Considering Bentley Turbo R purchase
Discussion
mark387mw said:
The problem here in New Zealand is very few come on the market. Those that do are usually imported from the UK twenty years ago, or more recently the Asian market of Japan or Singapore and in each case the service history is unlikely to be comprehensive. And at around £22,000 these cars are, I could possibly get a belter from the UK shipped over with full service history.
Don't like the chrome embellishments, like someone has fiddled around with it. This combined with the fact it seems to be running on different tyres could suggest (but not always) that it's been run on a low budget. I'd consider importing from the UK if choice is poor in NZ. You can get a very nice car for that sort of price in the UK - you just need to get it inspected fist because. Infact I think you can get a really nice one for a lot less than that. It's a buyer's market.To continue this tread, just in case my contribution may help, I have owned a '1990' Turbo R for 5 years.
I made the mistake of buying with my heart,although I am not a complete idiot, and my head brain was switched 'on' at the time.
All the SZ series (Spirit, Spur, Mulsanne, Eight, Turbo, are relatively cheap to buy, but the Corniche and Continental fort hose years are in a wholly different price league. For 1989 the Eight was around £60k, but the Turbo was around £104k, so with the maintenance costs being much the same a Turbo could eventually be a (sort of investment). With that Turbo you don't have to worry about options, as most cars a fully optioned at list (the picnic tables and drinks cabinet(s) excepted.
The model-year thing is a bit like the American system, with the model changes coming in towards the end of the year. So my November 1989 Turbo is the '1990' model, with active ride and extra ventilation 'bulls-eyes'. Pre October 1989 cars will not have active ride, and as has been mentioned this can be very expensive to maintain. Given the choice I think I would now opt for pre-active ride. The fronts are £1k a piece, and the rears a lot worse(!). Check out Flying Spares prices for parts, and you will see what I mean. Mention has been made of active ride (auto-ride, it is called) on the Turbo producing a hard ride - 'crashy' is the way I have heard it described.
Engines are pretty much bullet-proof, but I have heard of head-gasket problems on later cars ('93 on?). Transmission-wise, I believe that pre-1993 had the GM THM400 transmission (sae as the Trans-Am), which is very robust. Later cars had a 4-speed. When released this car was attributed a sub 7 second 0-60 time. They go!
Rather more at issue is whether they stop (check out breakers' ads on e-bay where invariably you will see the subject car was the subject of a front-end collision). The braking system is interestingly complex. The system relies on pumped hydraulic fluid. From sartre dash will display a warning light saying STOP, which extinguishes when the system reaches press. 10 seconds from un-prssurised to pressurised is good. Generally the system will pressure-up much quicker if started within, say, 2-3 hours of previously having been run. If you find yourself waiting 30 seconds for the second of the two warning lights to go out then there are hydraulic issues to consider.
Ride-height is often an issue. If the car has 'saggy bottom' syndrome then something is wrong a la derriere. It could be hydraulic, but these cars are heavy and they break springs (I kid you not). Throw in spring-cups, spring-seats, trailing arms and other bits and pieces you have to do if the springs need replacing, and the bill can be exotic.
For the pre-1993 cars tyres can be a real nightmare. Only one tyre fits the Turbo15" wheels and that is the Avon CR27. List is £900+ each. The cheapest I have seen them is £240, but I understand availability is dependant upon Avon doing a manufacturing run, so if you ee them at £240 and click 'buy', I have no idea whether you end sitting and waiting....and waiting...and waiting. If anyone has bought cheap on line please let me know whether the order was fulfilled. Later cars with the 17" wheel size will give you a wider range of (more) affordable tyres.
A big problem with all the SZ cars is rust. They ALL rust (sorry, but if you have the one rust-free car, you are blessed). The panels are a mixture of aluminium and steel, with beadwork, with chrome over brass fittings, which is an electrolytic smorgasbord. Sills (inner and outer), floor-pan(s), wheel-arches and lower wings rot (check out Flying Spares site for 'popular' repair panels, and tot up the prices with vat and freight). Lower-half re-spray will be needed when panel-repair becomes necessary. Brake pipes rust (this seems extraordinary, but true), and there is a lot of pipework. Throw in a couple of calipers if the pipes can't be got out, and you have a £1,500 bill.
These cars can leak, and an obvious sign of this (apart from misted glass when the car is sitting in the sun with windows shut) is the smell. Check beneath the carpets (newspaper beneath foam layer under the fitted carpets is a give-away). This can be from around the screen, through the scuttle, around the door-seals, or (I have heard) through the window-seal and behind the door-cards. This can be a real problem to diagnose, and getting rid of the 'wet-dog' smell can be nigh-on impossible.
Re-spraying is a nightmare. RR&B used TPA paint,with does not like (a) itself (b) heat (c) light (d) other paint and solvents. You will invariably see crows-feet in the 'hot-spots', by which I mean bonnet, tops of front wings and roof. Partial re-spraying can result in neighbouring panels reacting. These are BIG cars wth lots of trim, and you are talking about big money for a proper re-spray.
Electrics are something else. Seat-electrics may have failed, windows may not all operate (often they will go down but not up), heating/ventilation/air-con can develop some interesting issues, and the cruise control usually fails. There are ECUs for everything, and lots to go wrong. Central locking can be problematic, as well as alarm and immobiliser.
Service history is pretty much irrelevant. These cars were bought by the super-rich - £104k in 1989 would have bought you a 3 bed semi in an OK London suburb. They were then traded, and eventually passed into the hands of miserable skinflints and shifty b
ds. Accumulated neglect, when you are finally forced to address it, can lead to huge bills. It is worth buying through a reputable dealer (not a second-hand car dealer who has taken a car in px, and is shifting it on), as you will then get some warranted recent history.
What I am really saying is that you have to LOVE these cars t justify buying one. Maintaining one is marginally cheaper than a divorce, so don't make the mistake of buying one because it seems to be too cheap to be true. You can get a lot of late-model Mercedes for the price a Turbo will end up costing you in just 2 years of purchase and servicing/repairs. After 5 years you will tot up the bills and think "hey I could have bought a super-spec'd Arnage, or even a Continental R.
And after all this I still have my car, the one and transmission is strong, the auto-ride works, most of the electrics are functional, the rust is done, it drives and stops, has hot and cold air inside, and I have just refurbed the 15" wheels for some new Avon CR27s. I am, of course, aware, that I am not quite right in the head............
I made the mistake of buying with my heart,although I am not a complete idiot, and my head brain was switched 'on' at the time.
All the SZ series (Spirit, Spur, Mulsanne, Eight, Turbo, are relatively cheap to buy, but the Corniche and Continental fort hose years are in a wholly different price league. For 1989 the Eight was around £60k, but the Turbo was around £104k, so with the maintenance costs being much the same a Turbo could eventually be a (sort of investment). With that Turbo you don't have to worry about options, as most cars a fully optioned at list (the picnic tables and drinks cabinet(s) excepted.
The model-year thing is a bit like the American system, with the model changes coming in towards the end of the year. So my November 1989 Turbo is the '1990' model, with active ride and extra ventilation 'bulls-eyes'. Pre October 1989 cars will not have active ride, and as has been mentioned this can be very expensive to maintain. Given the choice I think I would now opt for pre-active ride. The fronts are £1k a piece, and the rears a lot worse(!). Check out Flying Spares prices for parts, and you will see what I mean. Mention has been made of active ride (auto-ride, it is called) on the Turbo producing a hard ride - 'crashy' is the way I have heard it described.
Engines are pretty much bullet-proof, but I have heard of head-gasket problems on later cars ('93 on?). Transmission-wise, I believe that pre-1993 had the GM THM400 transmission (sae as the Trans-Am), which is very robust. Later cars had a 4-speed. When released this car was attributed a sub 7 second 0-60 time. They go!
Rather more at issue is whether they stop (check out breakers' ads on e-bay where invariably you will see the subject car was the subject of a front-end collision). The braking system is interestingly complex. The system relies on pumped hydraulic fluid. From sartre dash will display a warning light saying STOP, which extinguishes when the system reaches press. 10 seconds from un-prssurised to pressurised is good. Generally the system will pressure-up much quicker if started within, say, 2-3 hours of previously having been run. If you find yourself waiting 30 seconds for the second of the two warning lights to go out then there are hydraulic issues to consider.
Ride-height is often an issue. If the car has 'saggy bottom' syndrome then something is wrong a la derriere. It could be hydraulic, but these cars are heavy and they break springs (I kid you not). Throw in spring-cups, spring-seats, trailing arms and other bits and pieces you have to do if the springs need replacing, and the bill can be exotic.
For the pre-1993 cars tyres can be a real nightmare. Only one tyre fits the Turbo15" wheels and that is the Avon CR27. List is £900+ each. The cheapest I have seen them is £240, but I understand availability is dependant upon Avon doing a manufacturing run, so if you ee them at £240 and click 'buy', I have no idea whether you end sitting and waiting....and waiting...and waiting. If anyone has bought cheap on line please let me know whether the order was fulfilled. Later cars with the 17" wheel size will give you a wider range of (more) affordable tyres.
A big problem with all the SZ cars is rust. They ALL rust (sorry, but if you have the one rust-free car, you are blessed). The panels are a mixture of aluminium and steel, with beadwork, with chrome over brass fittings, which is an electrolytic smorgasbord. Sills (inner and outer), floor-pan(s), wheel-arches and lower wings rot (check out Flying Spares site for 'popular' repair panels, and tot up the prices with vat and freight). Lower-half re-spray will be needed when panel-repair becomes necessary. Brake pipes rust (this seems extraordinary, but true), and there is a lot of pipework. Throw in a couple of calipers if the pipes can't be got out, and you have a £1,500 bill.
These cars can leak, and an obvious sign of this (apart from misted glass when the car is sitting in the sun with windows shut) is the smell. Check beneath the carpets (newspaper beneath foam layer under the fitted carpets is a give-away). This can be from around the screen, through the scuttle, around the door-seals, or (I have heard) through the window-seal and behind the door-cards. This can be a real problem to diagnose, and getting rid of the 'wet-dog' smell can be nigh-on impossible.
Re-spraying is a nightmare. RR&B used TPA paint,with does not like (a) itself (b) heat (c) light (d) other paint and solvents. You will invariably see crows-feet in the 'hot-spots', by which I mean bonnet, tops of front wings and roof. Partial re-spraying can result in neighbouring panels reacting. These are BIG cars wth lots of trim, and you are talking about big money for a proper re-spray.
Electrics are something else. Seat-electrics may have failed, windows may not all operate (often they will go down but not up), heating/ventilation/air-con can develop some interesting issues, and the cruise control usually fails. There are ECUs for everything, and lots to go wrong. Central locking can be problematic, as well as alarm and immobiliser.
Service history is pretty much irrelevant. These cars were bought by the super-rich - £104k in 1989 would have bought you a 3 bed semi in an OK London suburb. They were then traded, and eventually passed into the hands of miserable skinflints and shifty b
ds. Accumulated neglect, when you are finally forced to address it, can lead to huge bills. It is worth buying through a reputable dealer (not a second-hand car dealer who has taken a car in px, and is shifting it on), as you will then get some warranted recent history. What I am really saying is that you have to LOVE these cars t justify buying one. Maintaining one is marginally cheaper than a divorce, so don't make the mistake of buying one because it seems to be too cheap to be true. You can get a lot of late-model Mercedes for the price a Turbo will end up costing you in just 2 years of purchase and servicing/repairs. After 5 years you will tot up the bills and think "hey I could have bought a super-spec'd Arnage, or even a Continental R.
And after all this I still have my car, the one and transmission is strong, the auto-ride works, most of the electrics are functional, the rust is done, it drives and stops, has hot and cold air inside, and I have just refurbed the 15" wheels for some new Avon CR27s. I am, of course, aware, that I am not quite right in the head............
Very informative post Keith - but I think you are a bit harsh - you have to remember your car is 27 years old now.
For the age I think they are more resilient to rust than other vehicles of the same era. My own car seems excellent on this front - the underside is extremely well factory undersealed (even better than my 1996 Audi A6/100, and that is really saying something!! because that older generation of Audi were seriously well made).
All in all, there is a following for these cars because they really are unique and like nothing else on the road.
For the age I think they are more resilient to rust than other vehicles of the same era. My own car seems excellent on this front - the underside is extremely well factory undersealed (even better than my 1996 Audi A6/100, and that is really saying something!! because that older generation of Audi were seriously well made).
All in all, there is a following for these cars because they really are unique and like nothing else on the road.
matt5791 said:
Very informative post Keith - but I think you are a bit harsh - you have to remember your car is 27 years old now.
For the age I think they are more resilient to rust than other vehicles of the same era. My own car seems excellent on this front - the underside is extremely well factory undersealed (even better than my 1996 Audi A6/100, and that is really saying something!! because that older generation of Audi were seriously well made).
All in all, there is a following for these cars because they really are unique and like nothing else on the road.
Harsh? Perhaps a little given that most normal 25+year old cars will have disappeared from the roads, but also realistic as I would recommend anyone buying one now to have it checked very carefully for corrosion....For the age I think they are more resilient to rust than other vehicles of the same era. My own car seems excellent on this front - the underside is extremely well factory undersealed (even better than my 1996 Audi A6/100, and that is really saying something!! because that older generation of Audi were seriously well made).
All in all, there is a following for these cars because they really are unique and like nothing else on the road.
Due to illness I have been instructed (by my wife) not to drive. I have a 1990 Bentley Turbo R in Windsor blue with parchment interior. Mechanically very good, and I was about to have some bodywork tidied up, and the driver's seat ECU sorted. I am in Barnet North London if anyone wants to have a look. KEITH 07973 561294
When people say it’s well worth getting a PPI, would you still get one if buying from a dealer like Ghost Motors? They seem to have a good rep and clearly know the cars inside out so can’t imagine they would sell a pup.
Also, can someone advise on the service schedule and rough cost for the A, B etc. I’ve not turned up much that is fully conclusive on the net.
Oh and thirdly, does anyone keep their Turbo r on the driveway or road? If I got one it would be on the drive (nice enough estate) and would probably put in storage for the salty months. I do have a garage but the Caterham lives in there. If a Bentley was in there I wouldn’t have any space for the workbench tools etc.
Thanks,
SS
Also, can someone advise on the service schedule and rough cost for the A, B etc. I’ve not turned up much that is fully conclusive on the net.
Oh and thirdly, does anyone keep their Turbo r on the driveway or road? If I got one it would be on the drive (nice enough estate) and would probably put in storage for the salty months. I do have a garage but the Caterham lives in there. If a Bentley was in there I wouldn’t have any space for the workbench tools etc.
Thanks,
SS
snapper seven said:
When people say it’s well worth getting a PPI, would you still get one if buying from a dealer like Ghost Motors? They seem to have a good rep and clearly know the cars inside out so can’t imagine they would sell a pup.
Also, can someone advise on the service schedule and rough cost for the A, B etc. I’ve not turned up much that is fully conclusive on the net.
Oh and thirdly, does anyone keep their Turbo r on the driveway or road? If I got one it would be on the drive (nice enough estate) and would probably put in storage for the salty months. I do have a garage but the Caterham lives in there. If a Bentley was in there I wouldn’t have any space for the workbench tools etc.
Thanks,
SS
I bought by Turbo R from a recognized RR & B dealer, but nevertheless arranged for another specialist to carry out a PPI - if I remember correctly it cost around GBP 250-300 some 10-years ago, but it was worth it for peace of mind, and I would do so again if buying now.Also, can someone advise on the service schedule and rough cost for the A, B etc. I’ve not turned up much that is fully conclusive on the net.
Oh and thirdly, does anyone keep their Turbo r on the driveway or road? If I got one it would be on the drive (nice enough estate) and would probably put in storage for the salty months. I do have a garage but the Caterham lives in there. If a Bentley was in there I wouldn’t have any space for the workbench tools etc.
Thanks,
SS
Strangely enough, I did consider a car from Ghost Motors, but they were less enthusiastic about a “rival” carrying out a PPI for me, and that put me off it. Things maybe different now.
Regarding parking it outside, you still seem them kept on the streets in the wealthier suburbs of London, but they can be susceptible to rust - if you check with Flying Spares it seems to be one of the main reasons why cars end up with them for breaking - so I personally wouldn’t choose to keep one outside.
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