Discussion
I'd also be interested in the differences between civilian and police driving qualifications. We have a few grades in the Met of drivers, basics who drive as normal. Response who are trained to drive at high speed and also to the system as per roadcraft, advanced class 2 only who is trained to driver to the system perfect and can drive higher powered cars but not pursue a vehicle, then advanced pursuit where the system is perfect and they are trained in the tactical options for pursuit. Advanced pursuit can have class 1 or 2, 1 being the best. Once advanced I know you can get add ons like close protection driving training etc... Then of course you have response driver instructors, some of whom, including my own, are civilians, then advanced instructors who are usually always police officers. I've never looked at what a civilian can be trained in but was aware of IAM only, extra driving training should be a must for any person driving a warm or hot hach in my opinion, the basic standard of learning is pretty low down when you think of it, especially if you consider how a car and a weapon can be so similar. Did you guys have to put a rev into down changes?
AquilaEagle said:
How can a civillian become the equivalent of a Class 1 Police driver? Or is there no qualification to do so?
AIUI, there are no facilities in the UK whereby a civilian (excluding those working for police etc.) can be trained to that level.
>> Edited by mefoster on Thursday 16th February 14:18
mefoster said:
How can a civillian become the equivalent of a Class 1 Police driver? Or is there no qualification to do so?
AIUI, there are no facilities in the UK whereby a civilian (excluding those working for police etc.) can be trained to that level.
AIUI this is because the extra training given is in the use of blues and twos and, primarily, travelling well above the speed limit. Since only certain police officers under certain conditions have a legal dispensation to break the speed limit this impossible for a civilian.
Race tracks do not emulate the road environment. In fact only Millbrook and Crowthorne strike me as places where it would be legal for civilians to do high speed "road" training - and even then they're not really the same as the M4.
Lots of areas at Millbrook have speed limits which you can't exceed on pain of ejection, the hill route being one (limited to 55 mph). As for civilian equivalent of Class 1 (which does no longer exist), there isn't one. It's like comparing chalk and cheese. As civilians we not only have no right to exceed the speed limit, but the pursuit and emer-run parts of the course are lost to us.
That isn't to say that as MoP we can't achieve or even exceed the levels of Roadcraft exhibited by typical advanced drivers, merely that we'll never have the time pressures or sustained high speed practice that the BiB have.
That isn't to say that as MoP we can't achieve or even exceed the levels of Roadcraft exhibited by typical advanced drivers, merely that we'll never have the time pressures or sustained high speed practice that the BiB have.
mefoster said:
The (retired) police instructor/examiner that I occasionally have private lessons with equates a RoADA Gold to approx class3 divisional driver.
There is no such standard now that I am aware of. There is: basic, standard (standard response) and then advanced Class 1 or 2.
omegac said:
Class 1 (which does no longer exist)
Dave...assuming you mean it doesn't exist for BiB, it does, it's back
Not according to ACPO and CENTREX it doesn't.
Certain driving schools still use it as a differentiator though. Not that I ever saw there being any difference in requirement between 1 & 2 - you still got to drive the same things in the same way. It's just that some were better than others when doing it. I also heard the difference described as being that when you were on your final drive if you took every opportunity you got a Class I. Miss a couple and it was a Class II and take one too many and it was Section I...
What must be bourne in mind of course is that skill levels decrease over time. I have been fortunate to have completed 8 weeks of Police driver training. This consisted of a two week basic course - no blues/twos or response apart from safe stopping of vehicles. Then a 'standard' course - effectively response standard, then a surveillance driving course which would be on par (roughly) with an advanced course, not withstanding it is not "the" advanced course that your typical traffic officer would complete.
This was between 4 and 9 years ago and I am in no doubt that my skill levels, vision etc... have dropped a little. Not massively (IMHO) but I doubt I'd pass the final drive I did on my last course if I jumped in the car with an instructor today.
A friend of mine recently attained a RoSPA silver standard, and I would say his broad skill level is certainly around the same as most Police drivers who have completed a standard car course or Class 3 in old money. As said, no legit outfit would be able to offer something equivalent to an advanced course. I did 136 mph on the A5 near MK on mine, and if a civilian outfit staffed with ex-Police instructors encouraged students to do that they'd be prosecuted!
This was between 4 and 9 years ago and I am in no doubt that my skill levels, vision etc... have dropped a little. Not massively (IMHO) but I doubt I'd pass the final drive I did on my last course if I jumped in the car with an instructor today.
A friend of mine recently attained a RoSPA silver standard, and I would say his broad skill level is certainly around the same as most Police drivers who have completed a standard car course or Class 3 in old money. As said, no legit outfit would be able to offer something equivalent to an advanced course. I did 136 mph on the A5 near MK on mine, and if a civilian outfit staffed with ex-Police instructors encouraged students to do that they'd be prosecuted!
xxplod said:
What must be bourne in mind of course is that skill levels decrease over time.
Gee thanks xxplod, I'm much obliged to you!
I had my driving lessons in 1957 and passed my test in September that year - so where the hell does that leave me now, in view of what you say?
Best wishes all,
Dave - now seriously depressed.
xxplod said:
Sorry Dave! I was making the point that you've got to keep up the tuition and practice if you are to maintain the highest levels of competence, esp. for response/pursuit driving.
Yes of course that makes sense. I only remain safe at high speeds because I keep doing it.
xxplod said:
I'm sure your driving is fine!
I'm sure you're right.
Best wishes all,
Dave - confidence partially restored.
>> Edited by TripleS on Thursday 16th February 19:23
With the Met advanced drivers don't need to be check tested I believe but response drivers like myself need to be check tested evey three years I think along wih eyesight test. I have to say that despoite doing such high speeds it has actually slowed my driving down and then when I bought my supra my driving became alot more cautious and slow around corners. My mate just passed her advanced course and got a class 1, but I doubt you ever get to drive at those speeds again after the course, unless you're in traffic on the motorway of course.
ArghJae said:
Hi there,
I'm new to the forum, just wanted to check on here if anyone has any knowledge on this but IAM is basically the same as being trained by the Police, am I right. We use roadcraft and also go through a 3 week course for a response course.
I just wanted to know as I fully recommend this course to my friends but didn't know if the content was more or less the same as my training, minus the blue lights, sirens and higher than national speed limits of course.
Anyway, this is my first post so hello to all.
Hello there and welcome, ArghJae. I hope you'll enjoy your involvement here, and if you have time for another forum you might like to try Traffic Answers. There's a chap over there with whom I've had various 'discussions' and it was only after a while that I discovered he's not only police Class 1, but he's based at Hendon and he instructs and examines police advanced driving instructors! A far as I'm aware that's probably about as expert as anyone can be when it comes to driving.
Mention my name over there to a chap called 'vonhosen' and see what sort of rude response you get!
Actually we get on very well really. Best wishes all,
Dave.
StressedDave said:
Not according to ACPO and CENTREX it doesn't.
Don't get me started, they probably equated it to kids sports days, ie too competitive for the sensitive souls that were being tested
They do award marks though, and 86+ is a 1, below that a 2.
>> Edited by omegac on Thursday 16th February 20:23
omegac said:
Not according to ACPO and CENTREX it doesn't.
Don't get me started, they probably equated it to kids sports days, ie too competitive for the sensitive souls that were being tested
They do award marks though, and 86+ is a 1, below that a 2.
I seem to recall 'gone' telling us ages ago about one police driver who always achieved a score of 93. I would have my doubts about anybody managing to be that consistent, but who knows...? Very impressive all the same.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Hi Dave,
This forum seems pretty cool. I laughed when you said that the Hendon instructor gives rude responses, I hear that from many people who go up to Hendon for their courses but I'm sure that you won't get a better expert than him. My mate who just got off her advanced course was the only person I know who actually enjoyed their course, but she did say that the attitude of the instructors have changed and that they were quite nice?!?! Something wrong there.
Are you a Police driver yourself?
This forum seems pretty cool. I laughed when you said that the Hendon instructor gives rude responses, I hear that from many people who go up to Hendon for their courses but I'm sure that you won't get a better expert than him. My mate who just got off her advanced course was the only person I know who actually enjoyed their course, but she did say that the attitude of the instructors have changed and that they were quite nice?!?! Something wrong there.
Are you a Police driver yourself?
ArghJae said:
Hi Dave,
This forum seems pretty cool. I laughed when you said that the Hendon instructor gives rude responses, I hear that from many people who go up to Hendon for their courses but I'm sure that you won't get a better expert than him. My mate who just got off her advanced course was the only person I know who actually enjoyed their course, but she did say that the attitude of the instructors have changed and that they were quite nice?!?! Something wrong there.
Are you a Police driver yourself?
No sorry ArghJae, I didn't mean that the Hendon instructor habitually gives rude responses. I was merely anticipating what his response might be if you were to mention my name. My only contacts with the man who uses the name 'vonhosen' have been through web site forums, and as far as I'm concerned we get on very well. Having spent some time arguing with him I was naturally taken aback somewhat when I found out what he does! Being in the law enforcement business he can only disapprove of my attitude to the NSL, but he seems to be fairly understanding, and when advanced driving topics are being discussed he does give some lovely insights into the thinking of the real experts, and this can be most interesting.
As for me being a police driver, no I'm certainly not, but I would like to be able to acquire some of their skills. Unfortunately there seems to be no legitimate way of doing that for the ordinary civilian driver.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
As for me being a police driver, no I'm certainly not, but I would like to be able to acquire some of their skills. Unfortunately there seems to be no legitimate way of doing that for the ordinary civilian driver.
Well, actually there is. Both the IAM and RoSPA will teach you to drive to The System. If you're willing to learn then you WILL "acquire some of their skills". Once you've got the basics right you can move on.
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