The PH Gun Cabinet - Shooting Matters
Discussion
Honeywell said:
This guy had no permissions to shoot over anybody's land. Frankly if he contacted me or any other farmer I know of the answer would have been NO just be glancing at him. So, absent of any land with permission to shoot over and absent of any club membership history what exactly can this new applicant use a shotgun for?
Nothing good.
As for small little volunteer clubs not wanting the hassle of filling out a form attesting to a years attendance of more than six visits and general sound conduct whilst shooting - you make that hassle a fundraising opportunity by making the applicant pay £100 fee for completing the form and the money goes to the club Secretary at the end of the year.
I can guarantee you pretty much that the public enquiry will bring the FAC concept of 'need' and suitable circumstance into the SGC system. The days of you can have one just because are numbered now.
You don’t need to be a club member to shoot at a number of clay grounds or even be invited to shoot by a friend who has access to land. Nothing good.
As for small little volunteer clubs not wanting the hassle of filling out a form attesting to a years attendance of more than six visits and general sound conduct whilst shooting - you make that hassle a fundraising opportunity by making the applicant pay £100 fee for completing the form and the money goes to the club Secretary at the end of the year.
I can guarantee you pretty much that the public enquiry will bring the FAC concept of 'need' and suitable circumstance into the SGC system. The days of you can have one just because are numbered now.
Forget about applying ‘need’ to this situation as it isn’t in law, nor does it look likely right now.
It’s a crap situation but thankfully we seldom have these issues so the majority of the 1.4 million shotguns out there are behaving themselves in their own locked cabinets and not bothering anyone.
Article in the telegraph suggesting that police will start alcohol and drug testing applicants, don't know how that's going to go on my home visit, sitting at the dining table with the FEO going through the paperwork while sitting next to 2 draft beer machines. Last time I checked alcohol was legal, wasn't it? Am I going to have to become tee-total if I want an FAC? Looks like more clutching a straws and doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff.
Honeywell said:
If all I used a shotgun for was clay shooting then I would have no trouble with keeping it at their gun room. .
Where are these gunrooms on shooting grounds then ? in the middle of a field somewhere remote away from a built up area ? Take it from me guns in cabinets at the home of the owner are far more secure than in an unmanned box in the middle of nowhere. A magnet for 
s, bank robbers, drug dealers and wanna be terrorists.KingNothing said:
Article in the telegraph suggesting that police will start alcohol and drug testing applicants, don't know how that's going to go on my home visit, sitting at the dining table with the FEO going through the paperwork while sitting next to 2 draft beer machines….
When I moved house I had a visit to see cabinet & was applying for a new rifle. I invited them into living room & we set about discussing stuff. After a while I was asked about my alcohol consumption which I answered truthfully was occasional & usually with friends, “so what about these vodka & malt whisky bottles?” the guy asked. I’d had a party a couple of weekends before & moved them off the table to clear & wipe down, forgetting about them as they were on the other side of a table in a room I occasionally used! Fortunately they saw the funny side.Honeywell said:
This guy had no permissions to shoot over anybody's land. Frankly if he contacted me or any other farmer I know of the answer would have been NO just be glancing at him. So, absent of any land with permission to shoot over and absent of any club membership history what exactly can this new applicant use a shotgun for?
Nothing good.
As for small little volunteer clubs not wanting the hassle of filling out a form attesting to a years attendance of more than six visits and general sound conduct whilst shooting - you make that hassle a fundraising opportunity by making the applicant pay £100 fee for completing the form and the money goes to the club Secretary at the end of the year.
I can guarantee you pretty much that the public enquiry will bring the FAC concept of 'need' and suitable circumstance into the SGC system. The days of you can have one just because are numbered now.
Many of the people I've seen at clay grounds look far more unhinged than he did, so I'm not sure what psychic powers you have Nothing good.
As for small little volunteer clubs not wanting the hassle of filling out a form attesting to a years attendance of more than six visits and general sound conduct whilst shooting - you make that hassle a fundraising opportunity by making the applicant pay £100 fee for completing the form and the money goes to the club Secretary at the end of the year.
I can guarantee you pretty much that the public enquiry will bring the FAC concept of 'need' and suitable circumstance into the SGC system. The days of you can have one just because are numbered now.
(And as for the farmers round where I live... 
).So are you talking of the clubs storing the guns? Or just processing paperwork? And what accountability are they then taking?
If clubs are to store guns, they are going to need different sort of facilities.
I'm not sure that any of the measures you note really address the episode we've just seen - if he's that much of a whack job he could quite easily have gone to get his gun and turned it on anyone present there.
I'd be happy to pay more for a certificate IF that money went towards significantly better checks (not sure I even got a call, let alone a visit, on my last renewal).
I was also surprised to hear that he'd had his certificate revoked and only returned a couple of months prior to this incident. I'd be happy with a "no return ever" policy on certificates - you do something sufficient that your SGC is revoked, it never ever comes back to you and your gun(s) get recovered and resold (proceeds to the victims funds).
Of course that might also not have stopped this cretin killing a load of people...at which point no doubt we'd all have to lodge our kitchen knives at Tesco
I'll be surprised if changes aren't made as a result of them looking into this. Hopefully they'll focus on efficacy more than anything else.
KingNothing said:
Going to potentially buy a cabinet tomorrow if the local shop has the one I want in stock, going to finally send of for my FAC by the end of this month, just need to decide on what I want and ammunition quantities, everything else is already filled in on the form.
You’ve probably researched already but, consider where you are to be locating it, some prefer hinge to be be on opposite side to the wall it’s being fixed to, making it harder to lever open with a crowbar. (Left hand hinges are avail but a wee bit more expensive). For this reason a bigger cabinet than you need is easier to operate (& soon isn’t bigger than you need as you get more!). I like my latest Brattonsound. Single key door with bank vault style door bolts give a really solid feel & lot less faff than two key safes. I just got my RFD to get mine, which is the way Brattonsound operate.You'll never reduce gun crime to zero BUT given how rare these types of incident (with legally held guns) are, I believe the current laws are fit for purpose.
As I have said previously, if as a society we decide that we have to keep deadly weapons locked up at a club then logically golf clubs, performance 'track' cars and anything else that has or could be used to kill someone will also have to be licensed and locked up too. We can't have people keeping golf clubs at home when they could be used to beat someone to death with (blunt instruments far outnumber shootings, even including illegal guns) and golfers far outnumber sporting shooters...
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-wes...
As ever, a tiny number of bad people do terrible things; we can never stop that. Current laws balance civil rights with the safety of the public. In this particular case I think the law/system was badly applied as arguably he wasn't a suitable person to own a gun. That's the failing of those who applied/enforced the law, not the law itself...if we need to make changes it's there (i.e. better trained and funded FEOs etc.).
As I have said previously, if as a society we decide that we have to keep deadly weapons locked up at a club then logically golf clubs, performance 'track' cars and anything else that has or could be used to kill someone will also have to be licensed and locked up too. We can't have people keeping golf clubs at home when they could be used to beat someone to death with (blunt instruments far outnumber shootings, even including illegal guns) and golfers far outnumber sporting shooters...
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-wes...
As ever, a tiny number of bad people do terrible things; we can never stop that. Current laws balance civil rights with the safety of the public. In this particular case I think the law/system was badly applied as arguably he wasn't a suitable person to own a gun. That's the failing of those who applied/enforced the law, not the law itself...if we need to make changes it's there (i.e. better trained and funded FEOs etc.).
Murph7355 said:
I was also surprised to hear that he'd had his certificate revoked and only returned a couple of months prior to this incident. I'd be happy with a "no return ever" policy on certificates - you do something sufficient that your SGC is revoked, it never ever comes back to you and your gun(s) get recovered and resold (proceeds to the victims funds).
Don't agree with that, there needs to be an appeal process.For example, I know someone that had his guns removed because of a vindictive wife making accusations to the police after seperation as she wanted to spoil the fact that he was getting on with his life after they split and she wasn't, having left him for someone else which didn't last very long.
It took him a long while to get his FAC back, and only after the divorce in court where it was recorded as to what she'd been doing with regards other stuff which the Police accepted.
Honeywell said:
If your reason for a certificate is to shoot clays at a clay ground then store the gun at the clay ground. Clay grounds without gun rooms will soon get one built if the law suddenly requires loads of members to store guns there.
.
You conveniently miss the point about a lot of clay shooters taking their gun around different clay grounds. Many small local clubs only open once a week. How does that work? .
Also, no way can small member run clubs afford to build dedicated gun storage with all the CCTV required etc.
You enact that, you kill the sport.
chemistry said:
In this particular case I think the law/system was badly applied as arguably he wasn't a suitable person to own a gun. That's the failing of those who applied/enforced the law, not the law itself..
But that was exactly the same situation with both Hungerford and Dunblane..........and it didn't stop them banning stuff instead.Its the easy option after all...and we all know polly-thickuns always take the easy option.
Honeywell said:
Clay grounds without gun rooms will soon get one built if the law suddenly requires loads of members to store guns there.
Alternatively a new applicant could be required to join a clay club and hire a gun for the first 12 months to demonstrate a sustained interest in the sport. Keeping a record of receipts for rounds purchased/clays shot.
1. No they won’t. There are too many that are so remote and in ramshackle premises that the police wouldn’t sign off on the safety and security aspect. There’d be a massive hike in insurance premiums and far more record keeping and behind the scenes paperwork than current so it would just force a lot to close. Alternatively a new applicant could be required to join a clay club and hire a gun for the first 12 months to demonstrate a sustained interest in the sport. Keeping a record of receipts for rounds purchased/clays shot.
2. Why 12 months, why not 6 or 3 or 18 or forever? Gun fit with shotguns is particularly important and what fits one will not necessarily shoot well for another. Also the clubs would be required to have far more shotguns than they currently hold to cover all members without SGCs. This would increase costs and make it prohibitive for quite a few grounds to continue.
I acknowledge it’s easy to knock ideas and at least you’re coming up with suggestions rather than a chunk of social media scrotes and their ‘ban it’ tweets. If you’re genuine and not trolling then please just take some time to do a little research and further understand how this part of the sport works.
Shooting as a whole contributes in the region of £2.5bn to the UK economy, shotguns aren’t about to disappear overnight…
Honeywell said:
Clay grounds without gun rooms will soon get one built if the law suddenly requires loads of members to store guns there.
No they won't, they will simply close. Only one of the 3 I use is a big enough commercial operation to possibly do that, but it's also the furthest away (an hour's drive)You really don't have a clue do you, outside of your own little bubble.
Honeywell said:
No. I'm not saying that. Your reason for the certificate is to shoot over water you have permission for as a syndicate member. Fine, have a gun cabinet.
If your reason for a certificate is to shoot clays at a clay ground then store the gun at the clay ground. Clay grounds without gun rooms will soon get one built if the law suddenly requires loads of members to store guns there.
Do you think that most clay grounds have the funds to build and maintain a secure gun storage facility? My local club is basically a wooden shed in the middle of nowhere, so to say we should store shotguns there because "safer" is laughable at best. If anything it is likely to increase the likelihood that more shotguns will be stolen from remote, unmanned locations even if they build secure storage facilities, but hey at least you are "doing something". LOLIf your reason for a certificate is to shoot clays at a clay ground then store the gun at the clay ground. Clay grounds without gun rooms will soon get one built if the law suddenly requires loads of members to store guns there.
Then a new applicant would have to join a large commercial clay ground with a gun room. After a couple of years hey can apply to have a home storage variation so he can use the closer cheaper shed based clay ground having demonstrated that he is a committed clay shooter.
Not that he just fancies having a pump action 12 bore because.
Not that he just fancies having a pump action 12 bore because.
Honeywell said:
Then a new applicant would have to join a large commercial clay ground with a gun room. After a couple of years hey can apply to have a home storage variation so he can use the closer cheaper shed based clay ground having demonstrated that he is a committed clay shooter.
Not that he just fancies having a pump action 12 bore because.
How many "large commercial clay grounds" large and secure enough to store hundreds of guns do you think there are in the UK?Not that he just fancies having a pump action 12 bore because.
We've already been over this and the idea of storing huge quantities of guns at clubs was considered and dismissed back in the pistol ban days, so I suggest you drop this idea.
You really don't understand this subject so you might want to consider moving your discussion to another thread because this one is supposed to be about shooting sports.
FurtiveFreddy said:
Honeywell said:
Then a new applicant would have to join a large commercial clay ground with a gun room. After a couple of years hey can apply to have a home storage variation so he can use the closer cheaper shed based clay ground having demonstrated that he is a committed clay shooter.
Not that he just fancies having a pump action 12 bore because.
How many "large commercial clay grounds" large and secure enough to store hundreds of guns do you think there are in the UK?Not that he just fancies having a pump action 12 bore because.
We've already been over this and the idea of storing huge quantities of guns at clubs was considered and dismissed back in the pistol ban days, so I suggest you drop this idea.
You really don't understand this subject so you might want to consider moving your discussion to another thread because this one is supposed to be about shooting sports.
As per the other thread, maybe it would be better for all that he moves on as it is not going anywhere quickly
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