The Swimming Thread - Pool/OW

[RobM77]

I thought I make a small contribution. I used to be a very keen runner, but turned to swimming when I injured my knees. Like a few on this thread, I was getting completely out of breath after 25-50m and had to stop for a minute or so before continuing, which was ridiculous given at the time I could run a half marathon in 90 minutes. I was just utterly hopeless. I then had coaching in 'Total Immersion' and it completely transformed my swimming - I can now swim long distances without an issue, and I'm a lot faster, but using far less energy. All these benefits are from being taught technique, rather than building my strength and I don't even do drills or intervals etc. The basic idea is that water is 800 times denser than air, so streamlining is of major importance. It took a while - I had one to one lessons with underwater cameras once a week for about two years until I was what I would call proficient at it.

In response to the poster who mentioned the cold in OW, yes, this is a major issue for many people, me included. I windsurf twice a week, SUP and occasionally surf, all in the UK and from May to Dec/Jan so I'm used to open water, but even with a wetsuit on I find lake swimming very difficult much below 21/22 degrees C water temperature (which is reached in UK lakes only in the central summer months). It's ultimately the reason why I gave up OW swimming. I used to go twice a week after work and do a mile each time, but it always took me several minutes of acclimatisation before I could swim properly and it took me a long time afterwards to warm up again. After slogging it out for a year or two trying to build up a resistance I ultimately just packed it in. Bear in mind also the UK Tri rules for temperature and wearing a wetsuit seem to assume you're a seal, so competing it Tris is a complete non starter for many people due to that anyway.

[boyse7en]

No particular reason for posting, except for me to look back on in the future, but did a PB 1000m this morning before work 20:08.
I obviously need to work on my technique as I was blowing out of my posterior by the end

[boyse7en]

Done it: This morning cracked the 20min mark with a 19:34 1000m. Taken a long time to get there, but I'm now about 4-5 mins quicker than I was

[Mopey]

Guys I'm swimming a 10k in a pool in two weeks and after some advice.
Yesterday swam 250 lengths and cramped BADLY. did it in 2hrs 10.
What would you recommend for nutrition etc.

[RobM77]

Mopey said:

Guys I'm swimming a 10k in a pool in two weeks and after some advice.
Yesterday swam 250 lengths and cramped BADLY. did it in 2hrs 10.
What would you recommend for nutrition etc.

To prevent cramp nutritionally, salt is what you need, but primarily I'd recommend kicking less hard. I swim a lot faster than I used to before TI training and I only do a two beat kick now. Most of your leg movement will just slow you down and lots of kicking only really reaps benefits over very short distances. For a 10K you want to stay calm, streamlined and graceful, with only a tiny kick and you'll be surprised how fast you can go.

[Otispunkmeyer]

RobM77 said:

Mopey said:

Guys I'm swimming a 10k in a pool in two weeks and after some advice.
Yesterday swam 250 lengths and cramped BADLY. did it in 2hrs 10.
What would you recommend for nutrition etc.

To prevent cramp nutritionally, salt is what you need, but primarily I'd recommend kicking less hard. I swim a lot faster than I used to before TI training and I only do a two beat kick now. Most of your leg movement will just slow you down and lots of kicking only really reaps benefits over very short distances. For a 10K you want to stay calm, streamlined and graceful, with only a tiny kick and you'll be surprised how fast you can go.

Yeah you need fluids. I normally use standard cordial with a little salt. I thought on a 10 k they have a drink/feed station for this purpose? its a long time to be in the water.

For distance, you simply do not want to be kicking. They're the biggest muscles in the body and they'll use the most of your resources. As mentioned.... a 2 beat kick, with just enough effort to keep your feet and hips up. Harder than it sounds if you haven't got the core strength to keep the body straight and haven't got the speed to keep the body aloft in the water. Once the hips sink its a vicious cycle of more drag, greater energy expenditure, tiring, hips dropping, more drag.

Also with the arms, bent elbows on the pull and keep the elbows nice and high. A less powerful position for the arm in terms of how much force you can apply, but greatly reduces the drag incident on the arms and shoulders. Distance swimming is all about minimising drag because it will get you.

[Mopey]

Otispunkmeyer said:

RobM77 said:

Mopey said:

Guys I'm swimming a 10k in a pool in two weeks and after some advice.
Yesterday swam 250 lengths and cramped BADLY. did it in 2hrs 10.
What would you recommend for nutrition etc.

To prevent cramp nutritionally, salt is what you need, but primarily I'd recommend kicking less hard. I swim a lot faster than I used to before TI training and I only do a two beat kick now. Most of your leg movement will just slow you down and lots of kicking only really reaps benefits over very short distances. For a 10K you want to stay calm, streamlined and graceful, with only a tiny kick and you'll be surprised how fast you can go.

Yeah you need fluids. I normally use standard cordial with a little salt. I thought on a 10 k they have a drink/feed station for this purpose? its a long time to be in the water.

For distance, you simply do not want to be kicking. They're the biggest muscles in the body and they'll use the most of your resources. As mentioned.... a 2 beat kick, with just enough effort to keep your feet and hips up. Harder than it sounds if you haven't got the core strength to keep the body straight and haven't got the speed to keep the body aloft in the water. Once the hips sink its a vicious cycle of more drag, greater energy expenditure, tiring, hips dropping, more drag.

Also with the arms, bent elbows on the pull and keep the elbows nice and high. A less powerful position for the arm in terms of how much force you can apply, but greatly reduces the drag incident on the arms and shoulders. Distance swimming is all about minimising drag because it will get you.

Hi Chaps, thanks for that, I will have to provide my own fluids etc, I am doing it off my own back at a local pool to raise some money for a charity- so not an official event.
I will have a look at this 2 beat kick, would you change the number of breaths per stroke for such a distance.

My SWOLF is normally around 38 but last week on my 250 it dropped to 42, so I was struggling to swim on pace, the cramps at 230 nearly wrote me off!

[RobM77]

Mopey said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

RobM77 said:

Mopey said:

Guys I'm swimming a 10k in a pool in two weeks and after some advice.
Yesterday swam 250 lengths and cramped BADLY. did it in 2hrs 10.
What would you recommend for nutrition etc.

To prevent cramp nutritionally, salt is what you need, but primarily I'd recommend kicking less hard. I swim a lot faster than I used to before TI training and I only do a two beat kick now. Most of your leg movement will just slow you down and lots of kicking only really reaps benefits over very short distances. For a 10K you want to stay calm, streamlined and graceful, with only a tiny kick and you'll be surprised how fast you can go.

Yeah you need fluids. I normally use standard cordial with a little salt. I thought on a 10 k they have a drink/feed station for this purpose? its a long time to be in the water.

For distance, you simply do not want to be kicking. They're the biggest muscles in the body and they'll use the most of your resources. As mentioned.... a 2 beat kick, with just enough effort to keep your feet and hips up. Harder than it sounds if you haven't got the core strength to keep the body straight and haven't got the speed to keep the body aloft in the water. Once the hips sink its a vicious cycle of more drag, greater energy expenditure, tiring, hips dropping, more drag.

Also with the arms, bent elbows on the pull and keep the elbows nice and high. A less powerful position for the arm in terms of how much force you can apply, but greatly reduces the drag incident on the arms and shoulders. Distance swimming is all about minimising drag because it will get you.

Hi Chaps, thanks for that, I will have to provide my own fluids etc, I am doing it off my own back at a local pool to raise some money for a charity- so not an official event.
I will have a look at this 2 beat kick, would you change the number of breaths per stroke for such a distance.

My SWOLF is normally around 38 but last week on my 250 it dropped to 42, so I was struggling to swim on pace, the cramps at 230 nearly wrote me off!

The 2BK isn't linked to the number of breaths per stroke you take, that will be personal preference. Psychologically the 2BK doesn't feel like a kick to do, it feels just like a little flick each time you switch sides. The objective of the 2BK is to help you rotate, rather than kick you forwards. It's surprising how much of your propulsion comes from core strength and rotating timing - in my last coaching session we worked on hip timing and I shaved 2 or 3 seconds off my 100 metre timing from that alone.

One thing to note if you're working on your kicking is that often what feels like a tiny flick can actually be a huge kick. One of the problems with swimming is that you can't see yourself doing it, which is why I'm such an advocate of underwater filming - coaches above the surface can't really see your kick properly.

[Dimski]

Echoing what Rob and Otis have said, really.

I've done quite a few loooong pool sessions when I got annoyed by the Jellyfish swimming in the sea training for a 15km in 2014. (And 7 mile one during a long distance triathlon this year.)

I've suffered cramp in the calves quite often during these longer pool ones, often just after pushing off from the wall. So, a smooth more gentle push from the wall helps prevent it for me.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Re breathing I'd breathe twos. And make sure to switch sides every so often. In training, I'll do bi-lateral and breathe 3s for anything up to 200. After that. Twos and switch side each length. Important on distance to get the air in to keep the lactic acid away.

Watch sun yang do his 1500. Sometimes he even breathes ones going into the turns.

[FunkyNige]

Does anyone use a watch to record their training sessions?
I've been away from swimming for about a year but just getting back into it now and the pool I'm now swimming in now is attached to a gym rather than a 'proper' pool so doesn't have a pace clock, etc. and as a result I'm losing track of how far and fast I'm swimming. I've got a little lap counter I put on my finger but it's stopped counting properly. I'm also a bit of a nerd and like to keep track of these things, I've had a running watch for years and seem to spend more time looking at my segment times than actually running....
If anyone uses one do they find it useful? I'm thinking of watches like the Garmin Swim or Vivoactive.

[RobM77]

FunkyNige said:

Does anyone use a watch to record their training sessions?
I've been away from swimming for about a year but just getting back into it now and the pool I'm now swimming in now is attached to a gym rather than a 'proper' pool so doesn't have a pace clock, etc. and as a result I'm losing track of how far and fast I'm swimming. I've got a little lap counter I put on my finger but it's stopped counting properly. I'm also a bit of a nerd and like to keep track of these things, I've had a running watch for years and seem to spend more time looking at my segment times than actually running....
If anyone uses one do they find it useful? I'm thinking of watches like the Garmin Swim or Vivoactive.

Yes, I have a FINIS swimming watch and love it. It records strokes per length, pace per 100, lengths swum etc. I always lose count, so I find it essential. Swimming's an odd sport in that often when you think you're going quick you're going slow and vice versa, so I find measuring my performance really enlightening and it helps me to improve. My only criticism is that the battery doesn't last very long and I'm always forgetting to recharge it.

[Mopey]

So I completed my swim back in Nov. Forgot to update. Did 400 lengths in 3 hours 36. Keeping on topic I use a vivoactive and find it brilliant. Was good for running too when I managed that.

[bluelightbabe]

FunkyNige said:

Does anyone use a watch to record their training sessions?
I've been away from swimming for about a year but just getting back into it now and the pool I'm now swimming in now is attached to a gym rather than a 'proper' pool so doesn't have a pace clock, etc. and as a result I'm losing track of how far and fast I'm swimming. I've got a little lap counter I put on my finger but it's stopped counting properly. I'm also a bit of a nerd and like to keep track of these things, I've had a running watch for years and seem to spend more time looking at my segment times than actually running....
If anyone uses one do they find it useful? I'm thinking of watches like the Garmin Swim or Vivoactive.

I use a Swimovate Poolmate. I bought it to see how I was improving really, but it's handy for counting lengths. You can upload swims onto your computer and check your progress.

Sometimes it's a length or two out - if I don't turn properly it doesn't always count the length. As long as I do a long enough glide off the wall though it's ok. it also gets confused if I'm swimming front crawl and have to change to breast stroke mid-length as I've caught up with the swimmer in front. It sometimes counts that as a new length.

[Otispunkmeyer]

I've had a quite surprising start to the year really.

An event just before christmas and one in the first week of the new year and I managed to take some significant time off my 100 IM. I got close to going 62 seconds for the 100 IM in January, so my aim this year is to do just that. I was only 2 tenths away. The last two times I swam this I did 63.8 and before that high 64 was a good swim, 65 an average one. Not sure where this extra pace has come from! But I must be doing something right.

I even managed a half second off my 50 backstroke. Reliably in the 29's for that now, which is pleasing. Again, aim is to continue. I'd like to get that down into the 28's. Its looking good right now as well. In training I've been doing a lot of hard sets and sprint sets back stroke and its becoming routine to post a mid 2:30's time on 200 m repeats and mid-teens on 100s without too much difficulty. And last time I did a 100 fast from a push (at the end of sprint session) I manage a 66, which isn't too far away from what I did in my last actual race. So high hopes for this year.

[boyse7en]

New pb for the 1000m has cheered me up.
19:11s this morning, breathing threes until the final 200m, when I breathe twos.

That's it now for me until Swimathon on Saturday.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Last outing was a tough one.

Had been on a 30 mile cycle just before and got taken up some horrible hills.

Needless to say, last turn on the 100 back felt like my legs were going to melt. The pain! Wasn't a complete loss though. Managed to go 64 barely kicking down the last length.

Never doing that again.

Last nights session was fun, though its left me aching today.

12 x 50 max effort on 4 minutes. Sounds easy, but by the 6th one that 4 minutes comes round far too fast. By 10 I was starting to feel a bit ill. But managed to keep the speed fast (and the vomit down).

[BoRED S2upid]

I'm just about to complete the swim22 charity swim for Diabetes UK. Anyone else doing / done it? Basically it's 22 miles the width of the English Chanel as quick or slow as you like. It's taken me 6 weeks mostly doing 100m / 2.0x pace quickest was 100m/1.41. Never done this much swimming before but it's been a good challenge and very well organised there is a leaderboard to 'compete' against others / monitor your progress. I should raise £200 for them.

My right shoulder has suffered a bit I only breathe on my right side having read some tips on here alternating would probably help this but it's not natural for me breathing left sided.

[bluelightbabe]

boyse7en said:

New pb for the 1000m has cheered me up.
19:11s this morning, breathing threes until the final 200m, when I breathe twos.

That's it now for me until Swimathon on Saturday.

Good luck! I haven't done much training for it recently but am hoping to get a similar time to last year (1hr 44 mins).

BoRED S2upid said:

I'm just about to complete the swim22 charity swim for Diabetes UK. Anyone else doing / done it? Basically it's 22 miles the width of the English Chanel as quick or slow as you like. It's taken me 6 weeks mostly doing 100m / 2.0x pace quickest was 100m/1.41. Never done this much swimming before but it's been a good challenge and very well organised there is a leaderboard to 'compete' against others / monitor your progress. I should raise £200 for them.

My right shoulder has suffered a bit I only breathe on my right side having read some tips on here alternating would probably help this but it's not natural for me breathing left sided.

I'm doing it as well. I'm a bit behind than planned at the moment as I have recently had a few weeks of not being able to swim because of work commitments. I'm back on track now though, and a 5km Swimathon for Marie Curie on Saturday will help me too (is it wrong to use one charity swim to help me get some lengths in for another charity?!).

I did a channel swim at the end of last year for Aspire, the spinal injuries charity. Identical to the Diabetes UK one in distance/time to complete. I swim anyway so it's not really a challenge for me, but it does encourage people to get in the pool if they have a target to aim for.

[BoRED S2upid]

bluelightbabe said:

boyse7en said:

New pb for the 1000m has cheered me up.
19:11s this morning, breathing threes until the final 200m, when I breathe twos.

That's it now for me until Swimathon on Saturday.

Good luck! I haven't done much training for it recently but am hoping to get a similar time to last year (1hr 44 mins).

BoRED S2upid said:

I'm just about to complete the swim22 charity swim for Diabetes UK. Anyone else doing / done it? Basically it's 22 miles the width of the English Chanel as quick or slow as you like. It's taken me 6 weeks mostly doing 100m / 2.0x pace quickest was 100m/1.41. Never done this much swimming before but it's been a good challenge and very well organised there is a leaderboard to 'compete' against others / monitor your progress. I should raise £200 for them.

My right shoulder has suffered a bit I only breathe on my right side having read some tips on here alternating would probably help this but it's not natural for me breathing left sided.

I'm doing it as well. I'm a bit behind than planned at the moment as I have recently had a few weeks of not being able to swim because of work commitments. I'm back on track now though, and a 5km Swimathon for Marie Curie on Saturday will help me too (is it wrong to use one charity swim to help me get some lengths in for another charity?!).

I did a channel swim at the end of last year for Aspire, the spinal injuries charity. Identical to the Diabetes UK one in distance/time to complete. I swim anyway so it's not really a challenge for me, but it does encourage people to get in the pool if they have a target to aim for.

I thought there might be some others on here doing swim22. Don't see a problem counting the 5k towards the bigger total it's all swimming.