The Running Thread Vol 2

[smn159]

spikeyhead said:

I tore my calf on Saturday. It's ok to walk on now, trying to keep it elevated when I can. Any thoughts on best way to recovery?

Yep, I did mine a couple of years ago and re-injured it by doing too much too soon so be careful. What worked for me was;

1. let it settle such that the pain has gone during daily activities
2. Think about why it went - overuse / training error? Lack of strength? Shoes? What do you need to change?
3. Cross train for a few days, including weighted calf raises - 3x16 on each side
4. Test readiness to run - hopping / jumps etc - 6 mins only
5. Day after the test - first run should be 5-10 mins only. Aches are OK, sharp pain isn't
6. Add 5-10 mins to your run every other day until you get to 40 mins. Stop immediately and go back a step if you feel sharp pain / burning .
7. Once you reach 40 mins you're good to go again.

Aim is to progressively / slowly reload it rather than rest it once it's settled.

I use the above with all injuries and it's always worked well, whereas rest followed by a 5k tester usually ends in disappointment

[joshcowin]

I've had a few weeks of really good consistent training, think I have found a sweet spot of mileage and sessions.

Anyone got any marathon specific sessions they really like?!

Current sessions in the week:
Wed am - 3 x 3km 3 x 2km or 8km, 5km, 3km, 2km, usually 2 mins between sets
Friday pm - 4 x 7minutes 1 minute between sets
Weekend - I am adding 3 x 5km into my long runs at the weekends, helps me mentally as I feel like I really split the run up.

[Inspire]

I really love intervals and long runs. The latter because I can get really out into the countryside and see things I wouldn’t otherwise see! As the weather slowly gets better this is particularly good.

Thanks

Rob

[joshcowin]

Inspire said:

I really love intervals and long runs. The latter because I can get really out into the countryside and see things I wouldn’t otherwise see! As the weather slowly gets better this is particularly good.

Thanks

Rob

I completely agree, I got into cycling also but the other road users spoilt that for me!

I am really fortunate to live in a place that has countryside, coastal paths and well lit streets. The light and weather doesn't really limit me.

This weekend I ran a few well lit 5km laps until it got light then I picked up the dog and headed into the countryside for another hour.

[webstercivet]

joshcowin said:

I've had a few weeks of really good consistent training, think I have found a sweet spot of mileage and sessions.

Anyone got any marathon specific sessions they really like?!

Current sessions in the week:
Wed am - 3 x 3km 3 x 2km or 8km, 5km, 3km, 2km, usually 2 mins between sets
Friday pm - 4 x 7minutes 1 minute between sets
Weekend - I am adding 3 x 5km into my long runs at the weekends, helps me mentally as I feel like I really split the run up.

I've started following a Pfitzinger plan that everyone on r/AdvancedRunning seems to swear by. So this week is:
14km with 8km at lactate threshold pace (bit slower than 10k race pace)
8km recovery
16km aerobic (HR zone 3)
8km recovery
26km long run with 16km at marathon goal pace

Building up to:
13km with 5x600m at 5k race pace
19km long run
8km aerobic with 6x 100m strides
21km tune-up race
27km long run

So more focused on building mileage and getting used to running on tired legs than any super-intense workouts. Varying the routes and adding some off-road when it dries out should keep it fun.

[spikeyhead]

smn159 said:

Yep, I did mine a couple of years ago and re-injured it by doing too much too soon so be careful. What worked for me was;

1. let it settle such that the pain has gone during daily activities
2. Think about why it went - overuse / training error? Lack of strength? Shoes? What do you need to change?
3. Cross train for a few days, including weighted calf raises - 3x16 on each side
4. Test readiness to run - hopping / jumps etc - 6 mins only
5. Day after the test - first run should be 5-10 mins only. Aches are OK, sharp pain isn't
6. Add 5-10 mins to your run every other day until you get to 40 mins. Stop immediately and go back a step if you feel sharp pain / burning .
7. Once you reach 40 mins you're good to go again.

Aim is to progressively / slowly reload it rather than rest it once it's settled.

I use the above with all injuries and it's always worked well, whereas rest followed by a 5k tester usually ends in disappointment

thanks for the advice, I'll make sure I take it slowly.

I'm still not sure why it went, possibly just pushing on too hard in Parkrun on a little uphill stretch, but I'd warmed up properly and was already two thirds round when it went.

[Piginapoke]

spikeyhead said:

smn159 said:

Yep, I did mine a couple of years ago and re-injured it by doing too much too soon so be careful. What worked for me was;

1. let it settle such that the pain has gone during daily activities
2. Think about why it went - overuse / training error? Lack of strength? Shoes? What do you need to change?
3. Cross train for a few days, including weighted calf raises - 3x16 on each side
4. Test readiness to run - hopping / jumps etc - 6 mins only
5. Day after the test - first run should be 5-10 mins only. Aches are OK, sharp pain isn't
6. Add 5-10 mins to your run every other day until you get to 40 mins. Stop immediately and go back a step if you feel sharp pain / burning .
7. Once you reach 40 mins you're good to go again.

Aim is to progressively / slowly reload it rather than rest it once it's settled.

I use the above with all injuries and it's always worked well, whereas rest followed by a 5k tester usually ends in disappointment

thanks for the advice, I'll make sure I take it slowly.

I'm still not sure why it went, possibly just pushing on too hard in Parkrun on a little uphill stretch, but I'd warmed up properly and was already two thirds round when it went.

It’s always the uphills

Cycling helps with recovery from a torn calf, if you have a bike. As above, go very steady with your running rehab, or the new muscle fibres will just tear again,

[Smitters]

joshcowin said:

I've had a few weeks of really good consistent training, think I have found a sweet spot of mileage and sessions.

Anyone got any marathon specific sessions they really like?!

Current sessions in the week:
Wed am - 3 x 3km 3 x 2km or 8km, 5km, 3km, 2km, usually 2 mins between sets
Friday pm - 4 x 7minutes 1 minute between sets
Weekend - I am adding 3 x 5km into my long runs at the weekends, helps me mentally as I feel like I really split the run up.

I really like a few sessions which replicate marathon conditions, so if a long flat marathon, three or four of my long runs flat and boring so as to replicate the monotony of no rhythm change, or late hills in a long run, etc, etc,

I also like to alternate long runs between long easy and long with a harder finish. For me, the purpose of the hard finish is to run at marathon RPE/marathon HR range. The percentages climb very slowly because the runs will naturally get longer, so the distance covered by percentage also climbs. The purpose of these workouts is to see what my marathon pace really is and how it's changing. I go into a marathon with a wide window of pace/time-target and then hone that in as the race approaches so that I have realistic expectations and can set my pacing well. I appreciate you're pretty experienced, but others may like the explanation of why because, as we know, if you don't know why you're doing a session, you shouldn't be doing it!

So over eight weeks it would be, for example:

1) Long - final 25% distance at marathon effort
2) Long all easy
3) Long - final 30% distance at marathon effort
4) Recovery Long-ish
5) Long - final 30% distance at marathon effort
6) Long all easy
7) Long - final 35% distance at marathon effort
8) Recovery Long-ish

[joshcowin]

Smitters said:

I really like a few sessions which replicate marathon conditions, so if a long flat marathon, three or four of my long runs flat and boring so as to replicate the monotony of no rhythm change, or late hills in a long run, etc, etc,

I also like to alternate long runs between long easy and long with a harder finish. For me, the purpose of the hard finish is to run at marathon RPE/marathon HR range. The percentages climb very slowly because the runs will naturally get longer, so the distance covered by percentage also climbs. The purpose of these workouts is to see what my marathon pace really is and how it's changing. I go into a marathon with a wide window of pace/time-target and then hone that in as the race approaches so that I have realistic expectations and can set my pacing well. I appreciate you're pretty experienced, but others may like the explanation of why because, as we know, if you don't know why you're doing a session, you shouldn't be doing it!

So over eight weeks it would be, for example:

1) Long - final 25% distance at marathon effort
2) Long all easy
3) Long - final 30% distance at marathon effort
4) Recovery Long-ish
5) Long - final 30% distance at marathon effort
6) Long all easy
7) Long - final 35% distance at marathon effort
8) Recovery Long-ish

I like that, I am a big believer in making your training as race specific as possible! I have played around with adding 30mins of effort at the end of the long run.

I also like doing 1km intervals with 1 min jog recovery between each set as a long run, gets the legs going and builds confidence as you generally cover the miles/km pretty quickly!

[john2443]

I'm keeping an eye on Brighton Marathon Facebook page and see frequent posts from runners who say they've emailed days or weeks ago and had no reply and questions on FB that don't get answered.

Brighton used to be like that with the old company (who went bust and London have taken it over), I was expecting the service to improve with them in charge.

Interested to know if it's normal for big races to not reply efficiently, I only do smaller local events and then even though they're fully volunteer organised, replies are petty quick; do big events generally not care and expect if they ignore then you'll go away?

[Inspire]

john2443 said:

I'm keeping an eye on Brighton Marathon Facebook page and see frequent posts from runners who say they've emailed days or weeks ago and had no reply and questions on FB that don't get answered.

Brighton used to be like that with the old company (who went bust and London have taken it over), I was expecting the service to improve with them in charge.

Interested to know if it's normal for big races to not reply efficiently, I only do smaller local events and then even though they're fully volunteer organised, replies are petty quick; do big events generally not care and expect if they ignore then you'll go away?

I submitted my medical certificate for the Paris marathon back in October and only got a reply yesterday saying all was good with it. The reply was in English (just about) so I should be grateful for that I suppose!

Thanks

Rob

[redrabbit29]

Did a hill session last night for the first time, it was a long-ish hill so only 3 intervals - not sure on how beneficial this is but as I am coming back from a period of time off, I think anything helps:

Ran 1 mile warmup
rest
.....

Ran up the hill (0.25 mile)
Jogged slowly down the other side (0.16 mile)
Walked to start (3 minutes)

<repeat 3 times>

[naturals]

Inspire said:

I submitted my medical certificate for the Paris marathon back in October and only got a reply yesterday saying all was good with it. The reply was in English (just about) so I should be grateful for that I suppose!

Thanks

Rob

Thanks for the reminder - still need to get an appointment booked! How's the training going?

[irish boy]

redrabbit29 said:

Did a hill session last night for the first time, it was a long-ish hill so only 3 intervals - not sure on how beneficial this is but as I am coming back from a period of time off, I think anything helps:

Ran 1 mile warmup
rest
.....

Ran up the hill (0.25 mile)
Jogged slowly down the other side (0.16 mile)
Walked to start (3 minutes)

<repeat 3 times>

Hills pay the bills.

[bigandclever]

naturals said:

tim2100 said:

Also look at the BadBoy Running group. a full mix of athletes in there, from DNF'ing a 10k through to winning 100 miler events.

FYB!!! Glad there's another BBR listener on here. Great podcast.

Big thread swerve, but Hellard's looking for a Head of Marketing for Caffeine Bullet if anyone knows anyone.

hashtag I knew him before he was famous

[MesoForm]

redrabbit29 said:

Did a hill session last night for the first time, it was a long-ish hill so only 3 intervals - not sure on how beneficial this is but as I am coming back from a period of time off, I think anything helps:

Ran 1 mile warmup
rest
.....

Ran up the hill (0.25 mile)
Jogged slowly down the other side (0.16 mile)
Walked to start (3 minutes)

<repeat 3 times>

I think anything to break up running at a constant-ish pace over normal terrain is going to be beneficial - long slow runs, quick short runs, intervals, fartlek, hill repeats, hilly runs, etc. Just find which ones get you motivated to get out the house.
I think there's a limit with hills though - my club often make us run up a hill in Norwich ( Strava Segment) that has 30m of climb in 240m, some of the coaches don't really see the benefit for us slower runners and I'm inclined to agree with them.

[Inspire]

[/quote]

How's the training going?

[/quote]

6 weeks on Sunday!

Training has been broadly okay - I’ve got some minor aches and pains which I’ve been to the physio about but otherwise I’ve stuck to the training plan. I tend to use slightly longer training plans (the current one is 18 weeks) as I like the slower build-up.

How are you getting on?

Thanks

Rob

[naturals]

Inspire said:

How's the training going?

6 weeks on Sunday!

Training has been broadly okay - I’ve got some minor aches and pains which I’ve been to the physio about but otherwise I’ve stuck to the training plan. I tend to use slightly longer training plans (the current one is 18 weeks) as I like the slower build-up.

How are you getting on?

Thanks

Rob

Yeah, finally feel like I'm making some progress. I injured my knee and foot so I had to take a month out. Then just as I was almost back to 100% I managed to step on one of those Mexican Murder Bees while on holiday. My whole foot swelled up so that was another week out of action!

I was lucky enough to be in Paris with work last week so ran a fair bit of the marathon route. It's a great route so that was a significant positive motivator, even if I did go ass over tit part way around and returned to the hotel covered in blood and bruises.

Just got to hope the last few weeks go smoother and that the weather is favourable on the day!

[over_the_hill]

joshcowin said:

Smitters said:

I really like a few sessions which replicate marathon conditions, so if a long flat marathon, three or four of my long runs flat and boring so as to replicate the monotony of no rhythm change, or late hills in a long run, etc, etc,

I also like to alternate long runs between long easy and long with a harder finish. For me, the purpose of the hard finish is to run at marathon RPE/marathon HR range. The percentages climb very slowly because the runs will naturally get longer, so the distance covered by percentage also climbs. The purpose of these workouts is to see what my marathon pace really is and how it's changing. I go into a marathon with a wide window of pace/time-target and then hone that in as the race approaches so that I have realistic expectations and can set my pacing well. I appreciate you're pretty experienced, but others may like the explanation of why because, as we know, if you don't know why you're doing a session, you shouldn't be doing it!

So over eight weeks it would be, for example:

1) Long - final 25% distance at marathon effort
2) Long all easy
3) Long - final 30% distance at marathon effort
4) Recovery Long-ish
5) Long - final 30% distance at marathon effort
6) Long all easy
7) Long - final 35% distance at marathon effort
8) Recovery Long-ish

I like that, I am a big believer in making your training as race specific as possible! I have played around with adding 30mins of effort at the end of the long run.

I also like doing 1km intervals with 1 min jog recovery between each set as a long run, gets the legs going and builds confidence as you generally cover the miles/km pretty quickly!

That's a good approach alternating the runs as "all easy" and tempo based.

They don't all necessarily need to be "long" long though. Otherwise you can find that you are spending most of the week
recovering from one long run just in time for the next one.

For club athletes I would work on a 3-4 week cycle on the long runs so something like

shorter
medium
medium
long

then on the next cycle

shorter + a bit
medium + a bit
medium + a bit
long + a bit

to slowly build up the miles.

The 3-4 weeks also tends to fit in with XC league races so get the cycle above tuned into the races and depending
if the race is Saturday or Sunday you can either skip the shorter one or do it "all easy" the next day.

Rather than marathon effort at the end you can alternate marathon pace and easy e.g.
2-3m easy to get going, 4 x (2m at MP, 2m easy) and that's 18m with MP work included.
Also MP deep in the run so your body gets used to what that feels like.
There are plenty of other variations you could do like - 2-3m easy then 6 x (1m MP, 1m easy) - I'm sure you get the idea.

[over_the_hill]

redrabbit29 said:

Did a hill session last night for the first time, it was a long-ish hill so only 3 intervals - not sure on how beneficial this is but as I am coming back from a period of time off, I think anything helps:

Ran 1 mile warmup
rest
.....

Ran up the hill (0.25 mile)
Jogged slowly down the other side (0.16 mile)
Walked to start (3 minutes)

<repeat 3 times>

You get a lot of bang for your buck out of hills.

They develop leg strength and power due to running against the resistance of the hill.
They generally help with developing running form and technique leading to better efficiency.
You get a good cardio work-out - even if not running that fast - because it's still hard work. You are running up a hill !!

All three of these will lead to faster running.

To develop the above you could e.g. do
2 x hill then instead of 3 mins have a 5min very easy jog and repeat 2 x hill
When you are ready you can then go for 2 sets of 3 x hill.

They don't have to be mad crazy flat out sprints - just controlled strong running.
Keep the arms pumping, as strong fast arms lead to strong fast legs.
Look up and forward (don't bend or hunch over) so your chest stays open - easier breathing.

By breaking the session into sets you only have to "hang on" for a few before you get a longer break and can then come
into the next set more recovered and ready to go again.