The Triathlon thread - Ironman, 70.3, Olympic, Sprint
Discussion
Rich_W said:
craig r said:
My 400m time is worse than I thought - 11:39!
Had my coaching session today (Greenlight PT), among the many problems sinky legs were a big problem. I have a nice program focusing on leg kick (I have bent knees apparently), head position (looking too far forward) and recovery (high-ish elbow, but too wide a swing) to be working on for the next 6-8 weeks but I felt like I was swimming more efficiently at the end of the session than I was at the start even though I was knackered!
On the plus side my pull is ok and my timing is pretty good.
And swimming with fins is great!
I thought about your post as I smashed up and down this morning (3.2Km Pyramid set if anyone's wondering Had my coaching session today (Greenlight PT), among the many problems sinky legs were a big problem. I have a nice program focusing on leg kick (I have bent knees apparently), head position (looking too far forward) and recovery (high-ish elbow, but too wide a swing) to be working on for the next 6-8 weeks but I felt like I was swimming more efficiently at the end of the session than I was at the start even though I was knackered!
On the plus side my pull is ok and my timing is pretty good.
And swimming with fins is great!
)Sinky legs are because you are a Triathlete. So Bike and Run. And that tends to make muscular legs which don't float as well. I assume that your race will be Wetsuit legal, so "fixing" sinky legs is a bit of a waste of effort IMO. Though adjusting your kick to start from the hips (and be less in terms of a 2-6 beat kick) is a good idea, since you use the legs less in the swim and have them ready for the rest of the day.
WRT to Recovery. What difference does it make where you arm goes ABOVE the water? So long as it goes in and pulls back correctly it matters little. Have you seen Harry Wiltshire's straight arm recovery? And he LED out of the water at Kona 2016 (though he did bump Frodo out the way slightly
)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDsBTpygrks
Swim Smooth vid of HW swim.
On a slightly relatred note, if your coach EVER mentions Distance per stroke. Ditch them! Triathlon is generally in open water. DPS is only relevant when in a pool where the water is relatively calm. In open water as you know, it's choppy as f
k! Reach out and feel the water just introduces dead spots into the stroke and in Open water it exaggerates this! 
Edited by Rich_W on Saturday 10th March 13:52
My first race this year is a pool based sprint tri, 2nd one will be wetsuit legal OW sprint (at Boxend hopefully!) I think he was just trying to give me drills to be a bit more efficient, after 400m I'm usually knackered and the couple sessions I've done since following the tips given to me I feel a lot more in control of my breathing and my HR is lower, and because I'm trying to kick from my hips more my legs feel less tired.
Good point about what your arm does out of the water, I guess it's whatever you feel comfortable with. HW recovery looks knackering and quite hard on the shoulders - but I would be very happy with 2.20 for 200m!
dangerousB said:
If the OP listens to his body pre- and post-training, asks himself “do I really need this” every time he reaches for something he knows is a bit indulgent/a weakness (unlike you, I think macros are important), given he’s 2½ months out, cumulatively it could make a big difference come race day . . . to his body composition, how he feels physically, how he looks, his mental attitude and ultimately his performance.
Thank you. Yep cutting the crap already. My core diet is pretty healthy, its the "treats" which I take to extreme which are holding me back, e.g. 4 donuts in one sitting etc!I have already quit the booze again (I do huge periods of not drinking). Playing with BBS you can see the impact weight has on the bike alone. Because if I am fatter, it will take me longer, in which case I have to work at a lower IF which makes me slower again. Losing 6 kg drops my time by about 30 mins, and allows me to up my power a bit to shave another 15 mins.
Plus the effect on the run is about 20/secs per mile.
I did a "big day" training day yesterday and on a big hill I slowed to 5km/h to keep my power at target. That has a massive effect to my overall average speed.
Fitness wise I feel great, its the weight holding me back.
dangerousB said:
I genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to say,
Calories are calories, doesn't matter where they are in your system your body will use them. And in an IM, you WILL need them. I was surprised to learn that fat has twice as many calories as Carbs or Protein.dangerousB said:
Where did I suggest the OP do this?!!! I simply said “cut out the st from your diet”.
If it’s a choice between the OP undertaking a crash diet (the one that you’re inexplicably referring to) whilst training or maintaining his current body composition, the answer’s obvious, but there is another way.
He wants to drop 6kg! 2 and a half months from his race. You aren't suggesting that's wise Shirley? To me it's a bit too close to "crash diet" (unless he weights 100kgs, but I'll assume not)t from your diet”. If it’s a choice between the OP undertaking a crash diet (the one that you’re inexplicably referring to) whilst training or maintaining his current body composition, the answer’s obvious, but there is another way.
dangerousB said:
It’s very easy to underestimate the calorific value of what’s going in. In a similar vein it’s easy to overestimate what’s going out - as you’ve demonstrated with your 1hr 10k run - 900kCal?? How frikkin’ heavy is your subject?!!!
Rough calcs from. I don't count calories as a rule. I reckon I've got a good handle on my level required for a certain amount of training. And vary it slightly according to what I have planned.https://www.runnersworld.com/tools/calories-burned...
Scabutz said:
Playing with BBS you can see the impact weight has on the bike alone. Because if I am fatter, it will take me longer, in which case I have to work at a lower IF which makes me slower again. Losing 6 kg drops my time by about 30 mins, and allows me to up my power a bit to shave another 15 mins.
Plus the effect on the run is about 20/secs per mile.
My thoughts are that you are worrying about theoretical issues. I'm sorry but I'm deeply sceptical about those who analyse every scientific detail. Training for Triathlon isn't massively complicated really. But I guess lots of analysis is what sells 220 magazine...Plus the effect on the run is about 20/secs per mile.
What are you going to do on race day when there's a mental headwind for 60k? How will dropping that weight help? I'm assuming you are an AGer. I'm also assuming you have a proper training plan. Written by a professional with experience of Triathlon. As opposed to a Swim coach, a bike coach and a Run coach.
Scabutz said:
I did a "big day" training day yesterday and on a big hill I slowed to 5km/h to keep my power at target. That has a massive effect to my overall average speed.
Fitness wise I feel great, its the weight holding me back.
What was your "big day" yesterday?Fitness wise I feel great, its the weight holding me back.
How heavy are you currently? What power are you at and what are you aiming for?
More pertinently, why do you assume its your weight holding you back?
Rich_W said:
He wants to drop 6kg! 2 and a half months from his race. You aren't suggesting that's wise Shirley? To me it's a bit too close to "crash diet" (unless he weights 100kgs, but I'll assume not)
Your assumption is almost wrong. I weigh 106Kg :-) That doesn't mean I am a massive fatty. I am 6'5'', medium frame and a reasonable amount of muscle. Think of James Cracknell if he ever let himself go! I have a good amount of tummy fat. I reckon BF is in the 25% region.My FTP is 314W. I am targeting approx 200W AP, I would guess my NP would be slightly higher purely based on the amount of climbing. The weight is holding me back because to lug 106 Kg, + 2kG nutrition + 8-9Kg of bike (61cm carbon frames still weigh a fair bit) takes a lot more than 220W on anything over 4%
Start of last season I was 97kg. I did an oly race and felt epic. I set a 10k PB in that race so that seems a good weight for me to be near.
My problem at the minute is comfort eating. Got a little bit of home and work stress and that's my outlet. Better than it used to be which was 2 bottles of red wine!
Yes I have a proper coach. All the BTF stuff, got over 110 triathletes in his club including kona qualifiers and world's/euro qualifiers and champs so no problem with the training plan at all.
Anyway. The "Big Day". Its a Joe Friel thing. http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/04/ironman-big-d...
Went really well. Swim is my strongest but I am going to use my strength to basically get round with as little effort as possible. I targeted a 1:41/100m and I came in with 1:42/100m pace. Bike I went for as hilly course as possible. 110km, average 24km/h. AP 201, NP 202. Run felt really good, walked the "aid stations". Fitness wise it felt where it needs to be. Couple of comfort issues to deal with. My DS Long Course tri suit chaffed a bit.
Rich_W said:
What are you going to do on race day when there's a mental headwind for 60k? How will dropping that weight help?
and to answer this. A headwind for 60K I am less bothered by. I don't have the most aggressive position but I have had a bike fit from someone highly recommended and I have a decent aero position. My size means I have the power to push through at a reasonable speed. But with 2500m of climbing on the lanza course any additional weight is going to really slow me down.Not to mention on the run every lb of fat loss is roughly 2/secs a mile quicker, not to mention the reduction in impact on joints and muscles etc
Scabutz said:
and to answer this. A headwind for 60K I am less bothered by. I don't have the most aggressive position but I have had a bike fit from someone highly recommended and I have a decent aero position. My size means I have the power to push through at a reasonable speed. But with 2500m of climbing on the lanza course any additional weight is going to really slow me down.
Not to mention on the run every lb of fat loss is roughly 2/secs a mile quicker, not to mention the reduction in impact on joints and muscles etc
There is some kidology in your numbers, but overall obviously losing weight is a substantial advantage over the whole day, great efficiency etc. 6kg is pushing close to a stone. So your are looking at 30sec per mile 15 minutes on the run. Worth chasing, but I wouldn’t crash your training and re stocking your fuel for all of that. Not to mention on the run every lb of fat loss is roughly 2/secs a mile quicker, not to mention the reduction in impact on joints and muscles etc
Scabutz said:
Anyway. The "Big Day". Its a Joe Friel thing. http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/04/ironman-big-d...
Went really well. Swim is my strongest but I am going to use my strength to basically get round with as little effort as possible. I targeted a 1:41/100m and I came in with 1:42/100m pace. Bike I went for as hilly course as possible. 110km, average 24km/h. AP 201, NP 202. Run felt really good, walked the "aid stations". Fitness wise it felt where it needs to be. Couple of comfort issues to deal with. My DS Long Course tri suit chaffed a bit.
Jesus!Went really well. Swim is my strongest but I am going to use my strength to basically get round with as little effort as possible. I targeted a 1:41/100m and I came in with 1:42/100m pace. Bike I went for as hilly course as possible. 110km, average 24km/h. AP 201, NP 202. Run felt really good, walked the "aid stations". Fitness wise it felt where it needs to be. Couple of comfort issues to deal with. My DS Long Course tri suit chaffed a bit.
Did you train the next day (Monday?) Have you trained today? I would be concerned that doing that day, will affect you for more than a couple days afterwards.
What does your BTF coach think of this day? To me, it seems a bit overkill. Especially as they expect you to do 2 of these! And its not exactly polarised. The risk with that is that you end up in the "grey zone" Not fast enough. Or not slow enough to get training benefits
Edited by Rich_W on Wednesday 14th March 21:59
Scabutz said:
Got to get to up at 3 am to fly to lanza for a training camp. Get to do lots of the bike course and swim the course. Nice to do some solid training without having to worry about cooking,kids,work,life etc.
Have an awesome time!I don't know where you're staying, but definitely practice pacing Famara to Haria and on to Mirador (via some epic switchbacks!) and if you can, Arrieta to La Geria (35km of spirit sapping work, especially if the island is making things even tougher for you). If you fancy some more climbing practice, the Tabayesco is a must as well
Also have a look at the road into Nazaret. When I competed there, I knew nothing about this section and it was a complete shock - it's a long way into the bike and just the worst surface you could possibly imagine, right when you really don't want it - it's about 4ish k long and no different to riding over cobbles. Forewarned is forearmed, etc
Yep we are doing Famara, mirrador, tabyesco. Not sure I'll be able to get to nazaret. Think the coach might be worried about punctures, mechanicals and injuries! I've heard it's horrific. Some years it's removed from the course. Still rummours about that the course is changing for this year so we shall see.
Great training camp done in Lanza. Cycled all the major parts of the course, swam down in PDC, and did the run course. Practiced my power pacing on the course, all felt good.
Feeling more confident of the event now. Only down side is ended up with a huge boil on my arse! Thankfully on an easy week so not missed much training.
Fewer than 60 days to go for me now!
How's everyone's training going?
Feeling more confident of the event now. Only down side is ended up with a huge boil on my arse! Thankfully on an easy week so not missed much training.
Fewer than 60 days to go for me now!
How's everyone's training going?
Scabutz said:
Great training camp done in Lanza. Cycled all the major parts of the course, swam down in PDC, and did the run course. Practiced my power pacing on the course, all felt good.
Feeling more confident of the event now. Only down side is ended up with a huge boil on my arse! Thankfully on an easy week so not missed much training.
Fewer than 60 days to go for me now!
How's everyone's training going?
I think I saw pics of that on FB - if it was the Greenlight PT one?Feeling more confident of the event now. Only down side is ended up with a huge boil on my arse! Thankfully on an easy week so not missed much training.
Fewer than 60 days to go for me now!
How's everyone's training going?
My training is going ok - a few long runs missed for various reasons, but running well at the moment. Swimming is steadily improving I think following the swimming coaches drills. And I have discovered the wattbike! Bloody brilliant piece of kit for when I just can't face getting out on the road. All of the data appeals to my not so inner geek!
3 weeks to go!
Scabutz said:
Great training camp done in Lanza. Cycled all the major parts of the course, swam down in PDC, and did the run course. Practiced my power pacing on the course, all felt good.
Good effort mate - how was the weather/wind whilst you were out there?Scabutz said:
How's everyone's training going?
My training's actually going to plan for once - am now into double figure hour weeks and feeling lean and strong - far stronger than I'd ordinarily be at this time of the year, that's for sure. My shoulder injury seems to be healing well and I'm almost pain free now, so have kept off the swimming whilst that sorts itself out - also, the sea temperature here is 9°C, so I'm not rushing into that just yet!!!I'm still 18 weeks out so have a little way to go yet, but keeping my fingers well and truly crossed that progress continues!
craig r said:
I have discovered the wattbike! Bloody brilliant piece of kit for when I just can't face getting out on the road. All of the data appeals to my not so inner geek!
3 weeks to go!
Wattbike's are fantastic! Have you bought one? All of my bike sessions have been done indoors so far this season - I've got a smart trainer setup and I've got to say it's awesome - peeing down outside/dark/1°C? No worries, bang on some tunes, line up the drinks and get suffering!!3 weeks to go!
What event are you training for, btw?
dangerousB said:
Scabutz said:
Great training camp done in Lanza. Cycled all the major parts of the course, swam down in PDC, and did the run course. Practiced my power pacing on the course, all felt good.
Good effort mate - how was the weather/wind whilst you were out there?Running down on the front was hot. Going to be a lot hotter in May.
dangerousB said:
Wattbike's are fantastic! Have you bought one? All of my bike sessions have been done indoors so far this season - I've got a smart trainer setup and I've got to say it's awesome - peeing down outside/dark/1°C? No worries, bang on some tunes, line up the drinks and get suffering!!
What event are you training for, btw?
Not bought one, but they have a few at the gym. Wattbike app on the phone so it links to Strava which is a cool feature.What event are you training for, btw?
My event is a pool based sprint tri in Southam, so a s
t load easier than an Ironman!Durham Duathlon for me today. Wasn't looking forward to it as Ive had a bit of a cold, the weather has been crap and I hadnt actually been outside on my bike this year!
Well I nearly jacked it in after a mile of the first very muddy 5km due to coughing and tight chest. I kept going though and although I haven't seen the results my garmin suggests I was probably within 30 seconds of my finishing time in 2016. Very different race though as I was about 2 minutes slower on each run leg and 4 minutes faster on the bike today. The run was hard though, about 80% on muddy grass, plus I am nowhere near as quick running as I was 2 years ago.
Another good day for the wife 2 more trophies for 3rd overall female/3rd 30 female.
Well I nearly jacked it in after a mile of the first very muddy 5km due to coughing and tight chest. I kept going though and although I haven't seen the results my garmin suggests I was probably within 30 seconds of my finishing time in 2016. Very different race though as I was about 2 minutes slower on each run leg and 4 minutes faster on the bike today. The run was hard though, about 80% on muddy grass, plus I am nowhere near as quick running as I was 2 years ago.
Another good day for the wife 2 more trophies for 3rd overall female/3rd 30 female.
Some of you will know the story of Tim Don and his RTA before Kona last year
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/t...
They made a short video and there's a fuller length film coming out in May.
Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzNuQZHNUN8
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/t...
They made a short video and there's a fuller length film coming out in May.
Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzNuQZHNUN8
Yesterday was my big day, Southam triathlon. A pool based tri with 400m swim / 20km bike / 5km run and I had 4 targets:
1. don't drown
2. don't fall over still clipped into my bike
3. don't fall over in T2
4. finish in sub 90 minutes
I got over excited in the swim and took in two big lungfuls of water which meant I was fighting my breathing for 350m of the swim. Not a great start I'll admit, bit I was breathing normally when I finished the swim and made my way to T1. So 1 out of 4 failed.
It was FREEZING at 8am on Sunday, and there was a bit of drizzle so my socks and bike shoes were wet. Never mind, I had just been for a swim so I thought I would just suck it up and get on with it. Struggled getting socks on, struggled with my number belt, but got my helmet on OK so off I went. I was quite happy with the bike, overtook a couple of people who went past me in the swim. Approach to the dismount line wasn't the best. Got my left foot stuck in my pedal so keeled over at the dismount line and ended up on my arse. Now 2 out of 4 failed.
Into T2, found my spot and mounted my bike put on my trainers and started running. No jelly legs, so I was happy! Still 2 out 4 failed. 500m later I forgot to tighten my laces so stopped to do that. My run was comfortable, if not quick, but I had high expectations coming off the back of a Parkrun PB a few weeks ago. After a few laps of a soggy field I crossed the line got my medal and thought 'why did I want to do this? And when can I do another one?!'
Splits:
Swim - 10:54
T1 - 1:37
Bike - 45:01
T2 - 1:09
Run 26:51
Overall - 1:25:33
I am well happy with that, considering everything that went wrong!
1. don't drown
2. don't fall over still clipped into my bike
3. don't fall over in T2
4. finish in sub 90 minutes
I got over excited in the swim and took in two big lungfuls of water which meant I was fighting my breathing for 350m of the swim. Not a great start I'll admit, bit I was breathing normally when I finished the swim and made my way to T1. So 1 out of 4 failed.
It was FREEZING at 8am on Sunday, and there was a bit of drizzle so my socks and bike shoes were wet. Never mind, I had just been for a swim so I thought I would just suck it up and get on with it. Struggled getting socks on, struggled with my number belt, but got my helmet on OK so off I went. I was quite happy with the bike, overtook a couple of people who went past me in the swim. Approach to the dismount line wasn't the best. Got my left foot stuck in my pedal so keeled over at the dismount line and ended up on my arse. Now 2 out of 4 failed.
Into T2, found my spot and mounted my bike put on my trainers and started running. No jelly legs, so I was happy! Still 2 out 4 failed. 500m later I forgot to tighten my laces so stopped to do that. My run was comfortable, if not quick, but I had high expectations coming off the back of a Parkrun PB a few weeks ago. After a few laps of a soggy field I crossed the line got my medal and thought 'why did I want to do this? And when can I do another one?!'
Splits:
Swim - 10:54
T1 - 1:37
Bike - 45:01
T2 - 1:09
Run 26:51
Overall - 1:25:33
I am well happy with that, considering everything that went wrong!
Good work Craig. Its a slippery slope now you have done your first and enjoyed it. Soon you will have shaved legs, 5 bikes, and all your time, energy and money will be spent on triathlon!
Transitions become easier and more fluid the more you do them. Think everyone's first T1/T2 went wrong in one way or another.
So what one you doing next?
Transitions become easier and more fluid the more you do them. Think everyone's first T1/T2 went wrong in one way or another.
So what one you doing next?
Scabutz said:
Good work Craig. Its a slippery slope now you have done your first and enjoyed it. Soon you will have shaved legs, 5 bikes, and all your time, energy and money will be spent on triathlon!
Transitions become easier and more fluid the more you do them. Think everyone's first T1/T2 went wrong in one way or another.
So what one you doing next?
Thanks!Transitions become easier and more fluid the more you do them. Think everyone's first T1/T2 went wrong in one way or another.
So what one you doing next?
Next one I'm aiming for is Bedford on 22nd July. It's 750m open water swim! I'm used to swimming in the sea, mostly off boats on holiday, so I don't think the open water is anything too much to freak out about, but I'm thinking of entering an OW event at Box End in the middle of next month to dip my toe into the murky world of lake swimming in a wetsuit.
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