorkshire, this time of year the shovel goes in the boot, together with warm clothes etc. My Impreza stands a beeter chance than most with its 4 wheel drive (although my wife's Discovery on its all terrain tyres is the best solution!) but I recognise that these days, if the traffic grinds to a halt, I'm stuck along with everyone else!
Another problem is thick drivers who crash and then shut the roads.
Yesterday, I was on a dual carriageway in the outer lane, which I realised was getting a bit slippy and the inside lane was clearer. I eased off to fit into a gap without causing anybody else to brake, the Mits Evo up my rear seemed to think he was immortal. I think he was flashing his lights but couldn't see because he was so close. After I pulled in he passed, heand his passenger looked like a couple of shaved monkeys, shaking their fists etc and then stormed up the road a bit to hassle the next driver...
4wd or not, you can't stop any sooner if it's slippery pal...
That was only one - there were several tailgaters etc on the way home, when the motorway was hard-packed rippled ice.
It's not how careful you are - it's the next lunatic you meet...
Yesterday, I was on a dual carriageway in the outer lane, which I realised was getting a bit slippy and the inside lane was clearer. I eased off to fit into a gap without causing anybody else to brake, the Mits Evo up my rear seemed to think he was immortal. I think he was flashing his lights but couldn't see because he was so close. After I pulled in he passed, heand his passenger looked like a couple of shaved monkeys, shaking their fists etc and then stormed up the road a bit to hassle the next driver...
4wd or not, you can't stop any sooner if it's slippery pal...
That was only one - there were several tailgaters etc on the way home, when the motorway was hard-packed rippled ice.
It's not how careful you are - it's the next lunatic you meet...
"Its okay I've got ABS" is the usual quote.
Yes, but if your tyres have no grip you still won't stop.
I find there is a fine line between driving too slow and driving too fast in the snow. The conditions are usually such that the traction levels can change every few hundred yards, and much some of my friends annoyance when they have travelled with me in the snow, I tend to (subject to no one close behind me) dab the brakes quite hard every now and then to test the level of grip available. This makes me much more confident about judging the correct speed for the conditions.
Does anyone else to this?
Going back to the original point, yes it is usually a few vehicles that block the road for everyone else. Either by crashing
or getting stuck on a hill....
Cheers,
Steve
Yes, but if your tyres have no grip you still won't stop.
I find there is a fine line between driving too slow and driving too fast in the snow. The conditions are usually such that the traction levels can change every few hundred yards, and much some of my friends annoyance when they have travelled with me in the snow, I tend to (subject to no one close behind me) dab the brakes quite hard every now and then to test the level of grip available. This makes me much more confident about judging the correct speed for the conditions.
Does anyone else to this?
Going back to the original point, yes it is usually a few vehicles that block the road for everyone else. Either by crashing
or getting stuck on a hill.... Cheers,
Steve
Fat Audi 80 said:
Does anyone else to this?
Hell yes. In very slippery conditions I continually provoke very small slides to gauge the amount of grip. The faster I go the more frequent these become, and when I'm right on the ragged edge in very slippery conditions they sort of join up into one continuous not-quite-slide. Being anywhere near the limit of grip without knowing how much grip you have in reserve is a recipe for disaster.
I guess that heavy vehicles and buses are going to have more of a problem with this, and they've got the capability to block the road pretty much completely.
I spent some time living in Sheffield, and most of the bus drivers knew from experience when it was best to just leave the bus in the bus stop rather than attempt the big hills.
I quite like the small slide or test braking techniques, given circumstances (being tail gated, etc). If we got more snow than we do, I reckon it could be a good idea for people to have a "snow license". If a person can't be bothered to train and think about the snow technique, it's not fair for them to be out blocking the roads for the rest of us
I spent some time living in Sheffield, and most of the bus drivers knew from experience when it was best to just leave the bus in the bus stop rather than attempt the big hills.
I quite like the small slide or test braking techniques, given circumstances (being tail gated, etc). If we got more snow than we do, I reckon it could be a good idea for people to have a "snow license". If a person can't be bothered to train and think about the snow technique, it's not fair for them to be out blocking the roads for the rest of us
711 said:
I guess that heavy vehicles and buses are going to have more of a problem with this, and they've got the capability to block the road pretty much completely.
I think they are going to have less trouble than little light things. The 7 loses grip like nobody's business on snow. Buses tend to have much of their available grip still available to them.
7db said:
I guess that heavy vehicles and buses are going to have more of a problem with this, and they've got the capability to block the road pretty much completely.
I think they are going to have less trouble than little light things. The 7 loses grip like nobody's business on snow. Buses tend to have much of their available grip still available to them.
I drove my 7 in the snow, and it was a bit hairy I agree. The trouble with the 7 is that the heaviest thing over the back wheels is the driver's ass.
Perhaps it depends on how the load is distributed in a commercial vehicle, and which axels are driven. Also, there's a fair bit of momentum in a bus or lorry if it starts going the wrong way...
I'm not having a pop at drivers of large vehicles BTW. I'm sure that the majority apply much experience and care when faced with tough conditions. To be honest, most of the people I've seen struggling in snow have been operators of front wheel drive cars, which should really be having the easiest time of it.
This is my first year of 911 (930) turbo ownerhip as well, so I hope I have not spoken too soon
>> Edited by 711 on Sunday 27th November 17:38
711 said:
I drove my 7 in the snow, and it was a bit hairy I agree. The trouble with the 7 is that the heaviest thing over the back wheels is the driver's ass.
I can assure you as an SV driver that there's plenty of ballast in that department, but I still felt it going sideways this weekend on ice/mud/horsesh*t.
The issue with the lighter car -- as Stressed Dave has posted elsewhere -- is lower tyre ground pressure failing to cut through the muck. This combined with a greater reliance on chemical bonding for grip.
Whilst the 7 still has a lot of grip on snow, it has a lot less than on dry tarmac, and that is the thing that catches drivers out:- change in handling one day to next.
I agree, though, Id rather try to catch the back end of the 7 than the number 74.
Good luck with the 911...
7db said:
The issue with the lighter car -- as Stressed Dave has posted elsewhere -- is lower tyre ground pressure failing to cut through the muck. This combined with a greater reliance on chemical bonding for grip.
Good point. 7db said:
Good luck with the 911...
Thank you
I've been planning on getting some more training at Millbrook or similar for a bit of practice with the car on the limit. Hopefully this will limit the amount of luck that I'll need, but the more the merrier Lot of Scandinavian heavies do NOT have spikes in tyres. Surprised me when I saw them and how much grip they did get.
Speaking personally for many years now I have done thousands of kms on winter tyres, both spiked and unspiked.
I find the standard UK rubberwear (ooh matron!) to be very deficient when it comes to ice and snow driving. Combination of widths/profiles/tread patterns and temp ratings which would only be contemplated as true summer tyres in colder climates.
I can recall one occasion last winter when a Mondeo was almost in a terminal understeer situation at less than walking pace. The street cred, such as it is, of tyres looking like hand cut slicks is not much use in bad weather.
Speaking personally for many years now I have done thousands of kms on winter tyres, both spiked and unspiked.
I find the standard UK rubberwear (ooh matron!) to be very deficient when it comes to ice and snow driving. Combination of widths/profiles/tread patterns and temp ratings which would only be contemplated as true summer tyres in colder climates.
I can recall one occasion last winter when a Mondeo was almost in a terminal understeer situation at less than walking pace. The street cred, such as it is,
of tyres looking like hand cut slicks is not much use in bad weather.Another one here owning up to the "dab and twitch" method for establishing grip levels when the need for real press on motoring is presented in slippery times. Difficult to maintain the balance (no pun intended) between determining grip level, smooth safe progress and keeping it on the island.
Agreed that it makes passengers very uncomfortable unless they know what you are doing, and more importantly, know that YOU know what you are doing. If that makes sense.
FiF
Agreed that it makes passengers very uncomfortable unless they know what you are doing, and more importantly, know that YOU know what you are doing. If that makes sense.
FiF
Flat in Fifth said:I couldn't agree more. My CSL came with a set of CSL wheels with Cup tyres and a set of ordinary M3 19" wheels with COnti SportContact 2s "for winter". The CS2s are summer performance tyres (nto very good ones in my opinion) and barely better than the Cups in cold weather. THeri only real advantage is against aquaplaning in standing water and, even then, they are not up to much. I'm now looking for a decent set of winter tyres for the CSL.
Lot of Scandinavian heavies do NOT have spikes in tyres. Surprised me when I saw them and how much grip they did get.
Speaking personally for many years now I have done thousands of kms on winter tyres, both spiked and unspiked.
I find the standard UK rubberwear (ooh matron!) to be very deficient when it comes to ice and snow driving. Combination of widths/profiles/tread patterns and temp ratings which would only be contemplated as true summer tyres in colder climates.
I can recall one occasion last winter when a Mondeo was almost in a terminal understeer situation at less than walking pace. The street cred, such as it is,
GreenV8S said:
Does anyone else to this?
Hell yes. In very slippery conditions I continually provoke very small slides to gauge the amount of grip. The faster I go the more frequent these become, and when I'm right on the ragged edge in very slippery conditions they sort of join up into one continuous not-quite-slide. Being anywhere near the limit of grip without knowing how much grip you have in reserve is a recipe for disaster.
Would you mind coming and having a chat with my Fiancee and some of my mates. They just don't seem to get it!
I am not comfortable unless I know exactly how much traction I have, and a sharpish dab of the brakes or a wiggle of the wheel can give lots of information BEFORE you end up in a terminal slide or inside the correct stopping distance, which on snow or ice can be bloody miles!!
Cheers,
Steve.
Used the dab method yesterday when a snowfall caught everyone unaware in sleepy Cheshire and found it useful. Anti lock brakes, low profile, high performance tyres and all the other electronic wizardry are really a waste of time, the only people making real progress where those in old cars with narrow profile tyres. Found the handbrake was the best way to stop.
When Audi brought out anti locks on some of their cars(80's i think), you could switch it off as their advert stated that you were better off without it in snowy/icy conditions, the build up of snow to the front wheeels was a more efficient way of stopping(??). Obviously, not considered relevant today.
When Audi brought out anti locks on some of their cars(80's i think), you could switch it off as their advert stated that you were better off without it in snowy/icy conditions, the build up of snow to the front wheeels was a more efficient way of stopping(??). Obviously, not considered relevant today.
Personally, rather than dabbing the brakes to test for grip, I've always preferred to try accelerating. Depending on how much traction I think there is, I'll change down to, say, 2nd, give it a few revs and then drop the clutch sharpish and see if we get wheelspin. Same principle, but somehow it seems less scary to find that I can't accelerate, rather than finding I can't stop!
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