MINI Timing Chain Tensioner - Engine Siezure
Discussion
jogon said:
Yep the three different versions they have had to remake of the cam tensioner has nothing to do with your engine rattle just like the Thermostat housing that mysteriously fails on pretty much every r56 cooper s at around 50k miles resulting in loss of coolant and don't even mention the high pressure fuel pump that is in top top shape too..
Thermostat housing at 55k for me. What's the signs for fuel pump failure? Is it just lack of life. And another one - 58 plate JCW just didn't start after running fine the day before. No compression - waiting for full diagnosis from Mini but RAC said the chain jumps and puts the cams out of timing. The cams are still turning (viewed through the oil filler cap) - am hoping that engine is salvageable with new chain and tensioner - i.e. the valves and pistons haven't collided! It stills turns over on the starter with no obvious mechanical noises apart from wheezing as it looses compression at the wrong point - its very obvious when you know what sound you are looking for.
Interesting the car also has massive oil usage - which Mini said was normal for this engine - about 1 litre per 600 miles. It's almost but not quite a tank of petrol and litre of oil (which at £15/litre for Castrol Edge is no small amount). What causes the oil usage - valve guides? piston rings? The car still (or did) go like stink up to its demise.
Should add its only done 28k miles!!
Interesting the car also has massive oil usage - which Mini said was normal for this engine - about 1 litre per 600 miles. It's almost but not quite a tank of petrol and litre of oil (which at £15/litre for Castrol Edge is no small amount). What causes the oil usage - valve guides? piston rings? The car still (or did) go like stink up to its demise.
Should add its only done 28k miles!!
NCKGRY said:
Interesting the car also has massive oil usage - which Mini said was normal for this engine - about 1 litre per 600 miles.
That does seem very excessive.I've got the later N18 184BHP engine in our Cooper S. It uses next to no oil.
Just done an interim oil change, 8k since the last one and I'd topped it up by about 1/3 litre in between.
Maracus said:
NCKGRY said:
Interesting the car also has massive oil usage - which Mini said was normal for this engine - about 1 litre per 600 miles.
That does seem very excessive.I've got the later N18 184BHP engine in our Cooper S. It uses next to no oil.
Just done an interim oil change, 8k since the last one and I'd topped it up by about 1/3 litre in between.
Okay some advice please.
Mini franchised dealer has exhausted the first hour of labour and want more diagnosis budget approved. I have real issues with their findings as I believe they are inconsistent. The car ran absolutely fine the night before the morning it failed to start - RAC diagnosis was timing chain jumped a couple of teeth on the camshaft on cranking the starter motor leading to mistiming and loss of compression (obvious sound from cranking the engine). So franchised dealer report is:
1. They have checked the camshaft timing and it was slightly out but they have adjusted (I thought adjusting cam timing was impossible without a strip down and certainly not possible in 1 hour)
2. They have examined the timing chain and guides and can find no problem
3. However there is loss of compression ("4 instead of 9 which it should be") - the guy didn't know what these numbers were but I guess they are compression ratios.
4. The electronic fault log is clear of anything that might indicate the problem
Now I have rebuilt classic car engines and asked him to explain how an engine that ran fine 12 hours previously (full power, no smoke) can suddenly loose compression across all 4 cylinders, such that it is unable to start, if the cam timing is correct. He couldn't answer! The car has done 28k miles.
Any thoughts? I admit I am not familiar with the N14 engine but the above doesn't stack up from the knowledge I have.
I have reluctantly approved another hour of labour for £110 to carry out a 'leak test' but think I am being taken for a ride - but I just know I could be funding into a written off car here.
Many thanks for guidance
Mini franchised dealer has exhausted the first hour of labour and want more diagnosis budget approved. I have real issues with their findings as I believe they are inconsistent. The car ran absolutely fine the night before the morning it failed to start - RAC diagnosis was timing chain jumped a couple of teeth on the camshaft on cranking the starter motor leading to mistiming and loss of compression (obvious sound from cranking the engine). So franchised dealer report is:
1. They have checked the camshaft timing and it was slightly out but they have adjusted (I thought adjusting cam timing was impossible without a strip down and certainly not possible in 1 hour)
2. They have examined the timing chain and guides and can find no problem
3. However there is loss of compression ("4 instead of 9 which it should be") - the guy didn't know what these numbers were but I guess they are compression ratios.
4. The electronic fault log is clear of anything that might indicate the problem
Now I have rebuilt classic car engines and asked him to explain how an engine that ran fine 12 hours previously (full power, no smoke) can suddenly loose compression across all 4 cylinders, such that it is unable to start, if the cam timing is correct. He couldn't answer! The car has done 28k miles.
Any thoughts? I admit I am not familiar with the N14 engine but the above doesn't stack up from the knowledge I have.
I have reluctantly approved another hour of labour for £110 to carry out a 'leak test' but think I am being taken for a ride - but I just know I could be funding into a written off car here.
Many thanks for guidance
Edited by NCKGRY on Tuesday 9th February 14:28
Edited by NCKGRY on Tuesday 9th February 14:30
Edited by NCKGRY on Tuesday 9th February 14:37
Edited by NCKGRY on Tuesday 9th February 14:42
Edited by NCKGRY on Tuesday 9th February 14:46
Turned out it was inlet valve timing - 8 degrees out which by my maths is one tooth on the camshaft sprocket. Compression test and leak test were within "10% of spec" after this had been adjusted and a bit of oil put down the bores which had been 'degreased' by petrol from lots of turning over without starting - which in itself is alarming as I now know where the oil is going! But the car isn't smoky and shows no degradation in performance so the engine appears to be able to cope with this - after being run they rechecked the compression and got the same result.
I guess 8 degrees of camshaft error equates to 16 degrees of crankshaft rotation so the valves were probably open for a considerable part of the compression stroke - anybody know how long it is on a turbo engine (i.e. from inlet valve closing to TDC and ignition?) - plus as you say some coking of the valves.
I doubt coking is the main issue as the engine started as normal when it was driven 12 hours earlier - coking would see a gradual drop in starting and driven performance - not overnight!
The car is having new chain fitted (it a cassette - the chain comes complete with new guides and the lower sprocket). BMW refused to contribute due to the age of the car despite the fact it has only done 28k miles. I pointed out they proposed a settlement with US N14 engine owners for the repair that was preliminarily agreed with the US court on 6th January - http://www.law360.com/articles/743468/judge-blesse... . No such luck for their customers outside the US! Thanks BMW!
I guess I was lucky the chain only jumped and didn't snap - so the engine suffered no permanent damage from valves hitting pistons. It is still a very costly repair for a design fault!
I think I will be ignoring BMW service schedules going forward and getting oil and filter changes much more often. I also suspect the oil spec is too light - probably chosen to get mpg stats - and the engine may benefit from a more viscous alternative. Any engine builders on here with any views on this?
I guess 8 degrees of camshaft error equates to 16 degrees of crankshaft rotation so the valves were probably open for a considerable part of the compression stroke - anybody know how long it is on a turbo engine (i.e. from inlet valve closing to TDC and ignition?) - plus as you say some coking of the valves.
I doubt coking is the main issue as the engine started as normal when it was driven 12 hours earlier - coking would see a gradual drop in starting and driven performance - not overnight!
The car is having new chain fitted (it a cassette - the chain comes complete with new guides and the lower sprocket). BMW refused to contribute due to the age of the car despite the fact it has only done 28k miles. I pointed out they proposed a settlement with US N14 engine owners for the repair that was preliminarily agreed with the US court on 6th January - http://www.law360.com/articles/743468/judge-blesse... . No such luck for their customers outside the US! Thanks BMW!
I guess I was lucky the chain only jumped and didn't snap - so the engine suffered no permanent damage from valves hitting pistons. It is still a very costly repair for a design fault!
I think I will be ignoring BMW service schedules going forward and getting oil and filter changes much more often. I also suspect the oil spec is too light - probably chosen to get mpg stats - and the engine may benefit from a more viscous alternative. Any engine builders on here with any views on this?
Edited by NCKGRY on Thursday 11th February 13:20
Actually non starting due to coking up can manifest its self overnight, Vauxhall 16v engines fitted to the corsa and tigra used to suffer this from too tight valve guides ,would run fine then one morning just turned over fast and wouldn't start, we did a s
t load of repairs under warranty on those.
As you've found out bmw will look after some parts of the world but not here in the UK where the cars and engines are built,
t load of repairs under warranty on those.As you've found out bmw will look after some parts of the world but not here in the UK where the cars and engines are built,
Son's Mini Cooper R56 2010 N16 engine has a problem with loud knocking noise from engine.
Arrived home Sunday night from a long run and engine sounded like a diesel! Yesterday I just moved it off and on the drive and the knocking noise subsided after 20-30 seconds at idle. Today phoned Sytner Mini Leicester and spoke to service manager. He said there's no known issue with this model. Suggested diagnosing issue at £150 (2hrs) or less if they find it quicker.
Spoke local indy in Rugby I've used before and trust. They said sounds like timing gear issue. £530 to £900 to fix dependent on whether VANOS gears need replacing. Phoned Sytner again and the SM said IF it is the timing gear, BMW may make a contribution.
Gingerly drove to indy who test drove and confirmed timing gear and above prices.
So, do I get indy to fix it OR trailer to Sytner at £60, plus £150 diagnostics (they won't trust indy's judgement of course), then expect a higher bill, say £1400 (SM wouldn't estimate cost over phone) BUT also maybe a goodwill contribution?
In the USA BMW have LOST the Mini timing chain class action, as here: http://www.forthepeople.com/class-action-lawyers/m...
Note that each owner and member of the class action will get $4000 in ADDITION to what it costs to fix the car or loss on resale. A great result. Odd that no UK law firm seems to have taken up the mantle over here???
US action covered R56 to 2010 but my son's has the later 2010 N16 engine, as here: http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/...
Anyway, does he pay the £530 - £900 for the trusted indy to fix the car or put it into the clutches of Sytner who will doubtless charge more but MAY get some money from BMW? Lots of hassle, arguments, emails, threats, and TIME!
BUT... if the chain is designed to last the life of the engine, why should my son pay for anything because it's about to fail?
Arrived home Sunday night from a long run and engine sounded like a diesel! Yesterday I just moved it off and on the drive and the knocking noise subsided after 20-30 seconds at idle. Today phoned Sytner Mini Leicester and spoke to service manager. He said there's no known issue with this model. Suggested diagnosing issue at £150 (2hrs) or less if they find it quicker.
Spoke local indy in Rugby I've used before and trust. They said sounds like timing gear issue. £530 to £900 to fix dependent on whether VANOS gears need replacing. Phoned Sytner again and the SM said IF it is the timing gear, BMW may make a contribution.
Gingerly drove to indy who test drove and confirmed timing gear and above prices.
So, do I get indy to fix it OR trailer to Sytner at £60, plus £150 diagnostics (they won't trust indy's judgement of course), then expect a higher bill, say £1400 (SM wouldn't estimate cost over phone) BUT also maybe a goodwill contribution?
In the USA BMW have LOST the Mini timing chain class action, as here: http://www.forthepeople.com/class-action-lawyers/m...
Note that each owner and member of the class action will get $4000 in ADDITION to what it costs to fix the car or loss on resale. A great result. Odd that no UK law firm seems to have taken up the mantle over here???
US action covered R56 to 2010 but my son's has the later 2010 N16 engine, as here: http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/...
Anyway, does he pay the £530 - £900 for the trusted indy to fix the car or put it into the clutches of Sytner who will doubtless charge more but MAY get some money from BMW? Lots of hassle, arguments, emails, threats, and TIME!
BUT... if the chain is designed to last the life of the engine, why should my son pay for anything because it's about to fail?
Hi everyone. I've got a 2013 Mini Countryman with 100k miles but regularly serviced - the timing chain has gone. Just waiting to hear if it needs a new engine. Does anyone think I could take it further? It's a driving school so now I'm faced with a car I owe 9k on and can't use and a £35 a day hire car!!!
Nicola1969 said:
Hi everyone. I've got a 2013 Mini Countryman with 100k miles but regularly serviced - the timing chain has gone. Just waiting to hear if it needs a new engine. Does anyone think I could take it further? It's a driving school so now I'm faced with a car I owe 9k on and can't use and a £35 a day hire car!!!
If it has a Full MINI Service History you could well get some contribution, especially with it only being 3 years old.Is it a Cooper S 184BHP/N18 - the later engine?
I have just been informed by BMW that I will not receive a contribution to the cost of repair of my timing chain "death rattle" despite the fact that it was reported to my local BMW dealer when the car was still under warranty. I was told it was nothing to worry about. I am seriously considering taking legal action and should be grateful to know if anyone has tried this before and if anyone has received compensation from BMW for a repair to the timing chain. Many thanks.
Tony
Tony
Just discovered this forum as my daughter's mini one 57 plate keeps cutting out it transpires timing chain has gone. Literally spent loads on this mini (gear box had to be replaced last year £1650). Now this another £1400 quoted. It's done 45k and had two lady owners one being my daughter from new. This should never happen should it?
On looking on the web it seems this problem is not uncommon.....we're at our wits end as to what to do. BMW aren't interested in helping us we've been told by them it's "our bad luck".
On looking on the web it seems this problem is not uncommon.....we're at our wits end as to what to do. BMW aren't interested in helping us we've been told by them it's "our bad luck".
Unhappy mini said:
This should never happen should it?
.
No it shouldn't..
I (perhaps foolishly) expect a chain to lay the life of the vehicle. Otherwise it should be in the service schedule.
However, how do you define vehicle life? Is ten years all BMW's are expected to last?!
I'd palm it off via trade in or WBAC and buy something else (non mini!)
Unhappy mini said:
Just discovered this forum as my daughter's mini one 57 plate keeps cutting out it transpires timing chain has gone. Literally spent loads on this mini (gear box had to be replaced last year £1650). Now this another £1400 quoted. It's done 45k and had two lady owners one being my daughter from new. This should never happen should it?
On looking on the web it seems this problem is not uncommon.....we're at our wits end as to what to do. BMW aren't interested in helping us we've been told by them it's "our bad luck".
Where in the country are u? I maybe able to help if ur not too farOn looking on the web it seems this problem is not uncommon.....we're at our wits end as to what to do. BMW aren't interested in helping us we've been told by them it's "our bad luck".
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