The Swimming Thread - Pool/OW

[RobM77]

Otispunkmeyer said:

RobM77 said:

Jambo85 said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

If sore shoulders are getting you already I would suggest you might have something a bit out of whack with your stroke that is putting too much strain on the shoulder. That or your shoulder muscles just need time to adapt.

Yes I think that must be it - went for a relatively sedate swim on Friday morning, my right shoulder was giving a twinge right at the end of my stroke. I think maybe I have been trying to stroke too far. I reduced that and it felt OK. I had been going as far as my John Thomas but by stopping more like the top of my shorts it felt a lot better, and I don't think it cost me any efficiency.

Your last point is also relevant I am sure, I've gone from doing next to no exercise in the last few years (particularly nothing involving arms and shoulders) to doing what most people would consider quite a lot of swimming fairly quickly.

I don't know about standard technique, but with TI we are taught to put our arm out in front of us straight, but loose, and let the water support it; no stretching and no straining. Obviously the catch involves muscular power, but if your muscles are tense when they don't need to be it only zaps power and increases your chance of injury.

Echo Rob here. Arm out in front and rotate the body into it so you extend the reach forward. But it is a relaxed position, you should be able to effectively have the hand supported by the water moving over/under your hand. like a wing. On the catch, high elbows, palm of hand facing back, pull back whilst making a shallow S motion. Please do extend the end of the stroke past your hip, we pull all the way back past the top of the trunks/shorts, starting the recovery just beyond the hip. The hand is travelling quite fast so keeping it in the water to do work is key. You will be losing efficiency by not stroking all the way through. If it felt like you didn't then there is something not right elsewhere further up the stroke. Really from the start of the catch, to the end of the stroke, the arm should be constantly accelerating... applying force (good old F=MA). The shallow S motion is to help with holding onto water.

I had a look at TI style swimming. Looks like slow-motion and the body looked very low in the water. But it is extremely smooth and that is where good speed starts. I guess more typical swimming would take that as the base and try to speed it up... get higher in the water and get the arms and legs moving. Of course splashing will occur but trying to keep the form of TI as best you can would seem like a good way to progress.

I think my stroke must be TI like as I have always had comments about how easy my swimming looks, how it looks like I am not trying, being lazy. Well, my HR says otherwise. Its bloody hard work maintaining a long, smooth stroke!

The speed isn't obvious when you watch a video of TI on You Tube, like the famous Shinji video, but if you time him then you'll find that he's not hanging around. Sun Yang is another one to watch - he holds multiple world records and uses a very TI-like stroke. Yes, absolutely, you can add more pull or a different kick to go faster if you wish, but that would still be TI. I learnt a 2BK for long distance swimming (it's actually all I can do due to a leg injury), but my coach has taught right down to 50m swimmers using TI, who I assume are doing a different kick!

I've never seen a true TI swimmer splash or produce any bubbles, no matter how quick, but again I'm not the person to ask as I'm merely learning the technique - my coach could give a more definitive answer. Sun Yang obviously splashes a bit. I've just got some video of me swimming in a pool for the first time (up till now it's been in an endless pool) and I have a few bubbles around my feet, but that's because my 2BK is too big - it's something I need to work on.

The height in the water is probably a bit of an illusion really caused by two things: 1) what a TI swimmer will try to do is be completely flat like an arrow and I think that probably just looks lower around the head and shoulders, compared to someone with poorer form. 2) The head should hang in the water, and not be strained, looking forward etc, so it'll look lower. This is my bad habit and I keep getting reminded of it! The reason I say it's an illusion is that the actual height of a person's CofG in the water is just a function of their buoyancy, and can't be altered by a stroke. The only thing that will change the height is if you suffer the drag of an angle of attack and then swim mega-fast to get lift in that way, but I think that sort of thing is the preserve of very quick 50m swimmers.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 14th March 22:48

[Jambo85]

Thanks for the pointers.

Need someone to watch me and tell me what I'm doing wrong. I'll need to go for a lunchtime session - there's an old boy there most days who allegedly used to swim for Scotland and is now a Patches O'Houlihan type character who enjoys coaching everyone in the most insulting ways possible. In his mid 80s and swims 2km 3 or 4 times a week.

Edited by Jambo85 on Wednesday 21st March 12:34

[Jambo85]

Otispunkmeyer said:

RobM77 said:

I don't know about standard technique, but with TI we are taught to put our arm out in front of us straight, but loose, and let the water support it; no stretching and no straining. Obviously the catch involves muscular power, but if your muscles are tense when they don't need to be it only zaps power and increases your chance of injury.

Echo Rob here. Arm out in front and rotate the body into it so you extend the reach forward. But it is a relaxed position, you should be able to effectively have the hand supported by the water moving over/under your hand. like a wing. On the catch, high elbows, palm of hand facing back, pull back whilst making a shallow S motion. Please do extend the end of the stroke past your hip, we pull all the way back past the top of the trunks/shorts, starting the recovery just beyond the hip. The hand is travelling quite fast so keeping it in the water to do work is key.

Been really thinking about this the last couple of swims - fells a lot easier and my shoulder also seems to have recovered so think that must have been it. Many thanks.

I was fairly nipping on with the pull buoy today. Is there a stage you should get to before giving paddles a go?

[RobM77]

Jambo85 said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

RobM77 said:

I don't know about standard technique, but with TI we are taught to put our arm out in front of us straight, but loose, and let the water support it; no stretching and no straining. Obviously the catch involves muscular power, but if your muscles are tense when they don't need to be it only zaps power and increases your chance of injury.

Echo Rob here. Arm out in front and rotate the body into it so you extend the reach forward. But it is a relaxed position, you should be able to effectively have the hand supported by the water moving over/under your hand. like a wing. On the catch, high elbows, palm of hand facing back, pull back whilst making a shallow S motion. Please do extend the end of the stroke past your hip, we pull all the way back past the top of the trunks/shorts, starting the recovery just beyond the hip. The hand is travelling quite fast so keeping it in the water to do work is key.

Been really thinking about this the last couple of swims - fells a lot easier and my shoulder also seems to have recovered so think that must have been it. Many thanks.

I was fairly nipping on with the pull buoy today. Is there a stage you should get to before giving paddles a go?

Again, TI doesn't advocate the use of any swimming aids at all, so I couldn't advise there. If you're interested in an overview of TI, have a look at the TI UK website (if you're in the UK that is) for their introductory courses called "Effortless Endurance". I went on one as a recap in February after five years away from swimming and found it really good - most attendees on my course had no prior TI knowledge. It's an awful lot to cover in one day (I spent three years learning it intensively), but you couldn't fail to come away with lots of positive things.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Jambo85 said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

RobM77 said:

I don't know about standard technique, but with TI we are taught to put our arm out in front of us straight, but loose, and let the water support it; no stretching and no straining. Obviously the catch involves muscular power, but if your muscles are tense when they don't need to be it only zaps power and increases your chance of injury.

Echo Rob here. Arm out in front and rotate the body into it so you extend the reach forward. But it is a relaxed position, you should be able to effectively have the hand supported by the water moving over/under your hand. like a wing. On the catch, high elbows, palm of hand facing back, pull back whilst making a shallow S motion. Please do extend the end of the stroke past your hip, we pull all the way back past the top of the trunks/shorts, starting the recovery just beyond the hip. The hand is travelling quite fast so keeping it in the water to do work is key.

Been really thinking about this the last couple of swims - fells a lot easier and my shoulder also seems to have recovered so think that must have been it. Many thanks.

I was fairly nipping on with the pull buoy today. Is there a stage you should get to before giving paddles a go?

I'd be wary of paddles too early. You don't want to overload the shoulder and bugger it before it's ready. All throughout my swimming career we hardly used them except for some specific sets where you want to perhaps over exert the arms to get a response (like lifting heavy in the gym).

There are numerous paddle types as well. Smaller tend to be for technique as they amplify the feeling of the water on the hand. Bigger, dinner plate types are all about power development. As with heavy gym work you dont wear those ones for extended periods!!

If you don't have any paddles yet and want to try I highly recommend getting the Finis ones that have no straps at all. Extremely comfortable, and are held in place by finger/thumb pinch on recovery and by force on the hand during pull.

The way you have to hold onto them, I think, really gets you to work on a nice tight hand for entry and a relaxed hand with some finger spread for the pull. If you're doing it wrong these paddles let you know...because they'll come right off!

I have a pair of the 2 spot and 3 spot ones. I don't have massive hands, but I am 6ft 2 for reference. The twos are about as small as I can go as my fingers can extend beyond slightly. But they are comfortable to use on longer sets at that size. 3's are still technique paddles though, just bigger.

For power you go bigger still and probably strapped.

[Jambo85]

Otispunkmeyer said:

I'd be wary of paddles too early. You don't want to overload the shoulder and bugger it before it's ready.

Yeah - that's why I'm asking. I'll stick with the pull buoy for a bit longer.

Otispunkmeyer said:

The way you have to hold onto them, I think, really gets you to work on a nice tight hand for entry and a relaxed hand with some finger spread for the pull. If you're doing it wrong these paddles let you know...because they'll come right off!

I was actually interested in this as much as building power really, I'm not sure my entry/catch/pull are correct at all so I thought this would be a good way to check. Interesting you mention some finger spread during the pull; I try hard to keep my fingers together which results in them getting quite fatigued sometimes, should I try to ease them apart a little?

[SVS]

RobM77 said:

Again, TI doesn't advocate the use of any swimming aids at all ...

What about the TI Fistglove®?



'Fistglove' has got to be a contender for the Product Name of the Year

[Rich_W]

Otispunkmeyer said:

I'd be wary of paddles too early. You don't want to overload the shoulder and bugger it before it's ready. All throughout my swimming career we hardly used them except for some specific sets where you want to perhaps over exert the arms to get a response (like lifting heavy in the gym).

There are numerous paddle types as well. Smaller tend to be for technique as they amplify the feeling of the water on the hand. Bigger, dinner plate types are all about power development. As with heavy gym work you dont wear those ones for extended periods!!

If you don't have any paddles yet and want to try I highly recommend getting the Finis ones that have no straps at all. Extremely comfortable, and are held in place by finger/thumb pinch on recovery and by force on the hand during pull.

The way you have to hold onto them, I think, really gets you to work on a nice tight hand for entry and a relaxed hand with some finger spread for the pull. If you're doing it wrong these paddles let you know...because they'll come right off!

I have a pair of the 2 spot and 3 spot ones. I don't have massive hands, but I am 6ft 2 for reference. The twos are about as small as I can go as my fingers can extend beyond slightly. But they are comfortable to use on longer sets at that size. 3's are still technique paddles though, just bigger.

For power you go bigger still and probably strapped.

6,1

I use Biofuse Paddles. I would say warm up and warm down aside I use them all the time. Currently for 9k a week. So probably about 7500m with them. My swim is better than ever before I used them.



I only use the front strap on my ring and middle finger and pull it right down to just above my knuckles. If you use the rear strap its easy to develop a ste stroke. Where your hand will not go backwards , but off to the side in some way, but because the paddle is strapped to your hand you don't notice. Having a "pivot point" means that if you twist your hand during the stroke it will "slip" in the water.


Finis also make paddles for this very reason




As I swim for Triathlon, I also use a Pull Buoy 95% of the time

[dirty boy]

I've been plodding away for a few months now, but a colleague and I decided to try our hand at dolphin kicks at lunch time today...

didn't go well...just went straight downwards to the bottom of the pool and not very quick in doing so lol!



In other news, my son did what I would have said was one of his toughest ever sets last week

20 x 400m on 6 mins. Pretty tough for a 12 year old. I thought he did brillianly, 3 bailed out (you know the type...injured but not) and 1 didn't ever get in the pool when she saw the set

He wasn't getting much more than 15 seconds rest by the last few, but boshed out a 5:20 400 on his last one with some serious egging on by the coaches.

Was very proud watching that.

My 10 year old daughter got two bronzes this weekend at the County Developments or "the best of the rest" as I call them....both medals in butterfly, 100 and 200...

Onwards and upwards....

[Rich_W]

dirty boy said:

20 x 400m on 6 mins. Pretty tough for a 12 year old. .

Pretty tough for anybody!


To your son!

[SVS]

Does anyone know if there’s anything like The Race Club in the UK (i.e somewhere that runs camps or workshops focusing on swim technique for ordinary mortals)?

[Highway Star]

dirty boy said:

20 x 400m on 6 mins. Pretty tough for a 12 year old.

Well done on him for finishing, but I'd question the worth of that set, especially for someone of that age. That's like some sort of retro set from the 80s and 90s when I was a kid and I now look back and seriously wonder whether I'd have been better off with doing a lot fewer metres and not getting so bored and disillusioned with the sport. I assume it was some sort 'special one off' set like when you do 100x100 at Christmas?

I train next to the top squad at my club and they don't do anything like that meterage and they are all NAG/Senior GB qualifiers up to Commonwealth swimmers.

Anyway, my 'comeback' after four years off training is continuing, I've done a couple of competitions in recent weeks and taken a few medals in my age group and the times are pleasing given I'm only training 2x per week as opposed to 4x when I was competing previously. At the last meet I did a 400IM, 100 back and 200 free within 30 minutes which hurt a lot!

[Otispunkmeyer]

dirty boy said:

I've been plodding away for a few months now, but a colleague and I decided to try our hand at dolphin kicks at lunch time today...

didn't go well...just went straight downwards to the bottom of the pool and not very quick in doing so lol!



In other news, my son did what I would have said was one of his toughest ever sets last week

20 x 400m on 6 mins. Pretty tough for a 12 year old. I thought he did brillianly, 3 bailed out (you know the type...injured but not) and 1 didn't ever get in the pool when she saw the set

He wasn't getting much more than 15 seconds rest by the last few, but boshed out a 5:20 400 on his last one with some serious egging on by the coaches.

Was very proud watching that.

My 10 year old daughter got two bronzes this weekend at the County Developments or "the best of the rest" as I call them....both medals in butterfly, 100 and 200...

Onwards and upwards....

Good effort 20x400's... I don't think I'll ever want to return to those days though! I remember 100x100m on xmas eve... on 1.20 repeat. This is nearly 15 years ago now, the memory is still vivid.

As Highway Star says though, not sure about the worth of doing sets like that all the time. Certainly at my club back in the day we did a lot of 30, 40, 50 x 100's or 10 x 400s or 20 x 200's very regularly. I guess its for building base aerobic fitness during early teen years but when it takes up a lot of the training time I think it becomes detrimental if the coach isn't on the ball. You slack, you develop bad habits to get by and if the coach isn't on you, the habits get baked in.

For example we all used to have st turns because we'd never just practice turns and during a long set like that it quickly became easier and quicker to push off and surface than attempt 4-6 kicks each turn. A lot of us couldn't do fly kick properly so doing them was actually slower and meant missing the turn around times.

Also, if he's doing big stuff like that regular, make sure he eats well. I thought I ate enough, but looking back I must have been in calorie deficit or borderline for much of the time and I didn't grow/develop as fast as everyone else.

When I got to the University team we didn't do anything like that. I think the hardest sets we did were 21 x 100's in blocks of 7 on 1.45 at 0-10 beats below max HR. Nearly all the sessions were like that. But it was much more focused, i.e. I was there for short-middle distance back stroke and freestyle and so thats what you trained. No point slugging up and down doing 400's and 800's with the distance swimmers. Stroke mechanics different for a start and its much more anaerobic.

But I guess that is the path. Start off doing lots and everything and as you get further into your teens, you focus more on the distances and strokes you're good at or enjoy. I follow a number of high profile swimmers on Instagram and they do post up horrible sets like that from time to time (which suggests, they aren't regular occurances!).

As I've said before I'm faster now than I ever was over 50's and 100's and we don't do sets anything like 20x400's!

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Friday 20th July 13:36

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Friday 20th July 13:37

[Otispunkmeyer]

Rich_W said:

6,1

I use Biofuse Paddles. I would say warm up and warm down aside I use them all the time. Currently for 9k a week. So probably about 7500m with them. My swim is better than ever before I used them.


I only use the front strap on my ring and middle finger and pull it right down to just above my knuckles. If you use the rear strap its easy to develop a ste stroke. Where your hand will not go backwards , but off to the side in some way, but because the paddle is strapped to your hand you don't notice. Having a "pivot point" means that if you twist your hand during the stroke it will "slip" in the water.


Finis also make paddles for this very reason



As I swim for Triathlon, I also use a Pull Buoy 95% of the time

I am not a triathlete so I don't know what type of training they do but using paddles and pull buoy nearly all the time doesn't sound that smart to me! I guess the pull buoy mimics the buoyancy of the wetsuit?

A friend of mine kept using his pull buoy and big dinner plate paddles all the time because he basically couldn't swim without them. Heavy legs, no core strength and poor pull technique meant he got into the vicious cycle of legs dropping and creating more drag. It was just his way of getting round it instead of actually working on technique.

Another thing with paddles is that if any of the muscles in your shoulder aren't up to snuff you'll be placing extra burden on muscles like the tricep and pec. This will eventually give you some shoulder jip as those big muscles will eventually overpower everything and pull the shoulder out of its place creating impingement problems.

Its what I am dealing with at the moment. Whilst I didn't injure myself with paddles, it was poorer technique on the left side that led to too much exertion on the shoulder and relying on the big muscles to cover for me. Eventually the cuff muscles have weakened and the larger muscles pulled the shoulder so far forward it impinges on the nerves and tissue at the front and is really painful. Its taken me 6 months so far to fix this and its still not right.

[cwis]

Hi all!

First time poster to this thread - I'm after a bit of advice.

I started swimming again after 30 years out of the pool (I'm 46) last April with a goal of being able to swim a mile, front crawl, with a single visit to the pool a week, for an hour each time. I saw it as a long term goal!

I started off breaststroke only first, and worked up to 2000m in an hour (took a couple of months!) and then started alternating front crawl with breaststroke and steadily increased the ratio of crawl up to 4:1.

In April this year I started starting each session by swimming crawl as far as I could, before switching to alternating crawl and breaststroke for the rest of the session. I think I managed 200m the first time...

Three weeks ago I was up to 1000m, last week was 1100m and yesterday I finally did 1700m - in 45 minutes.

Whoop! I'm finally strong enough to create a mile long bow wave to breath into - All the way I was one goggle in the water, one out, breathing bi-laterally. Pretty chuffed about that.

So: Advice

My stroke sucks. I don't have a good catch, I hardly kick, I find it hard to keep my elbows high and I don't think I pull far enough down towards my hips. I also tend to breath out explosively before I turn my head rather than trickling air - I can only breath "properly" for a few lengths before this breathing pattern starts for some reason - otherwise I have to stop swimming.

What should I work on first? My goal now is to ENJOY swimming a mile front crawl - I'm sure speed will come, but I'm still on that cliff edge of just about being able to sustain the swim, so what should I do first to step away from that edge?

[Scabutz]

The best advice is find a coach and get a 1-2-1 assessment. They will be able to see what you are doing wrong and give you drills and tips to correct it.

Without us seeing you it's hard to know what to say.

If you can't find a coach my chap does a remote analysis. You get a friend to record you and upload it to him and he will do a commentary over it with annotations.

[cwis]

Scabutz said:

The best advice is find a coach and get a 1-2-1 assessment. They will be able to see what you are doing wrong and give you drills and tips to correct it.

Without us seeing you it's hard to know what to say.

If you can't find a coach my chap does a remote analysis. You get a friend to record you and upload it to him and he will do a commentary over it with annotations.

I suppose I was after someone to put my perceived faults in order of what I should concentrate on

You're probably right - coaching is the way forward. I'll see if I can get someone at my pool to video me. Who's your chap, if you don't mind me asking?

[Scabutz]

cwis said:

I suppose I was after someone to put my perceived faults in order of what I should concentrate on

You're probably right - coaching is the way forward. I'll see if I can get someone at my pool to video me. Who's your chap, if you don't mind me asking?

My chap is here: https://www.greenlightpt.co.uk/remote-swim-analysi...

If you want to work on things yourself then the priority is sort your breathing out. Try a constant stream through your nose or look at the bubble bubble breathe drill. Next thing is to sort your body position out. Sounds like your head is in a pretty good position already with the split goggles but you need to make sure your legs aren't sinking. A strong kick is not a necessity for distance swimming, its mostly there to keep your legs high. You want a good flutter kick. A lot of beginners have a scissor kick which is like opening a parachute behind you. Side kick drill is good for developing a flutter kick.

Once you are breathing well and have a good position you can work on your catch. Thumb to thigh drill is good for extending the stroke and barrel reach drill are good for high elbows. You can google all those to find videos.

[cwis]

Scabutz said:

My chap is here: https://www.greenlightpt.co.uk/remote-swim-analysi...

If you want to work on things yourself then the priority is sort your breathing out. Try a constant stream through your nose or look at the bubble bubble breathe drill. Next thing is to sort your body position out. Sounds like your head is in a pretty good position already with the split goggles but you need to make sure your legs aren't sinking. A strong kick is not a necessity for distance swimming, its mostly there to keep your legs high. You want a good flutter kick. A lot of beginners have a scissor kick which is like opening a parachute behind you. Side kick drill is good for developing a flutter kick.

Once you are breathing well and have a good position you can work on your catch. Thumb to thigh drill is good for extending the stroke and barrel reach drill are good for high elbows. You can google all those to find videos.

Many thanks! I've tried bubble breathing and can only manage a few lengths - I get an urge for a large lungful of air to hold... I suppose it's a long ingrained habit of swimming holding my breath I've had from my youth...

If that's what I need to work on first - so be it. This is a long term project - I've put on 12Kg of shoulders to get this far...

[Richieboy3008]

I've been swimming about 3 times per week for the last 5 weeks after a 10 year gap.

I usually swim 2500m freestyle in about 43-44mins and have managed 5000m in 1hr 27m. But I've seemed to hit a wall.

I should probably start doing a few drills and speed work to build my stamina.

Does anyone have a good training Plan?