GT Speed

[Balmoral Green]

NDA said:

The people that work at Bentley say it's a Bentley (even their pay-checks are marked Bentley Motors), the people who sell them say they're Bentleys, the owners feel sure they're Bentleys too, the engines say Bentley on them, even the paperwork from the DVLA said it was a Bentley.

But how is any of that any different from when they were Rolls Royces? It was understood by everyone a few years ago that a Bentley was a branded Rolls Royce, but how come it isn't now?

Also, I think you'll find that the folks at the factory always considered themselves to work at 'Royces'. And taking one of the signs off the wall hasn't really changed that. You don't snuff something like that out quite so easily.

[NDA]

So now you're telling me I actually had a Rolls Royce?

That's disgusting.

I can see now how we've all been conned.

So if I buy my wife a VW am I actually buying her a Bentley or a Rolls?

We have a right to know.

[Balmoral Green]

I have a Rolls Royce Bentley advert at home, from a magazine, that makes my point entirely, I will post it up later, if you will indulge me a little more.

We really should have a pint sometime too

[Vixpy1]

I should spend more time in this forum, its fun

[Balmoral Green]

Ayup, he's back again...

Balmoral Green said:

NDA said:

Other Bentleys in the range are...

...not Bentleys either, they are Rolls Royces, just like my old Turbo R.

As I said...

NDA said:

So now you're telling me I actually had a Rolls Royce?

Well, in many ways, yes, you did. The essence of the car is Crewe. If someone were to say that the Continental GT 'wasn't a Rolls Royce' instead of 'wasn't a Bentley', I guess your rebuttal and insistence that it was, would have to be identical, wouldn't it? I would certainly hope, and expect it to be, as the meaning of anyone saying such a thing would essentially be the same.

Anyone lost the will to live yet?

Edited by Balmoral Green on Friday 23 May 17:18

[NDA]

You'd better get typing. This one's going to keep you busy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SC06_Three_Mode...

[Balmoral Green]

Two modern Audis and an ancient Rolls Royce?

That Spur looks stunning in white

This link is better though...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentley_%28automobile...

It has a pretty accurate synopsis, the VAG takeover and platform sharing is fairly explained, and not airbrushed out (so you may not like that bit), but I thought it was all fair enough, it matches where i'm coming from anyway, which is basically just trying to get the VAG deniers to at least see where some of the engineering DNA has come from, instead of sticking their fingers in their ears and going "La la la, i'm not listening".

Edited by Balmoral Green on Friday 23 May 18:26

[cardigankid]

Noone has even attempted to deny anything you say. I have a T2, I love it and though it says Rolls-Royce on the camshaft covers and even on the speedometer I am in no doubt that it is a Bentley, because that is what Bentleys were in that era. Is a Bentley a rebadged Rolls, or you could argue, was the Rolls actually a rebadged Bentley? Who really cares?!

When it comes down to it if the car is manufactured by Bentley Motors Limited or a successor company or under licence, whether the Germans sell to Indians or South Polynesians or even the Martians, its still a Bentley, for better or worse, for God's sake. The German input into Bentley, as it happens, has been nothing but positive. They have treated the heritage of Bentley with respect and consideration, and that, in the end is all you can do with heritage, and then they have set out to build the best cars they can for the price and they have been more successful than Bentley in its various manifestations has ever been. The whole argument is specious and that's all I have been trying to say from the start.

Stop before I have an embolism. What gets on my tits is in these discussions there is always someone who imagines that it is clever or original to say 'Its really a VW' or 'Its really a Mondeo' or 'Its really a Jaguar'. Its a car and it should be judged on its merits. By all means lets have an informed discussion about the what the DNA is or where it comes from. But if its big and fast and comfortable and it is legally entitled to have a Bentley badge on it, then, boys,ITS A BENTLEY.

[NDA]

cardigankid said:

When it comes down to it if the car is manufactured by Bentley Motors Limited or a successor company or under licence, whether the Germans sell to Indians or South Polynesians or even the Martians, its still a Bentley, for better or worse, for God's sake............

........it is legally entitled to have a Bentley badge on it, then, boys,ITS A BENTLEY.

Which is my point exactly.

[Balmoral Green]

NDA said:

cardigankid said:

When it comes down to it if the car is manufactured by Bentley Motors Limited or a successor company or under licence, whether the Germans sell to Indians or South Polynesians or even the Martians, its still a Bentley, for better or worse, for God's sake............

........it is legally entitled to have a Bentley badge on it, then, boys,ITS A BENTLEY.

Which is my point exactly.

Hmmm, so for you, all it boils down to, is if it says so on the rump, or the engine cover, then that is what it is?

OK, I will concede the point, but I thought we were talking about the actual car, rather than the badges or the ownership?

All I have been saying, all along, is that if an Arnage driver is quite happy with the suggestion that his Bentley branded car is all 'Royce' bar the branding (like your T2 cardigan), how come so many Conti drivers will not concede that theirs isn't, it's on a shared platform, and some (or most?) of it is VAG. That is exactly what sparked this debate when Vixpy1 came into it and I too joined in the squabble, and it became a 'yes it is', 'no it isn't' pantomime poo flinging fest.

Having said that, I only actually know four Conti owners, and they feel exactly the same as I do, so we have the same debate, but in agreement, not disagreement, and they are as bemused as I am by the VAG deniers who insist it's all Bentley. But then, the four that I know are all club people, RREC as well as BDC, and they refer to all of the cars as Royces, so when a Bentley branded car is not a Royce, like their own Contis, they don't have any difficulty accepting it. One of them even put VW badges on his Conti at the 2005 Club rally & concours

So, if you want to say that "it's all Bentley" then fine, i'll accept that and I won't disagree with you anymore, as long as you accept that I can say "Yes, except for the bits that aren't".

Deal?



And when they introduce the Bentley Continental Q7, or Bentley Touareg Flying Spur, 4x4 SUV with a rather familiar twin turbo V10TDi diesel engine, drive train and chassis taken from another VAG car, we can do this all over again, cant we?

Edited by Balmoral Green on Sunday 25th May 16:43

[NDA]

Of course there are VW bits on it, there were Jag bits on my Vanquish, Audi bits on my Murcielago. My Ford GT has Aston brake calipers and a Vanquish steering rack along with various Ford parts from lesser models.

Still a Bentley, Aston, Lambo and GT though.

[Balmoral Green]

NDA said:

Of course there are VW bits on it,

Neil, please mate, come on! it's not like it's a bit of switchgear and some brake calipers as on the other cars mentioned, it's practically the whole bloody car! bar the classic Bentley interior and the body panels, and they were modelled by DVB initially for another car within the group, before he moved to Bentley.

Still, fair do's, we're making progress.

Edited by Balmoral Green on Sunday 25th May 19:27

[markmullen]

NDA said:

Of course there are VW bits on it

I've had a play with both Conti GTs and Flying Spurs and whilst undoubtedly nice cars they are at the end of the day posh VWs, not in my mind proper Bentleys, an older Turbo R like BG's has a more special feel to it than the newer cars.

[cardigankid]

That's as may be, and in my opinion my T2 is a more enjoyable car to drive than the early red label Arnage I drove recently.

However, the day VW/Audi produce an upmarket RS5 with a Bentley badge on the front, or 'Bentley ' means you get your Audi with leather upholstery and parking sensors, is the day I will get cynical about this. I was brought up in the BL era when they knew a bit about badge engineering, and I think you are being a bit, well, sniffy. VW haven't started by old BL standards.

Anyway, let peace and calm return to the RRB forum!

Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 27th May 13:51

[Cobalt Blue]

markmullen said:

NDA said:

Of course there are VW bits on it

I've had a play with both Conti GTs and Flying Spurs and whilst undoubtedly nice cars they are at the end of the day posh VWs, not in my mind proper Bentleys, an older Turbo R like BG's has a more special feel to it than the newer cars.

That's what it comes down to in the final analysis. I have a Mulsanne S which appears to have been assembled by the seven dwarves in places (e.g rusty self-tapping screws, complete with plastic caps to protect the carpet) holding the hydraulic lines. All very 1950's construction methods.

But - and herein lies the crux of the matter - the (RR) Bentleys have a big, lazy V8 that waffles around in a manner that US boat anchors almost, but can't quite, manage to emulate. I have a picture of a Turbo R dash, showing 145 mph, and 3700 rpm!

The VAG/Bentley W12 produces peak power at a very un-Bentley-like 6K+ rpm, and this with big-end bearings half an inch (13mm) wide!

I have never been inside a Conti GT, and am unlikely to have that pleasure in the forseeable future. My Mulsanne is a special car to me - not because it is fast, handles well or is particularly quiet - it is just a Bentley, something that I am at a loss to explain.

After winning the lottery (several times over) I would purchase a new Brooklands (surely one of the most beautiful cars ever made)for the sheer feel of the thing, plus a Conti GT (or Spur) for blasting across continents at warp speed. The Conti, I imagine, is a (reliable) alternative to just about any other "Grand Tourer" on the market today, but it will never be quite the same sensation to drive as a (RR) Bentley.

But if you're giving one away...

[cardigankid]

I think you are right. For exactly that reason a friend recently took delivery of a new Arnage T, on the reasoning that if you are buying a car, you have to buy the best. Hard to disagree with him.

[mrobin33]

You have to differentiate brand from engineering. Up till the past few years Bentley and RR always (at least since the 1930's) shared engineering and I think everyone that bought a Bentley knew they were buying the Bentley version with, depending upon the era, a variation of the engineering. In the 90's Bentley became more distinct in its performance, and began to brand more distinctly also. As a result the sales of the Bentleys went up and the value of the brand overtook RR as well.

Now Bentley was bought by VW to er.... strenghten its portfolio and yes - make money. It had to take a risk with diluting the Bentley brand by badging existing VW engineering. It would have been really stupid not to, and trying to separately engineer luxury sports saloons and GT's without raiding the corporate larder would have been commercially silly and risky in a different way - they would have been less universally liked and sold fewer.

So for me you have to decide whether you like seeing Bentley around or not. I think I do, though I am disappointed that the Conti engineering is based essentially on a FWD/AWD architecture, the engine is too high and far forward, and the inside while nicely crafted, is a leeetle bit blingy for me. I also think they are perilously close to diluting too far, and selling too many. Current Bentleys will depreciate and unlike older ones, I think there are too many of them around for healthy collecting to pick up as they get older. But again, VW are here to make money and sell many - though I think their margins will fall if they go far above the 10000 a year mark.

I have an Arnage which I love. I have driven a Conti GT for a two week trip to Italy and back, and recently borrowed a GT Speed for four days. They are brilliant cars and the Bentley engineers have taken the VW bits and made it feel like it should - massive torque, and solid and heavy feel, and a healthy growl as well as of course the delightful interior. BUT... sacrilege I know, I buy Corvettes instead for my sporty thrills as they are great fun for different reasons and get this - really are true to their heritage. You can trace the evolution of the Corvette in every part and design feature from the first one to the last. I like that. Bentley have lost it. That matters to me; but it does not sell cars!

[5 wh]

Ive recently been lucky enough to have the use of a Continental GT.Ive also owned various RR and Bentley of yesteryear and Im a lifelong fan of both brands.The Continental GT is a superbly engineered car,the performance is excellent and the interior is a lovely place to be HOWEVER to my mind it does not have the same charm as the older models,or indeed the Arnage.You dont have the sense of occasion that you get from the other models,or indeed the new RR Phantom.That car has captured the essense of what RR and Bentley is all about more sucessfully and evolved it,albeit at a much higher purchase price than the Conti/Flying Spur.(All in my opinion of course)

[Bluebottle911]

I have only just read this thread - what a fascinating combination of sound logic, nostalgia, muddled thinking and sheer unadulterated prejudice! Only in England!

Times change and with them so also do business practices, in the motor industry as in any other. If companies were run the way Bentley and Royce ran theirs, they would not survive. Bentley lasted barely a decade and he had long since lost control of the way it was run anyway (does that make late vintage Bentleys "Barnatos", BG?). And Royce's business went through the hands of the receivers 40 years later (and would not have outlasted Bentley were it not for the influence of Claude Johnson, Ernest Hives and others).

Of course a GT doesn't have the charm of an Arnage, or its predecessors - it only costs two thirds of the price (and come to that, Arnage cockpits have always been stocked with lots of tacky BMW bits, unlike the bespoke fittings of a Turbo R, so maybe they're not "proper Bentleys", or even proper Rolls-Royces), but dynamically it is, of course, far superior. And if Bentley didn't sell 10 GTs to overpaid footballers for every Arnage and if Bentley wasn't owned by VW and if GTs did not use a lot of already paid for VW R&D, there would be no Arnages; no Bentleys at all.

And surely Bentleys made after 1980 aren't Rolls-Royces, BG, they're Vickers - haven't you found the machine gun contols? Oh, no that's in an Aston DB5 alongside the ejector seat button, or would that be a tractor? Don't forget that David Brown, like Ferruccio Lamborghini, funded his car business on the back of a profitable tractor business. So it clearly follows that Astons and Lamborghinis are tractors and Bentleys are tanks (well, they do handle a bit like them). Which, of course, completes the VW connection: Ferdinand Porsche, who designed the first VW, also designed the Tiger tank. And maybe my 911 is a Bentley?

I think I'll stop before this gets silly.

[stain]

It does make me laugh at people who talk so convincingly about cars they have never sat in or driven. I have a Turbo RL and a Flying Spur. I agree that the new car has less charm than the old one, but that is true of many cars these days. I prefer my W124 E Class estate to any modern Merc for the way it makes you feel. The important bit for me is that you can't play spot the switchgear in the Spur. It is only found in the Conti's. If linking up with VW gives us a fast, safe, secure and reliable way to travel then that can only be a good thing. It is sprinkled with enough 'Bentley dust' for me. I had a new Skoda 2 years ago and that car also maintained enough of its' brand values to remain what it is.

As for public perception - I perform four times as many weddings in the Spur than in an Arnage. (Not all of that is due to the lack of space in an Arnage) To most people, a Bentley is a Bentley is a Bentley.