Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
cotney said:
Is anyone else of the opinion that even though he was doping his way through, so was everyone else at the time, so in effect it was a level playing field and he was the best?
A quick look at Christophe Bassons, Felipe Simeoni, Paul Kimmage etc etc should disabuse anyone of this notion. Lots of guys rode clean. They were denied the opportunity to win, or even to compete, and to earn a living by Armstrong and the culture that he was a kingpin in promoting. Brian Smith wrote a good article in yesterday's Mail. To suggest "everyone" was at it does a huge disservice to those who refused to do so and paid the price for living to their values. 
Foggy748 said:
I don't doubt at all that he and the rest of the peleton were taking drugs. His will to win, to push his limits was outstanding. He did a hell of a lot for cycling.
He did do a lot for cycling! He cycled EPO, Andriol, Cortisone, Human growth hormone and Actovegin! The man was a legend! mcelliott said:
Can't knock your fervent support of Lance - one thing's for sure, and you're absolutely right, his will to win and pure singlemindedness was truly astonishing -
His will to fill himself with every chemical known to man was pretty dedicated.
JuniorD said:
Anyone who thinks Lance Armstrong is a legend and a force for good should read this, the statement of Simeoni who was humiliated and ruined by Armstrong during a race in 2004 . The further link in the story details the incident. Armstrong is an utterly despicable person.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simeoni-armstrong-...
Remember this too?http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simeoni-armstrong-...
Italian national champion Filippo Simeoni has returned his red, green and white jersey to the national federation in protest over his squad's Giro d'Italia snub. Ceramica Flaminia was left out of the Giro d'Italia lineup after event organiser RCS Sport announced last week the Fuji-Servetto squad - which was asked to leave last year's Tour de France due to doping violations - would be awarded the final spot.
"It is unacceptable that the Italian champion cannot compete in the biggest event in his country," Simeoni told reporters on Monday.
Ceramica Flaminia team manager Roberto Marrone appealed to International Cycling Union (UCI) president Pat McQuaid over his team's exclusion from the Giro at the weekend. Marrone complained in a letter to McQuaid that selection to the Grand Tours and other important races are supposed to be by regulation, "based on pure merit and ethical sport".
Smacks of Systematic, organised attacks via his stooges. A protest that led to him being suspended for 4 months btw.
One thing that has puzzled me is tat it's widely reported that Armstrong has never said that he didn't take PEDs, just things like, "I have never failed a test." or "I never cheated" (which could be massaged away if everyone else was on PEDs, as still remaining on al level playing field) yet here is a quote that suggests he did actually say he had not taken drugs.
"Armstrong last night dismissed the investigation as a “witch-hunt”. “I have never doped,” he affirmed in a statement.
from:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bassons-and-simeon...
I wonder if it is a direct quote or they massaged the words?
"Armstrong last night dismissed the investigation as a “witch-hunt”. “I have never doped,” he affirmed in a statement.
from:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bassons-and-simeon...
I wonder if it is a direct quote or they massaged the words?
el stovey said:
Foggy748 said:
f
k em all Lance. You were the best for 7 years - drugs or no drugs, you were the best.
Best at doping and bulying and lying. k em all Lance. You were the best for 7 years - drugs or no drugs, you were the best.No one respects Michael Johnson for cheating in the 100m Olympics even though plenty of others took steroids in sprinting and he was the fastest by a mile. Lance might impress some of you with his single-mindedness and I can see your point, but there are others, equally driven who managed to restrain themselves from cheating - unfortunately LA didn't have the backbone to do that nor come out and be honest like Landis et al eventually did.
The guy I want to see go down is Hein Verbruggen for covering all this up - esp Lance's positive dope test in 2001. Staggering that he is now on the Olympic committee, but I suspect being bent is a pre-requisite
JRM said:
Exactly.
No one respects Ben Johnson for cheating in the 100m Olympics even though plenty of others took steroids in sprinting and he was the fastest by a mile. Lance might impress some of you with his single-mindedness and I can see your point, but there are others, equally driven who managed to restrain themselves from cheating - unfortunately LA didn't have the backbone to do that nor come out and be honest like Landis et al eventually did.
The guy I want to see go down is Hein Verbruggen for covering all this up - esp Lance's positive dope test in 2001. Staggering that he is now on the Olympic committee, but I suspect being bent is a pre-requisite
No one respects Ben Johnson for cheating in the 100m Olympics even though plenty of others took steroids in sprinting and he was the fastest by a mile. Lance might impress some of you with his single-mindedness and I can see your point, but there are others, equally driven who managed to restrain themselves from cheating - unfortunately LA didn't have the backbone to do that nor come out and be honest like Landis et al eventually did.
The guy I want to see go down is Hein Verbruggen for covering all this up - esp Lance's positive dope test in 2001. Staggering that he is now on the Olympic committee, but I suspect being bent is a pre-requisite
Rocksteadyeddie said:
A quick look at Christophe Bassons, Felipe Simeoni, Paul Kimmage etc etc should disabuse anyone of this notion. Lots of guys rode clean. They were denied the opportunity to win, or even to compete, and to earn a living by Armstrong and the culture that he was a kingpin in promoting. Brian Smith wrote a good article in yesterday's Mail. To suggest "everyone" was at it does a huge disservice to those who refused to do so and paid the price for living to their values.
Good article,and a very good point about all the team mates now coming out when their careers are all but over but keeping hold of wealth that the cheating provided!If you give people the incentive to cheat if the punishments are not harsh enough then they will.
Can the confiscation of criminal proceeds be used to get the money back from these cheats?
He'll more than likely be back in a court of some description soon enough . . .
As an example . . .
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/11/lance-...
As an example . . .
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/11/lance-...
As someone who has enjoyed cycling for 35+ years and followed tdf for almost as long, I just think its a sad situation for a great sport. See posts debating whether Armstrong sees this as a win or not and whether the USADA would win in court. Be under no illusions, everyone involved in the sport, whether its an armchair enthusiast through to LA himself has lost out due to this whole sorry situation. Its a proper lose-lose and no matter what tests, legislation, oaths, promises, processes and procedures result from this unholy mess, I fail to see how it will take less than 10 years to restore any faith in this sport. And no, I don't think cycling is unique, given the pressures and the financial incentives in other sports and the improvements these drugs can make to an athletes performance, it seems unlikely that every other sport is clean, just someohow, cycling and the tdf in particular is fly-paper for this stuff.
Anyway, off to bleed the brakes on the marin, and yes i'm still clean, unless you include the byetta, metformin, linsinopril and simvastatin
Anyway, off to bleed the brakes on the marin, and yes i'm still clean, unless you include the byetta, metformin, linsinopril and simvastatin
Robsti said:
But the crime was committed in France?
Partially, when LA and others lived in Nice, and during the tours. However Hamilton's book describes how LA moved to Girona because things were less risky in Spain. In addition the majority of EPO use and transfusions happened out of competition at home or in places like Valencia. Any criminal prosecution in France would have to ascertain exactly what happened, where and when to stick, and prove it beyond reasonable doubt.The chances of LA being tried for a criminal charge of doping in France are negligible. However the chances of him being tried in the US for perjury are much higher...
Honestly? You think there is a chance he will be tried, never mind convicted of anything? I suspect the costs would be prohibitive, the benefits non existant. He is found guilty? No surprise, he is found innocent, the whole world will remain suspicious. I've probably missed something, but I see no benefit to the sport or the general public in taking him to court. i doubt it would be worthwhile for those he has let down commercially either. As I say above, there is no win in this, no matter how it plays out.
A really well considered piece by Joey Barton. I never thought those words would find their way into the same sentence.
TedMaul said:
Honestly? You think there is a chance he will be tried, never mind convicted of anything? I suspect the costs would be prohibitive, the benefits non existant. He is found guilty? No surprise, he is found innocent, the whole world will remain suspicious. I've probably missed something, but I see no benefit to the sport or the general public in taking him to court. i doubt it would be worthwhile for those he has let down commercially either. As I say above, there is no win in this, no matter how it plays out.
I'd agree with everything you say if I had said he would be tried for doping, but I didn't. The justification of trying people for perjury is fairly clear.Interesting article attempting to work out who should be awarded Armstrong's TDF titles, but using a zero tolerance approach - any drugs bans at any point in your career and you're ruled out of this verdict.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/08/25/i...
Makes for interesting reading for context, if not anything like representative of what may actually end up happening.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/08/25/i...
Makes for interesting reading for context, if not anything like representative of what may actually end up happening.
It's a nasty business for sure but I think its one of those watershed moments that will clean up the sport finally. There's probably many more revelations and twists to come, I really hope the UCI finally gets sorted out, they've overseen all of this and must have known what was going on.
groomi said:
Interesting article attempting to work out who should be awarded Armstrong's TDF titles, but using a zero tolerance approach - any drugs bans at any point in your career and you're ruled out of this verdict.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/08/25/i...
Makes for interesting reading for context, if not anything like representative of what may actually end up happening.
I'm too lazy to read that but here's a picture, which is now out of date.http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/08/25/i...
Makes for interesting reading for context, if not anything like representative of what may actually end up happening.
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