The Triathlon thread - Ironman, 70.3, Olympic, Sprint

[Dimski]

First event of the year yesterday, the Chilly Duathlon. Sprint Distance at Castle Combe. My first go round the circuit, my BEC failed their noise test a few years ago.

Haven't done much for a couple of weeks due to flu/cold, managed a few turbo sessions in the house but nothing in the cold. My last run 3 weeks ago was nearly a minute slower per mile than the same one 2 weeks prior to that, which I put down to the cold beginning to kick in. That and a hill/sprint session earlier in the week making it's presence felt!

Still, pushed the run as hard as I could, made up some places on the bike then lost them again on the second run.

Crossed the line in 1:00:24. Frustratingly close to an hour, but not quite! Still, first one out of the way. Now, need to start weight loss & hill work; I've committed to Alpe D'Huez Tri again. (Probably Wales too... )

[Scabutz]

Hows everyone's training going? I have 100 days now till IM Lanza. Training going ok, although I have a cold now. Struggling to lose weight though. For no other reason than I like eating chips and cake.

Really need to lose a few kilos to make those hills easier. Long rides in this weather is becoming depressing though.

[dangerousB]

Scabutz said:

Hows everyone's training going? I have 100 days now till IM Lanza. Training going ok, although I have a cold now. Struggling to lose weight though. For no other reason than I like eating chips and cake.

Really need to lose a few kilos to make those hills easier. Long rides in this weather is becoming depressing though.

Mine's going well - had a reasonable start to the year, still got a niggling shoulder injury, so have laid off the swimming until now, but have had a load more sessions (and all good quality) during January and February than normal.

Had a week away skiing which has interrupted things (albeit great cross training) and am now just getting over a stinking cold as well, but should be back on it next week - fortunately I've got a bit longer run-in than you (5½ months now), but don't want to get too comfortable about that!!

[Rich_W]

I feel like I'm missing too many sessions! (I'm at Roth in July. 17 weeks!)


Couldn't run last week due to Snow. Only swam once this week as really wasn't feeling the desire to go and drive to the pool in the snow! Work Saturday morning, so ANOTHER missed swim. Was away with work week before last so another missed swim and a run!

TT bike needed re-cabling, so that came off the road and I trained on the Road bike. Which I hate doing as it's not the same position and my next run will always feel worse!

This coming week. Again away with work a few days and there's no pool nearby apparently.

And of course I came into this year unable to run at all! (Plantar Fasciitis!) So I feel like I'm behind where I want to be in terms of "base" run fitness.


Plus side is that since September or so, I've managed to drop the 7 and a bit KG I wanted to shift. So I guess I must be doing some training!

[craig r]

Starting my 'proper' 8 week plan for my pool based sprint tri today. I've been tickling along with a few runs / rides, a bit of swimming and a couple of brick sessions but nothing really targeted. As a stroke of luck, on a scheduled 1 hour run training day I'm doing the Spring Wolf Run and as that will take about an hour (and is mostly running) I will count that.

I've gone and booked a swim coach session on Thursday with a guy recommended on here so that will hopefully help as well.

[johnwilliams77]

Roughly how many hrs a week are you guys training for this?

[Rich_W]

craig r said:

As a stroke of luck, on a scheduled 1 hour run training day I'm doing the Spring Wolf Run and as that will take about an hour (and is mostly running) I will count that.

Always a good idea to mix it up if you can get in another event. Few years back a 100Mile sportive was about 8 weeks before my "A" Race. So the day before I dropped the run session I was planning (kept the morning swim) and I did that instead of the 3 hour ride I was supposed to. Booked a day off work the next day to recover better so I could still do my Monday Run though.

Racing (or just structured rides like Sportives) break up the monotony of pounding around the same roads/routes. Also give you a chance to practice nutrition strategy

johnwilliams77 said:

Roughly how many hrs a week are you guys training for this?

Personally for IM distance. I will be doing approx 9-10 hours at the start of the (16wk) plan and probably maxing out at 16ish hours per week before I taper down for the last week/10 days

[dangerousB]

johnwilliams77 said:

Roughly how many hrs a week are you guys training for this?

Generally fewer than I'd like!

My last race (IM Barcelona) I averaged 3.7hrs a week over 18 weeks, but Barcelona isn't a particularly arduous course and I was in reasonable nick at week 1.

My next race is a proper ball-breaker of a course and I'm coming back from injury, so I won't be taking those sorts of liberties - currently ticking along at 7 - 10hrs/week - peak weeks in a few months will be IRO double that.

That's the plan anyway - fingers crossed, life/work/illness/injury won't be taking too many bites out of my itinerary (if any hopefully!).

[sammyboy]

Training is going really well at the moment. I’ve spent the last 2 months in a big swim block and have managed to knock off around 10 seconds off my 100m PB. My Ironman bike last year was destroyed because of my swim so this year I am not going to let that happen. I’m now going into a cycle block and can’t wait to get out on the road with the sun on my face, I’ve had a few 3 hour indoor turbo sessions recently which have been horrific!

I went for another bike fit for my TT just before January at Freespeed and had a really good chat with Richard who fits a lot of the UK based pro's, I think his encouragement and words of wisdom has given me the kick up the a** I needed to get back into it after last year’s disappointment at wales.

I’m currently doing 9-10 hours but that will go up to about 12-14 now the weather is getting nicer.

[esuuv]

https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/news/lamborghini...

Little bit of Triathlon content from Geneva !!

[craig r]

Scabutz said:

I agree, definitely get a coach and assessment done. Only 1-2 sessions will give you a big improvements. At 10min/400m I would suggest your problems are far worse than a cross-over and scissor kick. Although a scissor kick can create a huge amount of drag. I would guess you have very sinky legs. This is often caused by too high a head position.

If you can't find a coach then mine does remote analysis where you get someone to film you and upload it and he will add some annotations to the film and comments and give you drills to correct.

My 400m time is worse than I thought - 11:39!

Had my coaching session today (Greenlight PT), among the many problems sinky legs were a big problem. I have a nice program focusing on leg kick (I have bent knees apparently), head position (looking too far forward) and recovery (high-ish elbow, but too wide a swing) to be working on for the next 6-8 weeks but I felt like I was swimming more efficiently at the end of the session than I was at the start even though I was knackered!

On the plus side my pull is ok and my timing is pretty good.

And swimming with fins is great!

[Scabutz]

craig r said:

Scabutz said:

I agree, definitely get a coach and assessment done. Only 1-2 sessions will give you a big improvements. At 10min/400m I would suggest your problems are far worse than a cross-over and scissor kick. Although a scissor kick can create a huge amount of drag. I would guess you have very sinky legs. This is often caused by too high a head position.

If you can't find a coach then mine does remote analysis where you get someone to film you and upload it and he will add some annotations to the film and comments and give you drills to correct.

My 400m time is worse than I thought - 11:39!

Had my coaching session today (Greenlight PT), among the many problems sinky legs were a big problem. I have a nice program focusing on leg kick (I have bent knees apparently), head position (looking too far forward) and recovery (high-ish elbow, but too wide a swing) to be working on for the next 6-8 weeks but I felt like I was swimming more efficiently at the end of the session than I was at the start even though I was knackered!

On the plus side my pull is ok and my timing is pretty good.

And swimming with fins is great!

Ha excellent, I was two lanes down from you yesterday. I train on Thursdays at Bletchely! I found after my first session with Adam stuff started to fall together and I just got better really quickly. Once you know what you are doing wrong and have drills to fix it it becomes easy.


My training is going good. My weight loss is not! No problem other than I can't stop eating, all in my mind and not my body. Problem at the min is the training is ramping up so much I need so much food to keep going.

Quietly stting myself that I have 11 weeks before Lanza.

[Scabutz]

johnwilliams77 said:

Roughly how many hrs a week are you guys training for this?

I'm logging 14-15 hours at the min, but I discount 5 of those as its a commute to work on a MTB so not "training".

Towards then end I will be hitting about 16 hours of solid training. That's for IM distance.

Max for HIM was about 12-13.

[johnwilliams77]

Scabutz said:

I'm logging 14-15 hours at the min, but I discount 5 of those as its a commute to work on a MTB so not "training".

Towards then end I will be hitting about 16 hours of solid training. That's for IM distance.

Max for HIM was about 12-13.

Thanks, that's interesting to hear. I am doing similar in the summer including run commute with just cycling and running. I still don't think I have the motivation to add swimming but not completely utterly against the idea, yet.

[Rich_W]

craig r said:

My 400m time is worse than I thought - 11:39!

Had my coaching session today (Greenlight PT), among the many problems sinky legs were a big problem. I have a nice program focusing on leg kick (I have bent knees apparently), head position (looking too far forward) and recovery (high-ish elbow, but too wide a swing) to be working on for the next 6-8 weeks but I felt like I was swimming more efficiently at the end of the session than I was at the start even though I was knackered!

On the plus side my pull is ok and my timing is pretty good.

And swimming with fins is great!

I thought about your post as I smashed up and down this morning (3.2Km Pyramid set if anyone's wondering )

Sinky legs are because you are a Triathlete. So Bike and Run. And that tends to make muscular legs which don't float as well. I assume that your race will be Wetsuit legal, so "fixing" sinky legs is a bit of a waste of effort IMO. Though adjusting your kick to start from the hips (and be less in terms of a 2-6 beat kick) is a good idea, since you use the legs less in the swim and have them ready for the rest of the day.

WRT to Recovery. What difference does it make where you arm goes ABOVE the water? So long as it goes in and pulls back correctly it matters little. Have you seen Harry Wiltshire's straight arm recovery? And he LED out of the water at Kona 2016 (though he did bump Frodo out the way slightly )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDsBTpygrks
Swim Smooth vid of HW swim.

On a slightly relatred note, if your coach EVER mentions Distance per stroke. Ditch them! Triathlon is generally in open water. DPS is only relevant when in a pool where the water is relatively calm. In open water as you know, it's choppy as fk! Reach out and feel the water just introduces dead spots into the stroke and in Open water it exaggerates this!

Scabutz said:

My training is going good. My weight loss is not! No problem other than I can't stop eating, all in my mind and not my body. Problem at the min is the training is ramping up so much I need so much food to keep going.

Quietly stting myself that I have 11 weeks before Lanza.

Assuming IM at Lanzarote?

Don't get hung up on weight loss! Ironman is a strength event, not (even for the pros) a Speed sport. It's also TOUGH on the body, so running at single digit fat numbers is daft. You're going to demolish thousands of calories in training, so cutting food is not the answer. If you don't eat enough and then train as hard as required. Your body will eat the muscle before the fat!

(I should point out this this post is advice I listen to, but not my original content. It seems to work for me.)

Edited by Rich_W on Saturday 10th March 13:52

[dangerousB]

Rich_W said:

Scabutz said:

My training is going good. My weight loss is not! No problem other than I can't stop eating, all in my mind and not my body. Problem at the min is the training is ramping up so much I need so much food to keep going.

Quietly stting myself that I have 11 weeks before Lanza.

Assuming IM at Lanzarote?

Don't get hung up on weight loss!

I wouldn't get hung up on weight loss, but I certainly wouldn't ignore it either - it would depend on just how much timber you're trying to lose. 1kg? Neither here nor there. 4 or 5kg? Different matter entirely - if it's that sort of amount I would give it priority. Certainly for Lanzarote anyway.

Let's put it this way - when you leave Famara on the bike, you've got a 40k drag up to Mirador del Rio. Most of it uphill. The last section is 15% or so. I wouldn't want to be carrying any more weight than I needed to up there, NO mistake.

Weight management needn't be a brutal exercise - you'd need to be pretty stupid to push yourself into gluconeogenesis. Just cut out the st from your diet - everyone knows what that is. If you feel like chips or chocolate or biscuits or cake or alcohol, just ask yourself the question "am I willing to carry this all the way up to Mirador in 100 days time", because come the day, you won't trust me! Especially if the winds howling in your face and it's 38°C. You'll feel like you're in a fan assisted oven and that's without the exertion.

Rich_W said:

so running at single digit fat numbers is daft.

Why??

[Scabutz]

dangerousB said:

Rich_W said:

Scabutz said:

My training is going good. My weight loss is not! No problem other than I can't stop eating, all in my mind and not my body. Problem at the min is the training is ramping up so much I need so much food to keep going.

Quietly stting myself that I have 11 weeks before Lanza.

Assuming IM at Lanzarote?

Don't get hung up on weight loss!

I wouldn't get hung up on weight loss, but I certainly wouldn't ignore it either - it would depend on just how much timber you're trying to lose. 1kg? Neither here nor there. 4 or 5kg? Different matter entirely - if it's that sort of amount I would give it priority. Certainly for Lanzarote anyway.

Let's put it this way - when you leave Famara on the bike, you've got a 40k drag up to Mirador del Rio. Most of it uphill. The last section is 15% or so. I wouldn't want to be carrying any more weight than I needed to up there, NO mistake.

Weight management needn't be a brutal exercise - you'd need to be pretty stupid to push yourself into gluconeogenesis. Just cut out the st from your diet - everyone knows what that is. If you feel like chips or chocolate or biscuits or cake or alcohol, just ask yourself the question "am I willing to carry this all the way up to Mirador in 100 days time", because come the day, you won't trust me! Especially if the winds howling in your face and it's 38°C. You'll feel like you're in a fan assisted oven and that's without the exertion.

Rich_W said:

so running at single digit fat numbers is daft.

Why??

Thanks. Yeah definitely more than a couple of KG needed. My main concern is keeping the power down on the climbing so need to lose some. Going to focus on the diet next 6-8 weeks. Hopefully can shift 6kg or so. Once I start focusing on it it will come of easily.

[johnwilliams77]

Scabutz said:

Thanks. Yeah definitely more than a couple of KG needed. My main concern is keeping the power down on the climbing so need to lose some. Going to focus on the diet next 6-8 weeks. Hopefully can shift 6kg or so. Once I start focusing on it it will come of easily.

Seems a dangerous thing to do: trying to drop 6kg whilst training hard. Surely you are risking not recovering properly and thus not getting the full benefits of your training / getting ill?

[Rich_W]

dangerousB said:

Rich_W said:

so running at single digit fat numbers is daft.

Why??

When you're 9 hours into an ironman, cant stomach anymore gels or bars and have resorted to taking on calories via drink. Your body will try using fat for fuel. Be nice to have that option for a while at least! I'm not saying be obese or have 25% BF. But it's a source of fuel nonetheless. All that matters in IM is getting to the finish. Everyone "breaks down" It's just the ones that break down the least that win

If you're doing ITU/OD then yeah for that 10K at the end, be light as possible. But for IM, I'd suggest working on strength and carrying the weight you have.

johnwilliams77 said:

Seems a dangerous thing to do: trying to drop 6kg whilst training hard. Surely you are risking not recovering properly and thus not getting the full benefits of your training / getting ill?

Exactly!

If you eat 2500 calories per day as normal. A mere 10K run in under an hour (so not mashing it) will burn 900 Calories. So your body not only starts to store Fat since it doesn't know what's going on and fears you aren't getting any actual food soon. But you aren't replacing the lost nutrients if you don't increase food intake which affects your body adversely when training. Cake, Biscuits, Cheese. Just eat the damn stuff!

Try cutting your daily intake in half and then do a 5 hour training ride! And then the next day doing a 3K swim set. You'll be ruined in a few days and have to take days off training to recover!


(should point out I'm not a trained nutritionist, it's just sensible!)

[dangerousB]

johnwilliams77 said:

Seems a dangerous thing to do: trying to drop 6kg whilst training hard.

Not at all - depends how you do it and over what period of time.

Rich_W said:

When you're 9 hours into an ironman, cant stomach anymore gels or bars and have resorted to taking on calories via drink. Your body will try using fat for fuel. Be nice to have that option for a while at least! I'm not saying be obese or have 25% BF. But it's a source of fuel nonetheless.

I genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to say, but I do have a couple of questions.

a) How do you think your body’s been fuelling your efforts prior to this arbitrary 9hr point where you have GI issues? Any ideas?
b) What does “Be nice to have that option for a while at least” mean? You appear to be implying that someone who has a single digit body fat percentage doesn’t have much fat to metabolise?
c) On that subject and at a rough guess, tell me how many calories of fat do you think an average someone with a single digit body fat percentage has available to them for fuelling effort? Let’s arbitrarily say 75kg @ 8% BF.

Rich_W said:

Try cutting your daily intake in half and then do a 5 hour training ride

Why? Where did I suggest the OP do this?!!! I simply said “cut out the st from your diet”.

If it’s a choice between the OP undertaking a crash diet (the one that you’re inexplicably referring to) whilst training or maintaining his current body composition, the answer’s obvious, but there is another way.

It’s very easy to underestimate the calorific value of what’s going in. In a similar vein it’s easy to overestimate what’s going out - as you’ve demonstrated with your 1hr 10k run - 900kCal?? How frikkin’ heavy is your subject?!!!

If the OP listens to his body pre- and post-training, asks himself “do I really need this” every time he reaches for something he knows is a bit indulgent/a weakness (unlike you, I think macros are important), given he’s 2½ months out, cumulatively it could make a big difference come race day . . . to his body composition, how he feels physically, how he looks, his mental attitude and ultimately his performance.

I do realise this common sense approach would mean it’d be harder for you to use your ridiculous hyperbole, but there you go - an additional, positive, unintended consequence. Everyone wins

Rich_W said:

should point out I'm not a trained nutritionist

You really didn’t need to!