Biggest gap between professional & enthusiast?
Discussion
superkartracer said:
Can't be bothered going into all the above posts in detail and unless you are an athlete yourself it'll be hard for you to understand.
SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above
The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.
1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique
4. Pain control and injury management during event
5. Fuel management during sport
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time.
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress.
Some samples -
F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing
GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above
Golf
Darts
Etc
"Requires 100% of each". So if an athlete isn't putting in 100%, or fails at any of those 7 points, then its not a sport?SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above
The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.
1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique
4. Pain control and injury management during event
5. Fuel management during sport
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time.
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress.
Some samples -
F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing
GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above
Golf
Darts
Etc
Don't think you've fully thought out your statement.
Oh, and the "if you're not an athlete you won't understand", don't be ridiculous! Some athletes are thick as s**t and aren't even aware of some sporting concepts
gmh23 said:
samwilliams said:
I'd put them in the same category as figure skaters - I think a sport needs to be able to have a clear and objective winner, not rely on subjective judgements.
Then you'd rule out a 12 round boxing match as well then? if it goes to pointsThat would keep boxing in the "sport" category, but things like figure skating, body building, synchronised swimming, most skateboarding and ballroom dancing would not; I think of them more as competitive arts!
(I reserve the right to subtly modify my distinction later, should someone else come up with a fairly good example which doesn't fall the side I want it to!)
gmh23 said:
Oh, and the "if you're not an athlete you won't understand", don't be ridiculous! Some athletes are thick as s**t and aren't even aware of some sporting concepts
Nope, what i'm saying is *Sport* requires those 7 points, games do not.Thick as s
t ? , humans by their very nature are highly intelligent, even the *thick* ones. To become a good athlete you need a deep understanding of many concepts and more.People always say -
Fancy a game of Golf or game of Darts
http://www.fairfieldgolf.co.uk/
http://www.learnaboutdarts.com/
^^ Games
Edited by superkartracer on Monday 30th April 19:36
superkartracer said:
Most of the points made in that article apply equally to motorsport (including a specific mention at one point), which you have been vigorously defending. In golf you have to walk around. In motor racing you don't even have to stand up! If you're going to try to select articles that support your view, take a little more care over it, please!superkartracer said:
Can't be bothered going into all the above posts in detail and unless you are an athlete yourself it'll be hard for you to understand.
SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above
The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.
1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique
4. Pain control and injury management during event
5. Fuel management during sport
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time.
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress.
Some samples -
F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing
GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above
Golf
Darts
Etc
I used to play golf to a very good club level (scratch). I played in country and national events which were extremely competitive. I would spend 4 or 5 hours practicing on the range and on my short gamne ahead of a 4 or 5 hour round of golf. And I'd do this 3 or 4 days in a row. And when I wasn't playing I was thinking about my game, or reading about the game, or going to the gym to increase my core muscles so I could hit the ball further.SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above
The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.
1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique
4. Pain control and injury management during event
5. Fuel management during sport
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time.
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress.
Some samples -
F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing
GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above
Golf
Darts
Etc
And when I entered a competition I was focussed to win.
I have also recently done a few triathlons. And I am hopelessly slow. A good result for me is not being last. I swim as fast as I can, I cycle as fast as I can and I run as fast as I can, but I am still woefully slow. But it doesn't matter because I do it for fun really.
Which of the above 2 activities made me most of a sportsman?
For me, being mostly exposed to swimming and the british swimmers.... I will say swimming.
As a bit of background when I was younger: I used to do 10 sessions a week, 60km a week in the pool. Though I would only ever describe myself as average, I did at least make it to the national champs and had a spell in one of the Loughborough Uni squads when I got to uni. Not that fit anymore, I still train, but a lot less. But I do more weight room stuff so I can still sprint like I used to, if not faster, especially over shorter distances. My friends tell me I make swimming look easy (its bloody not! I just have a long efficient stroke!).
But in the same way they can't hope to match me... I can't hope to match the pro's
over 50 and 100 freestyle I may just about be able to keep pace with.... our women freestylers. Fran Halsall would completely hand my ass to me however. Over longer distances? forget it.
When it comes to the guys? absolutely no chance. I bet the speeds I do in training when I am trying, is what they do for swim down after a race. I remember Ross Davenport getting in the lane next to me and doing 50's from a push, on 26-27 seconds, as a sort of cool down. I could maybe do that once. Then need a rest. This guy did that over and over!!
Liam Tancock can go 23 seconds for a 50m U/W dolphin kick. I can't even do that with a pair of training fins, and Im still a second slower if I did an all out freestyle 50!!! his 100m back is faster than my 100 freestyle and backstroke is the 3rd fastest stroke!!!
But, if I need anymore proof about just how obscene the pro's are you needn't look any further than this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6uqZd8Tn3Y
Sun Yang breaking Grant Hacketts 10 year old 1500m freestyle record. He was no where near the WR for most of the race. Then posted a 54 flat on the final 100. <------- that right there is just daft. That is absolutely daft. 14 100's cruising well under a minute is hard.... to then turn the wick up on the last 100 and do that is just obscene.
Also I agree with cycling...... I cannot believe the speed those guys go. For mile after mile as well. Its incredible.
As a bit of background when I was younger: I used to do 10 sessions a week, 60km a week in the pool. Though I would only ever describe myself as average, I did at least make it to the national champs and had a spell in one of the Loughborough Uni squads when I got to uni. Not that fit anymore, I still train, but a lot less. But I do more weight room stuff so I can still sprint like I used to, if not faster, especially over shorter distances. My friends tell me I make swimming look easy (its bloody not! I just have a long efficient stroke!).
But in the same way they can't hope to match me... I can't hope to match the pro's
over 50 and 100 freestyle I may just about be able to keep pace with.... our women freestylers. Fran Halsall would completely hand my ass to me however. Over longer distances? forget it.
When it comes to the guys? absolutely no chance. I bet the speeds I do in training when I am trying, is what they do for swim down after a race. I remember Ross Davenport getting in the lane next to me and doing 50's from a push, on 26-27 seconds, as a sort of cool down. I could maybe do that once. Then need a rest. This guy did that over and over!!
Liam Tancock can go 23 seconds for a 50m U/W dolphin kick. I can't even do that with a pair of training fins, and Im still a second slower if I did an all out freestyle 50!!! his 100m back is faster than my 100 freestyle and backstroke is the 3rd fastest stroke!!!
But, if I need anymore proof about just how obscene the pro's are you needn't look any further than this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6uqZd8Tn3Y
Sun Yang breaking Grant Hacketts 10 year old 1500m freestyle record. He was no where near the WR for most of the race. Then posted a 54 flat on the final 100. <------- that right there is just daft. That is absolutely daft. 14 100's cruising well under a minute is hard.... to then turn the wick up on the last 100 and do that is just obscene.
Also I agree with cycling...... I cannot believe the speed those guys go. For mile after mile as well. Its incredible.
gmh23 said:
blueg33 said:
Is anyone old enough to remember the TV programme from the 70's "Superstars"?
They pitched elete sports people from different sports against each other in a range of fitness type competitions, eg swimming, running, push ups etc a big range. I seem to recall that Jody Schekter (F1 driver) was frequently the best all rounder.
Similar thing on BBC3 a while ago, called "Last Man Standing".They pitched elete sports people from different sports against each other in a range of fitness type competitions, eg swimming, running, push ups etc a big range. I seem to recall that Jody Schekter (F1 driver) was frequently the best all rounder.
IIRC it was a boxer who won that though
Im not old enough to remember the 70's version but apparently Kevin Keegan suffered a similar fate when he appeared on it (if he did indeed appear on it... I am just quoting what I was told)
Oh and in Last man standing, the guy who did quite well but didn't win is called Raiko ... or similar. Met the guy, he's an animal and has incredible endurance. Google the Dragan challenge (his dad)... he goes up against anyone who dares just curling and pressing 20kg dumbbells. I think he once did over 1000 reps continuously as muslce man after muscle man stepped up to take him on and then rapidly wilted.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 1st May 23:12
superkartracer said:
Can't be bothered going into all the above posts in detail and unless you are an athlete yourself it'll be hard for you to understand.
SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above
The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.
1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit Not so much in golf, but most top golfers will do a lot of training in the gym. I'd put them level with cricketers at the Tour Pro level
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport Yes, you need this for golf, especially as it's less of an instinctive game
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique Yep, you need this in buckets to generate 100mph plus club head speed to hit the ball 300 yards with accuracy
4. Pain control and injury management during event Not sure how relevant this is - if I play football and don't get hurt, does that make it a game?
5. Fuel management during sport Ask Lee Westwood how he coped with 32 holes in Jakarta recently in 35 degrees and 90% humidity
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time. Golf has the latter in spades, as you can end up thinking about a bad shot for 10 minutes sometimes
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress. Ditto
Some samples -
F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing
GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above
Golf
Darts
Etc
SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above
The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.
1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit Not so much in golf, but most top golfers will do a lot of training in the gym. I'd put them level with cricketers at the Tour Pro level
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport Yes, you need this for golf, especially as it's less of an instinctive game
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique Yep, you need this in buckets to generate 100mph plus club head speed to hit the ball 300 yards with accuracy
4. Pain control and injury management during event Not sure how relevant this is - if I play football and don't get hurt, does that make it a game?
5. Fuel management during sport Ask Lee Westwood how he coped with 32 holes in Jakarta recently in 35 degrees and 90% humidity
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time. Golf has the latter in spades, as you can end up thinking about a bad shot for 10 minutes sometimes
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress. Ditto
Some samples -
F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing
GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above
Golf
Darts
Etc
The biggest gaps are probably in sports where you would simply kill yourself if you would do the same speeds as the pros:
Motor racing - The motor does the speed - you can go the same pace as the professionals - until the first turn comes up - bye
Downhill racing and skiing - Gravity does the speed - you can go the same pace as the professionals - until the first lift-off - bye
Motor racing - The motor does the speed - you can go the same pace as the professionals - until the first turn comes up - bye
Downhill racing and skiing - Gravity does the speed - you can go the same pace as the professionals - until the first lift-off - bye
Bing o said:
superkartracer said:
Can't be bothered going into all the above posts in detail and unless you are an athlete yourself it'll be hard for you to understand.
SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above
The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.
1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit Not so much in golf, but most top golfers will do a lot of training in the gym. I'd put them level with cricketers at the Tour Pro level
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport Yes, you need this for golf, especially as it's less of an instinctive game
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique Yep, you need this in buckets to generate 100mph plus club head speed to hit the ball 300 yards with accuracy
4. Pain control and injury management during event Not sure how relevant this is - if I play football and don't get hurt, does that make it a game?
5. Fuel management during sport Ask Lee Westwood how he coped with 32 holes in Jakarta recently in 35 degrees and 90% humidity
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time. Golf has the latter in spades, as you can end up thinking about a bad shot for 10 minutes sometimes
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress. Ditto
Some samples -
F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing
GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above
Golf
Darts
Etc
SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above
The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.
1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit Not so much in golf, but most top golfers will do a lot of training in the gym. I'd put them level with cricketers at the Tour Pro level
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport Yes, you need this for golf, especially as it's less of an instinctive game
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique Yep, you need this in buckets to generate 100mph plus club head speed to hit the ball 300 yards with accuracy
4. Pain control and injury management during event Not sure how relevant this is - if I play football and don't get hurt, does that make it a game?
5. Fuel management during sport Ask Lee Westwood how he coped with 32 holes in Jakarta recently in 35 degrees and 90% humidity
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time. Golf has the latter in spades, as you can end up thinking about a bad shot for 10 minutes sometimes
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress. Ditto
Some samples -
F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing
GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above
Golf
Darts
Etc
superkartracer said:
Great points and insight thanks Bing-o, hmmm Golf does indeed sound far more of a sport than Dart's could ever be, so i guess we'll remove it from the *games* list
Your original list seems to come down to one thing imho: do you sweat whilst taking part?Darts, for instance, is a truly dull spectacle, to me. Yet I can't help but feel that the physical accuracy and mental strength required to compete at the highest level are inherently sports like. I bet darts players core muscles are incredibly strong too
Snowboarding or skydiving.
There is a massive difference between a professional snowboarder / skydiver than an enthusist.
Some of this boils down to natural ability, a lot comes down to a person's frame of mind.
The other main obstacle, is that once on the professional rung - the level of improvement cannot be matched.
Saying that - professional snowboarding back in the late 90s was a totally different kettle of fish to what it has become today. Alas money meets have killed a lot of the "life style" and commradarie around the sport.
Fortuntely, but not for long - skydiving still has this.
There is a massive difference between a professional snowboarder / skydiver than an enthusist.
Some of this boils down to natural ability, a lot comes down to a person's frame of mind.
The other main obstacle, is that once on the professional rung - the level of improvement cannot be matched.
Saying that - professional snowboarding back in the late 90s was a totally different kettle of fish to what it has become today. Alas money meets have killed a lot of the "life style" and commradarie around the sport.
Fortuntely, but not for long - skydiving still has this.
funny how everybody mentions their own hobby/interest.
my hobbies include kart racing, motocross, golf, snooker/pool, clay/game shooting, ski/snowboarding. all of these i consider myself good enough to compete at a 'sunday league' kind of level, perhaps not the snowsports.
I think almost every sport has a similar gap between enthusiastic amateur and top level professional, and that gap is enormous, too big to comprehend unless you get up close and spend lots of time in and around the professionals. and, for every year that passes the number of sports that are considered 'easier' to reach the top is shrinking.
take darts as an example, i would consider this to be one of the easier sports to get to the top. 15 years ago (ok i was only 11) but from watching period footage i reckon i could of got a load of practice in and competed with the lakeside world championship lot had i been around then. but not now, the consistant accuracy of the guys in the modern game is incredible.
same as any sport, the people at the top are SO far from enthusiasts.
if i had to choose a sport i would probably opt for a 'physical' speed sport, where not only serious fitnes is needed, but also amazing skill, huge nerve and balls of steel. something like superbike racing, or downhill skiing, or F1, possibly even horse racing.
my hobbies include kart racing, motocross, golf, snooker/pool, clay/game shooting, ski/snowboarding. all of these i consider myself good enough to compete at a 'sunday league' kind of level, perhaps not the snowsports.
I think almost every sport has a similar gap between enthusiastic amateur and top level professional, and that gap is enormous, too big to comprehend unless you get up close and spend lots of time in and around the professionals. and, for every year that passes the number of sports that are considered 'easier' to reach the top is shrinking.
take darts as an example, i would consider this to be one of the easier sports to get to the top. 15 years ago (ok i was only 11) but from watching period footage i reckon i could of got a load of practice in and competed with the lakeside world championship lot had i been around then. but not now, the consistant accuracy of the guys in the modern game is incredible.
same as any sport, the people at the top are SO far from enthusiasts.
if i had to choose a sport i would probably opt for a 'physical' speed sport, where not only serious fitnes is needed, but also amazing skill, huge nerve and balls of steel. something like superbike racing, or downhill skiing, or F1, possibly even horse racing.
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