Return of the Renault 5
Discussion
SWoll said:
Crafty_ said:
_Mja_ said:
But electric so may as well just get the basic model which will be plenty quick enough around town and the country lanes and sound exactly the same.
I think this is a problem for all manufacturers - why buy the M / AMG / GTI / whatever, with an EV the differences wil be minimal and certainly not worth the premiums. Even more than now they'll just become trim levels.From my own experience and lesser budget on my own toys I have a Corrado 16v and a Corrado VR6 in my little collection. The VR6 has a sense of occassion the 16v can't get anywhere near, yet they both handle and look the same. Well the VR6 is better spec'd but same idea. I think that step difference because of drivetrain will disappear with EVs. If it was an EV Corrado with 220hp vs 165hp (my own cars are tuned with cams etc and that is also something you can't have fun with in a EV) I wouldn't bother with the higher powered version as that's not what I enjoy most about it and both cars are quick enough to have fun on the country lanes I play with them on.
But saying all of that above I get some people don't care about the noise and smells; they just want a competent product which EVs are. Perhaps I'll find something to appreciate about them but it won't be just because they are quick. Quick gets old quick.
_Mja_ said:
I think for me, taking Audi as an example, the RS models although all the trim and chassis improvements it's ultimately the engine - noise (both driving and sitting at idle) and power delivery that gets me excited. Yeah an EV may be quick and have a great chassis but I just can't see it have the sense of occassion like a nice petrol has.
From my own experience and lesser budget on my own toys I have a Corrado 16v and a Corrado VR6 in my little collection. The VR6 has a sense of occassion the 16v can't get anywhere near, yet they both handle and look the same. Well the VR6 is better spec'd but same idea. I think that step difference because of drivetrain will disappear with EVs. If it was an EV Corrado with 220hp vs 165hp (my own cars are tuned with cams etc and that is also something you can't have fun with in a EV) I wouldn't bother with the higher powered version as that's not what I enjoy most about it and both cars are quick enough to have fun on the country lanes I play with them on.
But saying all of that above I get some people don't care about the noise and smells; they just want a competent product which EVs are. Perhaps I'll find something to appreciate about them but it won't be just because they are quick. Quick gets old quick.
Thing is, we're almost there already. The Corrado comes from the the wonder years when manufacturers offered real choice under the bonnet. Boggo SOHC 4, peaky DOHC 4, whining supercharged 4, or sonorous 6; you pays your money, you take your pick.From my own experience and lesser budget on my own toys I have a Corrado 16v and a Corrado VR6 in my little collection. The VR6 has a sense of occassion the 16v can't get anywhere near, yet they both handle and look the same. Well the VR6 is better spec'd but same idea. I think that step difference because of drivetrain will disappear with EVs. If it was an EV Corrado with 220hp vs 165hp (my own cars are tuned with cams etc and that is also something you can't have fun with in a EV) I wouldn't bother with the higher powered version as that's not what I enjoy most about it and both cars are quick enough to have fun on the country lanes I play with them on.
But saying all of that above I get some people don't care about the noise and smells; they just want a competent product which EVs are. Perhaps I'll find something to appreciate about them but it won't be just because they are quick. Quick gets old quick.
Today, it's basically turbo 3 or turbo 4 on something Corrado sized. Same power characteristics, just more on the hot one. The 3 might sound different, but they all have fake Gran Turismo sounds now anyway. You pays your money, you take your pick of engine map...
Yeah I agree there, I'm stuck in a pre 90s era myslef. I can see we've been at this different shades of grey thing for a quite a while and that's probably why I gave up buying new cars... I can have 5 old ones for the same price and they don't depreciate (but cost a fortune in bodywork haha)
tty crossover style wheels. Why not something that looks like the Gordini GT type wheel, or something like the Compomotive alloys?Love it! Actually have high hopes for this, but in a kind of similar yet opposite way to the Honda E.
The Honda concept looked fantastic, but the production version, well, you know... This also looks great, but I think that watering down the looks to a more basic sort of production spec would suit it if done sympathetically. As long as they keep some key R5 styling cues that is.
The Honda concept looked fantastic, but the production version, well, you know... This also looks great, but I think that watering down the looks to a more basic sort of production spec would suit it if done sympathetically. As long as they keep some key R5 styling cues that is.
I like it.
But it does need different wheels - those arches are begging for some OZ, ronal turbo, rondell, or compomotive rally slag type wheels
But it does need different wheels - those arches are begging for some OZ, ronal turbo, rondell, or compomotive rally slag type wheels
300bhp/ton said:
Just look at the finer details, like no windscreen wipers, mirrors too small to see out of, lack of indicators and side repeaters.
We did all that stuff to them back in the max power days... this one obviously just comes pre-modified SWoll said:
Not understanding how it's any different to ICE personally? Performance versions of EV's could have different suspension, brakes, styling, interior and power/performance in comparison to standard just as with ICE?
Because at a base level EVs can offer more than adequate performance for the road - there is (as far as I can see) not much equivalent to a 70hp fiesta/corsa/whatever that will struggle 4 up on a motorway incline for example.Yes EV vehicles can have enourmous torque instantly, but do you need 1000lb/ft to pull away from a set of lights? no, not really, whatever a boggo model has will be fine - moreso than a boggo ICE.
If you want to create a perfomance version it can have 1000lb/ft, it'll be limited by tyres and electronic wizardry that will do its best to prevent you from sticking it in a ditch or doing a neat pirouette off the lights. So, at that point, why bother having all that performance ?
On the rare perfect day with great conditions and a fresh set of tyres you'll be able to use all of it.. how often is that going to be ?
given the number of cars on our roads its difficult enough to drive for pleasure as it is.
Most people are going to get in a boggo model EV and be pretty impressed with its performance, which will exceed its ICE predecessor, as a result the EV has better brakes/suspension to cope..
- "yes sir and if you step this way you can see our superduper model, only £20k extra sir..." or more likely "another £x00 a month". There just won't be enough to justify it - its not the 90s where boggo models got black plastic bumpers, cloth interiors, plastic wheel trims and manual windows - even now top level models have little extra other than drivetrain and EVs will make the better drivetrain a minimal advantage.
For most people a car is just about getting around, long as it looks half decent, thats enough.
Ultimately manufacturers won't care, they'll be turning out cars to people moving from ICE cars and making a fortune out of it. Then soon, they'll be another generation as the tech improve further, so they'll shift loads of those. Then maybe solid state batteries or hydrogen etc.. there's always something going to come along.
If performance versions don't sell they'll be dropped, manufacturers don't need them, just like (for example) Audi doesn't need the TT any more because punters want an SUV, not a 2 and a bit seater sportscar.
Yes, much of the charm of an ICE car has been lost in recent times, totally agree, but its still there and to me, EVs remove that last bit. It just becomes even more bland and sterile (and god knows, they're already both as it is). I'm sure some will disagree, not I'm seeing anything that makes me think any differently.
SWoll said:
Not understanding how it's any different to ICE personally? Performance versions of EV's could have different suspension, brakes, styling, interior and power/performance in comparison to standard just as with ICE?
Yep agreed, Tesla’s currently come in a few variations in drivetrain, single motor, dual motor and soon tri motor. The “Ludicrous” performance models have a different electric motor on the back axle compared to the standard models. And the Taycan has 2 gears which is pretty unique on an EV.Considering we are at the dawn of EV’s there’s already differentiation, and it’s only going to continue to evolve.
And edited to add - I had a phase 2 red R5GTT in the early 90’s, loved that car and would buy this in a heartbeat if it made it to production like that.
Crafty_ said:
Because at a base level EVs can offer more than adequate performance for the road - there is (as far as I can see) not much equivalent to a 70hp fiesta/corsa/whatever that will struggle 4 up on a motorway incline for example.
Not yet maybe, but the Leaf and zoe are not really so far off. Neither are that speedy at all. Even less so in their first guises.Lets also not forget EV's are and have been expensive. But if they become properly mainstream and cheaper, expect much lower performance ones too.
There is a huge array of things that can impact EV performance. From the specs of the motor to the type of battery being used. In fact battery might be the biggest player. But of course the software can be used to easily program in a huge array of performance levels. Especially when combined with different motors and batteries.
If they have systems ready with ample performance, why spend money developing a downgraded version for low performance ? is construction cost going to be significantly lower ?
An ID3 has ~200hp in old terms. Enough to do 100mph and 0-60 in 7.3 seconds. Certainly better than a 1 litre golf.
An ICE GTI does 155mph and 0-60 in 5.9.
So lets say a ID3 GTI has the same performance as the ICE.
Why pay thousands more for the GTI when the boggo model will quite adequate ?
Hardly the same as when your dad has a 1300 sierra and his mate turned up in a 220hp cosworth version is it. or a 316 vs a E30 M3 etc.
Nowadays an Audi S or even RS needs a good look to tell it apart from a normal model and they aren't alone. The only significant difference is drivetrain and that gap will (already is?) narrowing with EVs.
I'm really not sure how manufacturers are going to coax significant extra money out of punters for an M / AMG / RS etc model
I suppose, if anything it will be extra novelty gadgets - semes to be what sells cars now - phone integration, wireless phone charging, remote start via app etc.
An ID3 has ~200hp in old terms. Enough to do 100mph and 0-60 in 7.3 seconds. Certainly better than a 1 litre golf.
An ICE GTI does 155mph and 0-60 in 5.9.
So lets say a ID3 GTI has the same performance as the ICE.
Why pay thousands more for the GTI when the boggo model will quite adequate ?
Hardly the same as when your dad has a 1300 sierra and his mate turned up in a 220hp cosworth version is it. or a 316 vs a E30 M3 etc.
Nowadays an Audi S or even RS needs a good look to tell it apart from a normal model and they aren't alone. The only significant difference is drivetrain and that gap will (already is?) narrowing with EVs.
I'm really not sure how manufacturers are going to coax significant extra money out of punters for an M / AMG / RS etc model
I suppose, if anything it will be extra novelty gadgets - semes to be what sells cars now - phone integration, wireless phone charging, remote start via app etc.
Like electric bikes, the difference will probably be range. E-bikes come with 400, 500, 650w batteries, each costing several hundred quid more, per level and you get better suspension, forks etc. The fact people will pay £5-£10k for a high spec e-bike shows people will pay for the better components.
There are plenty of folk who would be happy with a 100 mile range glorified Twizy for shopping and enough juice to get to the airport for their holidays and, increasingly, just being an EV is going to be enough, for the "green eco" brigade for low running costs.
There are plenty of folk who would be happy with a 100 mile range glorified Twizy for shopping and enough juice to get to the airport for their holidays and, increasingly, just being an EV is going to be enough, for the "green eco" brigade for low running costs.
Edited by LuS1fer on Friday 15th January 13:27
Crafty_ said:
Thats rich coming from you.
Not really.But why do you think it will cost more to develop less powerful EV's?
On that rational why has any car company ever offered different power outputs of the same petrol engine? Which nearly all of them do, many many times. The model is unlikely to change just because the powerplant is different. People will pay more for more performance. And not everyone needs huge performance. So they can and will tailor models to suit.
Besides, lower spec motors and batteries don't really need extra R&D, they already exist. So there are production material savings to be had by building lower spec versions, more designed for mass market bulk sales.
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