Someone turning right into a layby while you're overtaking
Discussion
I'd imagine that most people would anticipate this happening due to the overtakee slowing down, braking, indicating etc. to turn right - and not overtake for that reason.
But what if you didn't or there were no clues (e.g. no braking as the overtakee going slowly and turning into a long layby therefore not needing to slow down before entering the layby ?
I'd think that in the latter case, the driver turning right without looking behind would be to blame. But I guess most people would put the blame on the overtaker.
I'm a bit torn on it though - I suppose it's not any different from a situation when someone turns right without indicating, while being overtaken. In that case it would probably be the overtaker's fault for overtaking past a junction. I know of a few cases of that happening, and the blame was different in each one.
What's your take on this situation?
Reason I'm asking is I came across this quote while looking for more sources about the reservoir crash in Wales ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-13168...
A very unfortunate incident, and condolences to all the victims of course.
Obviously we don't know the details, and the guy had just got back from a ban.
I'm not looking to place blame on one of the drivers involved in this particular accident, it just brought up the thought.
You can see that there's a layby on the right when you're heading to the south east.
But what if you didn't or there were no clues (e.g. no braking as the overtakee going slowly and turning into a long layby therefore not needing to slow down before entering the layby ?
I'd think that in the latter case, the driver turning right without looking behind would be to blame. But I guess most people would put the blame on the overtaker.
I'm a bit torn on it though - I suppose it's not any different from a situation when someone turns right without indicating, while being overtaken. In that case it would probably be the overtaker's fault for overtaking past a junction. I know of a few cases of that happening, and the blame was different in each one.
What's your take on this situation?
Reason I'm asking is I came across this quote while looking for more sources about the reservoir crash in Wales ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-13168...
A very unfortunate incident, and condolences to all the victims of course.
Obviously we don't know the details, and the guy had just got back from a ban.
I'm not looking to place blame on one of the drivers involved in this particular accident, it just brought up the thought.
witness said:
The other driver said he was overtaking when the woman suddenly turned right into a layby. He collided with her and shunted her car into the water
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3541381/...
Take a look at the map here: http://goo.gl/maps/icbShttp://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3541381/...
You can see that there's a layby on the right when you're heading to the south east.
Edited by L555BAT on Saturday 23 April 00:13
If thats the scene of the crash I am amazed that 4/5 died. It's not much of a drop to the water. So either he hit them very very hard and/or they were in a not particularly safe car or was a serious case of bad luck involved.
But to answer the topic of the thread I suppose you have to judge it case by case. If someone is slowing and you spot a turning/layby you could anticipate what they might be slowing for but they could just as easily have been travelling at the same speed for the last mile or they might make a sudden change of decision and dive bomb it leaving you with no warning.
But to answer the topic of the thread I suppose you have to judge it case by case. If someone is slowing and you spot a turning/layby you could anticipate what they might be slowing for but they could just as easily have been travelling at the same speed for the last mile or they might make a sudden change of decision and dive bomb it leaving you with no warning.
L555BAT said:
I'm a bit torn on it though - I suppose it's not any different from a situation when someone turns right without indicating, while being overtaken. In that case it would probably be the overtaker's fault for overtaking past a junction. I know of a few cases of that happening, and the blame was different in each one.
Bingo.The would-be overtaker should treat an offside lay-by the same as any other offside turning. It doesn't matter whether the car ahead isn't slowing or isn't indicating - you just don't put yourself in that vulnerable position.
If you're looking for an overtake, and approaching a lay-by, you can move out to the oncoming lane (assuming that there is no vehicle in lay-by that could set off from it) and hang back, both improving your view and potentially facilitating an overtake after you've passed the lay-by. Trying to execute an overtake whilst you're going past it, however, is a no-no.
L555BAT said:
I'd imagine that most people would anticipate this happening due to the overtakee slowing down, braking, indicating etc. to turn right - and not overtake for that reason.
But what if you didn't or there were no clues (e.g. no braking as the overtakee going slowly and turning into a long layby therefore not needing to slow down before entering the layby ?
I'd think that in the latter case, the driver turning right without looking behind would be to blame. But I guess most people would put the blame on the overtaker.
I'm a bit torn on it though - I suppose it's not any different from a situation when someone turns right without indicating, while being overtaken. In that case it would probably be the overtaker's fault for overtaking past a junction. I know of a few cases of that happening, and the blame was different in each one.
What's your take on this situation?
Reason I'm asking is I came across this quote while looking for more sources about the reservoir crash in Wales ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-13168...
A very unfortunate incident, and condolences to all the victims of course.
Obviously we don't know the details, and the guy had just got back from a ban.
I'm not looking to place blame on one of the drivers involved in this particular accident, it just brought up the thought.
You can see that there's a layby on the right when you're heading to the south east.
No clues other than an option on the right & that option being available to the vehicle ?But what if you didn't or there were no clues (e.g. no braking as the overtakee going slowly and turning into a long layby therefore not needing to slow down before entering the layby ?
I'd think that in the latter case, the driver turning right without looking behind would be to blame. But I guess most people would put the blame on the overtaker.
I'm a bit torn on it though - I suppose it's not any different from a situation when someone turns right without indicating, while being overtaken. In that case it would probably be the overtaker's fault for overtaking past a junction. I know of a few cases of that happening, and the blame was different in each one.
What's your take on this situation?
Reason I'm asking is I came across this quote while looking for more sources about the reservoir crash in Wales ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-13168...
A very unfortunate incident, and condolences to all the victims of course.
Obviously we don't know the details, and the guy had just got back from a ban.
I'm not looking to place blame on one of the drivers involved in this particular accident, it just brought up the thought.
witness said:
The other driver said he was overtaking when the woman suddenly turned right into a layby. He collided with her and shunted her car into the water
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3541381/...
Take a look at the map here: http://goo.gl/maps/icbShttp://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3541381/...
You can see that there's a layby on the right when you're heading to the south east.
Edited by L555BAT on Saturday 23 April 00:13
For me the greater responsibility is with the overtaker.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 23 April 09:31
Without wishing to delve in too deeply, and with great sympathy for those who died, I imagine the family in the people carrier were driving slowly and enjoying the view, and when the driver realised there was a layby she decided to pull into it in a very much snap judgement.
What I can't figure out from that is how the car ended up in the lake. Unless the other car was flying down the hill and looking to do a momentum overtake, I can't see how there could have been enough energy involved to shunt the car off the road if it was already going slowly enough to make a safe and controlled stop in that layby (which, looking at street view is just a bit of sloping verge), and even then the reports say the car was clipped rather than smashed into. Very, very odd.
What I can't figure out from that is how the car ended up in the lake. Unless the other car was flying down the hill and looking to do a momentum overtake, I can't see how there could have been enough energy involved to shunt the car off the road if it was already going slowly enough to make a safe and controlled stop in that layby (which, looking at street view is just a bit of sloping verge), and even then the reports say the car was clipped rather than smashed into. Very, very odd.
Johnnytheboy said:
If the car he was overtaking was turning right he may have tried to dive to the left of her and clipped her rear left with his front right, thus shunting her as described.
That would seem to make sense. But the same would be true if he was not overtaking the car when it decided to pull into the layby surely?Why does the SUN picture only show 1 lane on the road?
Looking at the pic, it show solid white nearest to the camera and dashed white on edge on the layby, while in google the solid white is on the far left side of the road with the dashed line in the middle between the two lanes.
Where has the other lane gone?
Was the guy going for the overtake, people carrier pulled right and he had just enough time to dive left but clipped the carrier as it pulled across the road?
Looking at the pic, it show solid white nearest to the camera and dashed white on edge on the layby, while in google the solid white is on the far left side of the road with the dashed line in the middle between the two lanes.
Where has the other lane gone?
Was the guy going for the overtake, people carrier pulled right and he had just enough time to dive left but clipped the carrier as it pulled across the road?
Benbay001 said:
Please, never post The Sun as a source.
Sorry 
I know it isn't a reliable source but as I said I was looking for more news sources on the story, and often less-than reputable ones such as The Sun can have more information as they're not so bothered about what they print being exactly 100% true and fully verifiable.
supertouring said:
Why does the SUN picture only show 1 lane on the road?
Looking at the pic, it show solid white nearest to the camera and dashed white on edge on the layby, while in google the solid white is on the far left side of the road with the dashed line in the middle between the two lanes.
Where has the other lane gone?
I think the shot just happens to have all of a long hazard centre line across it. BBC pic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-13174...Looking at the pic, it show solid white nearest to the camera and dashed white on edge on the layby, while in google the solid white is on the far left side of the road with the dashed line in the middle between the two lanes.
Where has the other lane gone?
Also interestingly, the portion of the road parallel to the layby has been removed from Google Street View.
Looking at the road and the car pictured I would say the lady driving the people carrier moved gently over into the layby, in other words not making a sharp right hand turn, as the Mondeo driver was coming up for a rolling overtake and he shunted into the back of her pushing her into the reservoir. Though the picture I saw of the people carrier after it had been fished out of the water and loaded onto the back of a lorry didn't seem to show any rear end damage. The reason the occupants died was that they were trapped in the vehicle underwater.
No one is compelled to overtake so I would say the onus is on anybody wishing to overtake not to create a potentially dangerous situation by overtaking where someone may decide to turn.
No one is compelled to overtake so I would say the onus is on anybody wishing to overtake not to create a potentially dangerous situation by overtaking where someone may decide to turn.
Blakewater said:
No one is compelled to overtake so I would say the onus is on anybody wishing to overtake not to create a potentially dangerous situation by overtaking where someone may decide to turn.
100% this. But it would be crazy to judge based on the limited knowledge we have. I found this thread after the court case of this accident surfaced in the news today. I am sure both sides will present their case over the next few days/weeks but here is my generalised take on it.
When I was learning to drive I was told that if I don't indicate I could be blamed for the accident. I was also told that indicating does not give you the right to turn and you still need to check your mirror before changing lanes (or pulling on the oncoming lane lay-by as it is the case here).
I will also disagree with the statement that if you are overtaking you are responsible. Overtaking is legal when it is not dangerous (overtaking at blind corner, not enough space etc). If you zoom in at the google map down to street view you will see that road markings dont disallow overtaking and visibility is good on that road as the road gently curves to the right. Also, the lay-by is not considered a road junction and it is not marked as such.
So who's fault is it? I'd say that if the lady was already turning right towards the lay-by before the overtaking started the fault will predominately lie with the overtaker. However, if she pulled to the right without checking her mirrors and the overtaking had already started the fault is clearly hers.
When I was learning to drive I was told that if I don't indicate I could be blamed for the accident. I was also told that indicating does not give you the right to turn and you still need to check your mirror before changing lanes (or pulling on the oncoming lane lay-by as it is the case here).
I will also disagree with the statement that if you are overtaking you are responsible. Overtaking is legal when it is not dangerous (overtaking at blind corner, not enough space etc). If you zoom in at the google map down to street view you will see that road markings dont disallow overtaking and visibility is good on that road as the road gently curves to the right. Also, the lay-by is not considered a road junction and it is not marked as such.
So who's fault is it? I'd say that if the lady was already turning right towards the lay-by before the overtaking started the fault will predominately lie with the overtaker. However, if she pulled to the right without checking her mirrors and the overtaking had already started the fault is clearly hers.
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