The PH Gun Cabinet - Shooting Matters
Discussion
Having a load of shotguns at a clay ground is no different to a normal gun shop of which there are thousands.
He was 21 applying for a shotgun with absolutely no reason to have one that was supported by location, profession or sustained sporting interest.
I can predict now that the rules will tighten after this. My nephew got a SGC at age 19. Lives in a farm cottage, had a half gun membership of a local pheasant shoot, was in air rifle club at school, shot rifles in Army Cadets for years, steady job, nice personable lad.
It's for people like him a shotgun is absolutely fine. Not so much Jack Davison. Its just old fashioned common sense.
He was 21 applying for a shotgun with absolutely no reason to have one that was supported by location, profession or sustained sporting interest.
I can predict now that the rules will tighten after this. My nephew got a SGC at age 19. Lives in a farm cottage, had a half gun membership of a local pheasant shoot, was in air rifle club at school, shot rifles in Army Cadets for years, steady job, nice personable lad.
It's for people like him a shotgun is absolutely fine. Not so much Jack Davison. Its just old fashioned common sense.
Love Labradors said:
correct me if i'm wrong but to obtain a shotgun certificate you do not have to prove membership of a clay ground or shooting rights over a section of land?
No you do not have to prove anything. Edited by Love Labradors on Sunday 15th August 11:16
There is no process to check membership nor is there any ongoing check to verify you are using that membership.
Some forces *may* ask if you plan to join a club at the interview, you can just say yes. But the bottom line is you can own a shotgun and for example go and pay visitors fees at any clay ground you like if you really want and never be a member of any club.
Firearms is different as your club need to vouch for you. If you are shooting over land then in almost all cases at first grant you need another person approved over that land to vouch for you also.
Then the police check you have been using your firearms by seeing what ammo you have been buying. In the case of home loaders who shoot at clubs they will normally have to keep a round count.
Any Home Office approved club has to update the police every 12 months with their current membership list.
The club also has to keep records of what firearms have been used on each visit as you have to continue to keep your "good reason". These records have to be kept available to the police.
Most target shooters have the words "continue to be a member at abc club" in their special conditions on their FAC.
I have a feeling we might see shotguns moving to a similar scheme as firearms. Or a version of it.
I share your feeling. At least for new issues. They need to do those checks more stringently as well - I have bought no .22LR ammo for years as a friend buys in bulk at a great price and I buy it off him. But on paper it looks like I am not using the gun and its never been questioned.
Honeywell said:
Having a load of shotguns at a clay ground is no different to a normal gun shop of which there are thousands.
He was 21 applying for a shotgun with absolutely no reason to have one that was supported by location, profession or sustained sporting interest.
I can predict now that the rules will tighten after this. My nephew got a SGC at age 19. Lives in a farm cottage, had a half gun membership of a local pheasant shoot, was in air rifle club at school, shot rifles in Army Cadets for years, steady job, nice personable lad.
It's for people like him a shotgun is absolutely fine. Not so much Jack Davison. Its just old fashioned common sense.
as posted earlier the Home Office decided against clubs becoming arsenals because most could never afford it - also under your type of proposals it would include firearmsHe was 21 applying for a shotgun with absolutely no reason to have one that was supported by location, profession or sustained sporting interest.
I can predict now that the rules will tighten after this. My nephew got a SGC at age 19. Lives in a farm cottage, had a half gun membership of a local pheasant shoot, was in air rifle club at school, shot rifles in Army Cadets for years, steady job, nice personable lad.
It's for people like him a shotgun is absolutely fine. Not so much Jack Davison. Its just old fashioned common sense.
its totally impractical as well - i decide i want to shoot rabbits today - how do i get access to my gun because there could only be a very few 'key holders'
as has been mentioned by others for a shotgun certificate you do not have to prove a 'need' unlike for firearms
as regards need versus ammunition used for firearms it depends on how strictly the local Police force follow up on home checks
my force initially asked how many rounds of each calibre i 'needed' not wanted to be held at any one time
at each annual home visit ammo purchases were checked and stored rounds counted
but if you feel you are not using enough rounds to justify needs in truth you can just go out and have some target practice
i remember many years having a long conversation with a very experience Police firearms officer who retired and went into the licencing dept
he felt like me that the law was the wrong way round as shotguns are far more dangerous than firearms (rifles specifically) because any idiot can fire a shotgun at short range to deadly effect
shot guns can be cut down for easy concealment - ever heard of a sawn off 7.62?
not forgetting today illegal high quality handguns have never been easier to buy if you have the money - and i'm not talking of Saturday Night Specials but things such as Sig 226/Glocks etc
just seen on the news that Police will in future be required to do Social Media searches on new applications for firearms/shotguns
how can this possibly works? - eg i have no social media accounts nor do 90% plus of my friends
also to check a person you need to know the 'alias' they use on said sites
given how easy it is to hide both your name/location this is a non starter and a waste of valuable police resources - also there is the legal aspect of such searches and any information found
how can this possibly works? - eg i have no social media accounts nor do 90% plus of my friends
also to check a person you need to know the 'alias' they use on said sites
given how easy it is to hide both your name/location this is a non starter and a waste of valuable police resources - also there is the legal aspect of such searches and any information found
aeropilot said:
And many forces FET's already do limited and obvious (FB etc) social media scans and searches prior to first grant apps.
And of course we have certain well known examples where people have had licenses revoked and due to a high profile social media profile at odds with 'keeping your head down' to try and get your certs back they have have just ensured that its not going to happen.
Certainly, in this case, with a previous revoking of his SGC, I would have expected that a social media search to have been down over the period prior to considering returning it to him, just as in the old days, boots on the ground would have been making discreet face to face enquires...which should still be the way it should be done, but resources and likely Covid put a stop to.
I can see the cost of a SGC going up to fund more detailed input into applications and renewals. Wouldn't be overly upset about that (as an SGC holder), but they need to be careful not to make it so expensive that some people don't bother but keep their guns (perhaps punitive penalties for doing that might deter most).And of course we have certain well known examples where people have had licenses revoked and due to a high profile social media profile at odds with 'keeping your head down' to try and get your certs back they have have just ensured that its not going to happen.
Certainly, in this case, with a previous revoking of his SGC, I would have expected that a social media search to have been down over the period prior to considering returning it to him, just as in the old days, boots on the ground would have been making discreet face to face enquires...which should still be the way it should be done, but resources and likely Covid put a stop to.
Not sure I see having to be a member of a club a solution...I'm not, mainly because I don't shoot that often so PAYG at my local ground or when up with my dad (who is in a club). I guess they could therefore say that I don't therefore need one....but would it stop issues? What would the club be on the hook for in this sort of circumstance??
The point about club membership is that it would be required IF your reason for having the shotgun is clay shooting. If your reason for having the shotgun is for pest control then you'd need to show you have suitable land, ie not a housing association flat. If the use is for pheasant shooting etc then membership of a shoot/permission to shoot on someone else land.
Basically I think we should bring the FAC style needs into the SGC regime because then maniacs like this guy will have to jump through some hoops and incur some costs and simply won't bother.
Basically I think we should bring the FAC style needs into the SGC regime because then maniacs like this guy will have to jump through some hoops and incur some costs and simply won't bother.
Honeywell said:
The point about club membership is that it would be required IF your reason for having the shotgun is clay shooting. If your reason for having the shotgun is for pest control then you'd need to show you have suitable land, ie not a housing association flat. If the use is for pheasant shooting etc then membership of a shoot/permission to shoot on someone else land.
Basically I think we should bring the FAC style needs into the SGC regime because then maniacs like this guy will have to jump through some hoops and incur some costs and simply won't bother.
You post does not tell us how any of that stop someone with a certifcate from loading up their gun and misusing it if they are mental Basically I think we should bring the FAC style needs into the SGC regime because then maniacs like this guy will have to jump through some hoops and incur some costs and simply won't bother.
Honeywell said:
The point about club membership is that it would be required IF your reason for having the shotgun is clay shooting. If your reason for having the shotgun is for pest control then you'd need to show you have suitable land, ie not a housing association flat. If the use is for pheasant shooting etc then membership of a shoot/permission to shoot on someone else land.
Basically I think we should bring the FAC style needs into the SGC regime because then maniacs like this guy will have to jump through some hoops and incur some costs and simply won't bother.
As a seller of guns for a number of years some more observations:Basically I think we should bring the FAC style needs into the SGC regime because then maniacs like this guy will have to jump through some hoops and incur some costs and simply won't bother.
Clubs: locally we have one club for clay shooting and three other shooting grounds. The club is run by voluteers for its members. Admin therefore needs to be limited in order for all involved to actually enjoy the club in their leisuretime. Why would they want to interact with the authorities ? where is that time coming from ?
The shooting grounds are commercial ventures. Their facilities and success varies greatly due to attendance, location and affluence of its customers. Take one example here - its run by a retired chap in hs early 70s . Its his only source of income along with his basic state pension. He operates for a day a week with another 70 YO mate helping and a lady in her 70s who spends all day pulling the traps They cater for around 15/30 regular customers mostly like minded retired blokes that dont give a f
k about building their score but want to shoot and get out of the house becauce its one of the last of lifes pleasures they can induge in. How can that enterprise change into a'club' and deal with anymore admin or bullsit from the authorities and why should they change ? they have been doing it for years and are safe. From a commercial aspect my mate Bob is hardly raking it in for the effort he put into providing this facility.Pest control. Very few land owners do pest control themselves. The very nature of being a 'landowner' means you are probably enagaged in some much more time consuming and fruitful venture to get littered up with shooting a few rabbits. Most pest control is done by volunteers and shooting enthuiasts/countrymen/ people out to spend time on the land under permissions.
Pheasant shoots. The one that I am a member of is run by our shoot captain in his 70s . What possible gain is there to be had by the old bill phoning him up and asking 'is Ziplobb on your shoot ?' and really why should he waste his time interacting with them
Points earlier on in the thread about why people in a built up area/ flat/ city need a gun or go shooting. For some its a way of life and a connection with other likeminded indiviuals to enjoy yourself. For others its the connection with the countryside. For some its the involvement with a club - its matters not because its the individuals freedom to do what they please so they can enjouy their spare time. Your right to shoot should not be determined by how wealthy you are and if you can afford to live in an affluent area or own land. There are plenty of exampkes of wealthy bad apples who are not trustworthy, mental and rich.
I have a customer who lives in a one bed flat in a residential area. The location is determined by his landlord/housing association. He lives on benefits as he is dsabled. He shoots most days and is a club coach. Why should the righ be denied to him because of that situation ? that would be discimination.
I have another customer that lives in a one bed flat because he was kicked out of the 3 bed house he has lived in all of his life when his old man dies earlier this year. He does a bit of vermin control and isinterested in military history. Being able to drive out into the countryside and shoot a few bunnies and foxes is the highligh of his week.
Ziplobb said:
ou post does not tell us how any of that stop someone with a certifcate from loading up their gun and misusing it if they are mental
There's a difference between having a shotgun in a cabinet in the wardrobe and being 5 seconds from your front door and having a shotgun at the clay ground 6 miles away which is quite possibly closed and from which you should not be seen removing your gun. You'd have to get in the car, get it issued and get back to start shooting your neighbours and family and at the very least if you're intoxicated or in a rage this is going to be a challenge and time to cool down.If all I used a shotgun for was clay shooting then I would have no trouble with keeping it at their gun room. Going to be a lot less bother than buying a cabinet and drilling the walls at home etc.
This guy had no permissions to shoot over anybody's land. Frankly if he contacted me or any other farmer I know of the answer would have been NO just be glancing at him. So, absent of any land with permission to shoot over and absent of any club membership history what exactly can this new applicant use a shotgun for?
Nothing good.
As for small little volunteer clubs not wanting the hassle of filling out a form attesting to a years attendance of more than six visits and general sound conduct whilst shooting - you make that hassle a fundraising opportunity by making the applicant pay £100 fee for completing the form and the money goes to the club Secretary at the end of the year.
I can guarantee you pretty much that the public enquiry will bring the FAC concept of 'need' and suitable circumstance into the SGC system. The days of you can have one just because are numbered now.
Nothing good.
As for small little volunteer clubs not wanting the hassle of filling out a form attesting to a years attendance of more than six visits and general sound conduct whilst shooting - you make that hassle a fundraising opportunity by making the applicant pay £100 fee for completing the form and the money goes to the club Secretary at the end of the year.
I can guarantee you pretty much that the public enquiry will bring the FAC concept of 'need' and suitable circumstance into the SGC system. The days of you can have one just because are numbered now.
Honeywell said:
Ziplobb said:
ou post does not tell us how any of that stop someone with a certifcate from loading up their gun and misusing it if they are mental
There's a difference between having a shotgun in a cabinet in the wardrobe and being 5 seconds from your front door and having a shotgun at the clay ground 6 miles away which is quite possibly closed and from which you should not be seen removing your gun. You'd have to get in the car, get it issued and get back to start shooting your neighbours and family and at the very least if you're intoxicated or in a rage this is going to be a challenge and time to cool down.If all I used a shotgun for was clay shooting then I would have no trouble with keeping it at their gun room. Going to be a lot less bother than buying a cabinet and drilling the walls at home etc.
I clay shoot on a regular basis on my club and 2 other play n play venues, and none of them have a gun room with the ability to store.
Honeywell said:
There's a difference between having a shotgun in a cabinet in the wardrobe and being 5 seconds from your front door and having a shotgun at the clay ground 6 miles away which is quite possibly closed and from which you should not be seen removing your gun. You'd have to get in the car, get it issued and get back to start shooting your neighbours and family and at the very least if you're intoxicated or in a rage this is going to be a challenge and time to cool down.
If all I used a shotgun for was clay shooting then I would have no trouble with keeping it at their gun room. Going to be a lot less bother than buying a cabinet and drilling the walls at home etc.
If you were a clay shooter you would more than likely enjoy taking your gun to enjoy different clay grounds across the country, perhaps different disciplines that different grounds have to offer, Skeet, DTL, Sporting, etc. Hardly practicable if your gun is locked up in your small club 6 miles away that only opens once a week.If all I used a shotgun for was clay shooting then I would have no trouble with keeping it at their gun room. Going to be a lot less bother than buying a cabinet and drilling the walls at home etc.
Honeywell said:
Good point. However a 21yr old in a housing association flat is not the same as a 21yr old living in a farm cottage setting. It just isn't. He's got nowhere to shoot the gun and isn't an active clay ground club. What can he do with the shotgun?
He’s not 21, but a mate of mine lives in a council flat, has permissions over hundreds (probably thousands) of acres, and is more of a country boy than anyone I know. Council does not equal “mentally ill”.Gassing Station | Sports | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff